Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

[Nø Ca$h]

i go by "irony" now lol. where, kage? =]

 

[lordvaati]

Speaking of low tiers overestimating matchups, I believe pika v ganon is 5-5

Really in this matchup Pika's movement speed and ability to combo medium-weight chars, and Ganon's lack of a quick aerial (uair does alright, but doesn't have quite the hitbox needed) really hurts him in this. Ganon's hitting pikachu three times and he dies really hurts Pika, but that's mainly why it's even.

Ganon's hurtbox is huge, his aerial and ground mobility is lacking, and the majority of his moves are slow (though they cover a large area). Pika sometimes has a little trouble getting in, but his jolt and dashdance game is often enough. Once he's in and gets a grab/rising uair/whatever, Ganon is combo bait. And once Ganon's off the edge, Pika has very little trouble edgeguarding him. Jolts/aerials prevent ganon from recovering low, uair spike prevents him from recovering high. Pika has no such troubles recovering against Ganon, as the versatility of your upB makes it difficult or often impossible to cover all your recovery options, even with good reactions. Ganon also has relative difficulty catching Pika (unless he has a master ball, pokejoke!) and relies mostly on punishing pika's approaches to get damage. But the great thing is, pika rarely has to approach Ganon, he can just dash dance and throw jolts outside of Ganon's range until he sees an opening (granted yes it's then on the Ganon to seemingly create openings when there isn't really one, mindgames, but he doesn't really have much to do this with).

On Ganon's side, Pika dies early. You really only need to get like 4-5 solid hits (3 on yoshi's) and Pika is dead. Pika's a relatively small (and fast) character though, so he can get under and around a lot of Ganon's moves. Ganon can CG Pika, and a grab sometimes means a stock, it's just getting that grab is really difficult for Ganon. His wavelanding game helps with mobility some, but usually he has to jump up to a platform to do this, putting him above pika, which is often where he doesn't want to be (pika's uair is faster than anything ganon has and sets him up nicely to be combo'd, pika's usmash is brutal, etc).

From my perspective it relies a lot on Pika just being somewhat familiar with the matchup and not run/jumping into Ganon's aerials. If he does, he dies fast. But if he's patient, I don't really see much that Ganon has to shut down Pika. He's just too slow.

not really Surprising, considering how similar the matchup is to Pika vs. Cap.

also, LOL Master Ball.

 

[N64]

It's not that similar to pika vs. Falcon outside of edgeguarding honestly. Falcon falls faster, is slightly smaller, and a hell of a lot faster (with generally a drop in damage).

but pika dooooes do well against both.

 

[unknown522]

Ganon also has relative difficulty catching Pika (unless he has a master ball, pokejoke!)

Lol, make sure to duplicate master balls, because that's a waste.

lol, you can use a dusk ball in daylight and it'll still catch pikachu.

But anyways, yeah, pika seems to do pretty well in the matchup.

How'd guini beat axe though?

 

[Divinokage]

lol, you can use a dusk ball in daylight and it'll still catch pikachu.

But anyways, yeah, pika seems to do pretty well in the matchup.

How'd guini beat axe though?

Ganon is not as slow as people make it seem. He throws out moves just as fast as Falcon.. it's just his running speed that sucks. He can also waveland much further than Falcon gaining a bit more surprise attacks options. Guini beat him probably with a lot of throws and jabs, and perhaps tilts for spacing.. N64 forgot that Ganon's jab is ******** good. =P And backjump Fair never fails. If Pikachu wants to play a ground game, im pretty sure Ganon has the advantage as Jolts are easily avoidable. Jab, Ftilt angled down with downtilt pokes out ranges anything pikachu has.

 

[KirbyKaze]

What's worse is that Kage's game almost entirely revolves around reads. If he tries to read me I'll wreck him, I'm too good at manipulating reads

I would just like to say that today, among other things, I had to brine an 18 pound turkey in my kitchen sink because I didn't have any sort of pot of bucket big enough for it. It was a grueling process, because my kitchen is riddled with failure, and I had to make about 3 gallons of brine. I also needed multiple ice trays to keep it cold overnight.

This brightened my day. Immensely.

God bless you, Virusbluemage.

 

[x After Dawn x]

I would just like to say that today, among other things, I had to brine an 18 pound turkey in my kitchen sink because I didn't have any sort of pot of bucket big enough for it. It was a grueling process, because my kitchen is riddled with failure, and I had to make about 3 gallons of brine. I also needed multiple ice trays to keep it cold overnight.

This brightened my day. Immensely.

God bless you, Virusbluemage.

I didn't have to brine any turkey because my grandma does it for my family. =)

Happy thanksgiving weekend to any Canadians in this thread. Enjoy your milk in bags, EC. >.>

 

[Divinokage]

Yayuzzz son, time to get high and drunk! lolll!

 

[N64]

Ganon is not as slow as people make it seem. He throws out moves just as fast as Falcon.. it's just his running speed that sucks. He can also waveland much further than Falcon gaining a bit more surprise attacks options. Guini beat him probably with a lot of throws and jabs, and perhaps tilts for spacing.. N64 forgot that Ganon's jab is ******** good. =P And backjump Fair never fails. If Pikachu wants to play a ground game, im pretty sure Ganon has the advantage as Jolts are easily avoidable. Jab, Ftilt angled down with downtilt pokes out ranges anything pikachu has.

Jab is pretty good for Ganon, and angled ftilts are probably better. Jab doesn't scare me much, Pika isn't often approaching at an angle threatened by it, and if I do get hit by a jab it's a lot less punishing than anything else Ganon has. Ftilt though, downangled ftilt hurts pika's ground game, and up angled ftilts can hit his shffl'd approaches. It's pretty decent against pika.

But the main thing in this matchup is Pika doesn't often have to approach Ganon. On YS/BF/FoD Pika doesn't have to approach traditionally much, since he's right next to Ganon anyways. On larger stages he can jolt relatively safely. And yeah they're somewhat easy to avoid, but he can just keep doing it. If you shield them all, Pika's going to grab you. If you jump over them, now Pika's below you and uairing you until you're off the stage. If you try and jab/ftilt clank all of them, Pika's going to dtilt/aerial you in the slight lag after it. But of course Ganon will mix these options around to keep Pika guessing and Pika will have to guess right. But if I'm unsure, I just won't follow up and I'll throw another jolt.

Also yeah wavelands add a lot to Ganon's game against Pika and watching Ganons like Tipman/Renth/Rockcrock etc. has made me question my thoughts on this matchup the most, because it does give Ganon some approach options vs. Pika. But even after playing Renth and Rockcrock, Ganon still seemed relatively easy to get around and get away from when I needed to.

I'm not arguing for advantage Pika, because it isn't, and I'll grumble and accept 6-4 Ganon if no one agrees. But of Pika's matchups at least, I feel this is one of the most even ones he has.

 

[Divinokage]

Well to me in general, Pika has weak capitalizing options for punishing when comparing to Ganon. It's like Pika has to work a lot harder to get combos and one mistake can lead to ouch.. but if neither makes a mistake then maybe it could be an even matchup? I dont know.. lol.

 

[N64]

Yeah, i'll agree pika has to work more. Once he catches Ganon, he has to keep on him and not give him any space to get back on ground and recomposed, while Ganon just has to bair/fair etc. But, Pika has plenty of option and ability to follow Ganon when he does start. It may take 4 Pika aerials to match 1 Ganon aerial, but most Pika juggles on Ganon will be at least that much anyhow.

 

[Dorsey]

it's dead at work and this was just too hilarious to not respond to:

virus "everyone knows your style kage, you tech chase and read where people roll, and you predict people in the air"

Funniest **** i've read on here in a longgggggg time. Kage has a lot of tournament experience.... and from your post, virus, key things about being a good player seem to go right over your head. You seem to lack knowledge of, or basically totally disregard the mind-gaming around aerial hitboxes, when both players are familiar with the match-up and prioritization. aka spacing..........

And getting tech chased and getting read is just a part of playing a decent ganon, let alone the person who you're talking **** too. I live with this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnXY5HAIGNg , resulting me to have solid anti-ganon game, being it's where all my practice is put in to. Even with constantly switching up my techs and DI, dependent on the situation, I still get read plenty. Saying that you can completely manipulate the situation just shows how these concepts of the game are totally foreign ground to you.

edit:

random question VBM... tell me how you, yourself, avoid getting tech-chased by ganon's wizard's foot after getting up(whatever maneuver) from a dthrow?

 

[wool]

I have a lot of experience on Ganon vs Pika (though my Pika and the ganon I play isn't that great lol)

On large stages like FD, like N64 said (lol about the pokejoke btw haha), I just keep spamming jolt. I mean yeah, they are really easy to avoid, but the ganon is going to want to approach soon, or the ganon will leave an opening that I will try and capitalize on. Spamming jolt and spacing is easier than dodging them and spacing. So I dont think the problem is getting a grab/rising uair/nair in. The problem is continuing the combo and not getting hit out. This is where your "freak out pikachu" skills come in. But seriously, what tends to happen with me is that I do very well until about 60ish% then the ganon gets one uair in and I am in trouble. On a stage like FD its definitely easier to avoid getting hit again by the ganon (though there are some techchase mindgames here). Finishing Ganon is the same as finishing anyone else. Uair spike, usmash, usmash-thunder.

On YS and similar stages, Pika (and ganon for the matter) should both avoid approaching. Here for Pikachu I think he should do anything to get that uair and place Ganon above. If Pika can do that and keep the ganon above him (which isn't too hard, although there are some mindgames in the techchases) Pika is OK. KOing the Ganon here would probably involve a uair->thunder, or a uairspike (or even a usmash). I think Ganon should try not to be above Pika, but should try and stop Pika from getting that first uair with tilts, uairs, and retreating fairs. If the ganon gets a hit and puts Pika above him, it is bad news for the Pika. Since the playstyle is pretty similar it is why I also think it is a 50-50 (maybe 55-45 ganon since there is more leeway room for Ganon and less for Pika).

 

[Virusbluemage]

Dorsey you completely miswrote the quote. What I was saying was more specific and far less generic that the non-sense you wrote. The concepts of the game aren't foreign to me, you simply just do't understand what it's like to be good; manipulating reads is entirely possible but I think that is something you'll have to experience to understand.

And are you asking me for advice(this is so cute); if you're down grabbed there are few ways to escpae the down b, but I think the easiest and best one for you would be to simply lay there on the ground. If he Wizard foots, you can just get up attack him out of it, if he does anything else you should be able to roll away(get up attacking may sometimes be a better option if he tries to air attack you though); it's pretty simple however a good Ganon should be expecting something like this, so it's going to take timing and some tact.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Ignoring all the trash. I would like to hear from the IC players how they would fight the style of Fox I was talking about without an answer that says "mind game them". I posted a few pages back, please read it.

You don't need to show videos but explain why your stuff works and if you have examples then that's better. >_> I think the match up is 65-35 for Fox. I hear alot of people saying it's even, and I'm willing to support my claim... convince me otherwise.

Somehow I feel that post I made earlier will be wasted even though it brought up some valid crap people aren't thinking of.

I missed this post, this thread is getting difficult to read through. :/

You made the point that ICs punishment game is not as good as Fox's because Nana will be dead most of the time. I disagree; in order for Nana to be dead, Fox needs to land the determining hit. If Fox lands the hit, Nana probably dies; if ICs land the hit, Fox probably dies. What then determines the killing advantage is each character's ability to land this hit.

If Fox is going to play the platform game and chip away with shines, it makes him harder to hit, but I don't think it gives him a distinct advantage. ICs are capable of controlling the platforms with u-airs from the middle of the stage. Fox's shines don't lead into gimps from this position, and in order to be able to kill he has to commit to coming off the platforms anyways.

Three of my crewmates play Fox, and we've played enough that they're not inexperienced in the match-up.

On a side note, Chu beat Jman in tournament yesterday at Shell Shocked.

 

[Virusbluemage]

On a side note, Chu beat Jman in tournament yesterday at Shell Shocked.

Yay, Chu just needs to get rid of his rust and start practicing again. He is a better player than Jman.

 

[unknown522]

I'm not arguing for advantage Pika, because it isn't, and I'll grumble and accept 6-4 Ganon if no one agrees. But of Pika's matchups at least, I feel this is one of the most even ones he has.

Good, grumble and take your 6-4.

Nah, I'm joking. You have some good arguements and it's inderstandable why you would say that.

Kage: @ pound 3, I want to grab you for an hour for ganon practice. Or at ROM 2 if I manage to go.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

hey are we saying fox vs ice climbers is on FD or what? it's big deal on which stage for them

 

[Europhoria]

I missed this post, this thread is getting difficult to read through. :/

You made the point that ICs punishment game is not as good as Fox's because Nana will be dead most of the time. I disagree; in order for Nana to be dead, Fox needs to land the determining hit. If Fox lands the hit, Nana probably dies; if ICs land the hit, Fox probably dies. What then determines the killing advantage is each character's ability to land this hit.

If Fox is going to play the platform game and chip away with shines, it makes him harder to hit, but I don't think it gives him a distinct advantage. ICs are capable of controlling the platforms with u-airs from the middle of the stage. Fox's shines don't lead into gimps from this position, and in order to be able to kill he has to commit to coming off the platforms anyways.

Three of my crewmates play Fox, and we've played enough that they're not inexperienced in the match-up.

On a side note, Chu beat Jman in tournament yesterday at Shell Shocked.

Once Fox lands a shine he's basically fighting a single climber. The shines gimp from that safe position because once he gets a shine in he can afford to come off the platform and commit to something else; the Climbers will be on defense letting him do whatever, or I guess Popo could trade a 13% damage move for Nana's entire stock if they wanna try to be aggressive or attack at that point

Fox can also dash dance on the ground and just run in whatever if the ICs go into shield/jump/open themselves and when the ICs come to him he can hop on a platform and run/be safe and the punish the fact that the ICs approached. Even in that scenario if they ICs aim for the platform Fox can waveland into shield and punish.

 

[Dorsey]

Dorsey you completely miswrote the quote. What I was saying was more specific and far less generic that the non-sense you wrote. The concepts of the game aren't foreign to me, you simply just do't understand what it's like to be good; manipulating reads is entirely possible but I think that is something you'll have to experience to understand.

And are you asking me for advice(this is so cute); if you're down grabbed there are few ways to escpae the down b, but I think the easiest and best one for you would be to simply lay there on the ground. If he Wizard foots, you can just get up attack him out of it, if he does anything else you should be able to roll away(get up attacking may sometimes be a better option if he tries to air attack you though); it's pretty simple however a good Ganon should be expecting something like this, so it's going to take timing and some tact.

No, I wasn't asking you for advice. The wizard's foot can be timed to cover more than one option(tech roll away, tech in place, no tech, and usually clanks with a get-up attack, often still overriding it). You were totally ignorant to that fact in your assessment. lol @ 'people call me the ganon slayer'.

And yeah, the first paragraph was just as stupid.

 

[Divinokage]

No, I wasn't asking you for advice. The wizard's foot can be timed to cover more than one option(tech roll away, tech in place, no tech, and usually clanks with a get-up attack, often still overriding it). You were totally ignorant to that fact in your assessment. lol @ 'people call me the ganon slayer'.

And yeah, the first paragraph was just as stupid.

Well first off whatever logic VBM has, I have no idea but in general I don't follow "logic" because if I did I would be limited by it which is why it can create a top player skill level. It helps to create your own style and continue to push forward whatever the odds are. This is also why I sound unreasonable on the boards when I talk theory, I don't know the limits, I just play believeing in victory at all times, =P.

So ya, VBM is gonna get ***** completely, can't wait to see that.. his reaction to truth and broken spirit.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Are you trying to say that we take account for the fact that stages in a real set are chosen the majority of the time, and that some matchups (from a tournament perspective) have a strategy for winning a set that isnt represented when you take it out of context. If so, i agree. Take peach and puff, they have really good counterpick stages and do better than the chart suggests in sets because they only have to win on 1 neutral while a marth has to win on 3.

I always thought the 100 point system was essentially an easier way of explaining how much better than the other player you would have to play to win set. For example, 60-40 sheik vs marth. People have an idea in their head about how hard that is. Next time someone says a match-up is 60-40 you think to the sheik vs marth match-up, and you evaluate them relative to each other. The match-up chart is relative to itself. To say pichu vs fox is 5-95 means its just REALLY hard and pichu has to play a LOT better than fox to win (tbh though, i think that 15-85 is the lowest match-up this game actually has).

Before people throw in tournament results I want to say that "skill" doesn't necessarily transfer from match-up to match-up, as a player. Some players just know certain match-ups a lot better than others. Just because one top level player loses against a certain character a lot, it does not mean that the match-up is bad, nor does one top level player winning in a certain match-up often mean its good. Players lose by being out-smarted. Ken was #1 in the world when sheik was the most common tournament character.

i'm not sure if this got read or got lost in the spam of virusbluemage.

guys, just ignore him. don't feed the troll.

 

[Virusbluemage]

No, I wasn't asking you for advice. The wizard's foot can be timed to cover more than one option(tech roll away, tech in place, no tech, and usually clanks with a get-up attack, often still overriding it). You were totally ignorant to that fact in your assessment. lol @ 'people call me the ganon slayer'.

And yeah, the first paragraph was just as stupid.

Lol, you're dumb. You didn't get what I was saying at all. The timing of the Wizard's foot is irrelevant, what matters is your timing. Ganon can't jab reset so to take you of the ground he has to commit to something at which time you can roll away(don't tech at all stupid); and for most characters if timed correctly your get up attack will either clank with the Wizard's foot or override it. Learn the game n00b.

@Sveet: I'm not a troll, if you keep calling me names I will report you.

 

[Divinokage]

Alright this is the last time I'm replying to you, Ganon can't jab reset but you can combo into a jab, to force a no tech into Fair.. and also yes timing matters, the game doesn't revolve around how you do all the time. If you roll away I can fair which usually happens to people, if you get up attack I can downair, if you roll inside, I can downair or backfist techchase. And even if I miss my timing with downair when you try to get up attack, I can see it and instead of doing downair I can air dodge away from the attack and grab you or punish you again. The get up attack does not override the down B unless you get him in the back.. down B techchase is ok but it s a little risky, pretty much have to use it as soon as you see the opponent do something but down B techchase is extremely hard to do on reaction.. it's not reliable.

 

[Virusbluemage]

Alright this is the last time I'm replying to you, Ganon can't jab reset but you can combo into a jab, to force a no tech into Fair.. and also yes timing matters, the game doesn't revolve around how you do all the time. If you roll away I can fair which usually happens to people, if you get up attack I can downair, if you roll inside, I can downair or backfist techchase. And even if I miss my timing with downair when you try to get up attack, I can see it and instead of doing downair I can air dodge away from the attack and grab you or punish you again. The get up attack does not override the down B unless you get him in the back.. down B techchase is ok but it s a little risky, pretty much have to use it as soon as you see the opponent do something but down B techchase is extremely hard to do on reaction.. it's not reliable.

You don't have to reply to me, I'm not trying argue with you; I'm just explaining how you're wrong. You also don't seem to understand my point. If I'm on the ground you have to commit to get me up. No sensible player(I sure as hell won't) is going to roll away so you can fair them or get up attack so you can Dair them. I would just lie to the ground until you commit to something and then either roll away or time my get up attack. It really is that simple, tell me how you would go about coutering that? Sadly there is nothing Ganon can do.

And about the get up attack overriding the Wizard's foot, it's all about timing, you do it right before he hits you and you'll knock him out of it. It's not that easy to do but it's something I have mastered. Also I'm pretty sure that not every character can do this, but fortunately all the character I used against Ganon can ^_^

 

[Divinokage]

ok I can just stay away and downtilt gg. If you want to play a guessing game with me, you'll lose because you'll be too scared vs the warrior.

 

[Virusbluemage]

When you down tilt I can roll away. I've ***** Ganons so many times that it's my most comfortable match up, there is no way I'll be afraid of you. And all of the internet trash talk won't change that.

 

[Dorsey]

This kid knows nothing about ganon, or smash in general. I'm done. It's going to be funny when you don't make it out of pools

 

[idea]

why can't the ganon stand still?

if you getup attack - ganon shieldgrabs
lie still - nothing happens; you'd better be at a percentage lead =P
roll in either direction - techchase fair or bair
stand up in place - do anything

but i guess it's possible that every time you are lying down, kage messes up and you make the correct decision <_<

Happy thanksgiving weekend to any Canadians in this thread. Enjoy your milk in bags, EC. >.>

MMMMM MILK AND TURKEY

I have no idea but in general I don't follow "logic"

if i can figure out how not to make it displace my gif, i might sig this. =P

 

[Cosmo!]

zelda vs falco/marth is WAY EASIER than vs sheik.

those matchups are more like 4/6 if sheik is 2/8.

 

[Virusbluemage]

This kid knows nothing about ganon, or smash in general. I'm done. It's going to be funny when you don't make it out of pools

Lol and you will? I still find it funny how when peple can't make a decent argument they just say ''he doesn't know what he's talking about'' I've already stated before that it just makes you look stupid so I won't bother to do it again.

Appearantly Chu Dat beat Jman and Cactuar yesterday. I believe they are considered the two best Fox mains so if Chu can beat them then it must mean ICs vs Fox isn't that bad of a matchup after all.

 

[Virgilijus]

I am reminded of a certain Sora Keyblade Master.

Please don't tell me I am the only one that remembers him.

 

[Strong Badam]

Virusbluemage's posts

You can't react in time to avoid a tech-chase or read, that's why it's called a tech-chase/read. It isn't possible. Post videos, place well in large tournaments, or play high-level players who will vouch for you that any of this **** works, or please leave this thread so actual progress can be made. You most likely wouldn't beat Kage; most people wouldn't. Kage has beaten Jiano, KoreanDJ, Azen, Jman, and many more high level players, as well as placing consistently well (top 4 almost every time) whenever he attends a tournament in his country, and places highly here in America as well. On the other hand, you have accomplished absolutely nothing of significance to convince us otherwise that you are a skilled and knowledgeable player who knows what he is talking about, because no one has agreed with just about anything you have said so far. My post will likely fall on deaf ears, considering your previous posts in this thread, but you know, whatever.

Appearantly Chu Dat beat Jman and Cactuar yesterday. I believe they are considered the two best Fox mains so if Chu can beat them then it must mean ICs vs Fox isn't that bad of a matchup after all.

This argument also doesn't work, because it is a reflection on Chu Dat's superior skill at the IC's vs. Fox match-up than Jman and Cactuar's skill in the same match-up. Axe beating Jman with Pikachu doesn't mean that Pikachu vs. Fox is even, or in Pika's favor, it means that the Axe vs. Jman match-up in that instance was even or in Axe's favor. Following your logic, Jigglypuff has a 100-0 match-up against every character except Peach and somewhat Falcon because Mango hasn't lost a set against anyone since Pound 3 other than Armada and Silentspectre, where he then proceeded to 3-2 and 3-0 Armada, and 6-0 SS. Please, don't be stupid.

 

[otg]

This thread should just get closed.

 

[Virusbluemage]

You can't react in time to avoid a tech-chase or read, that's why it's called a tech-chase/read. It isn't possible. Post videos, place well in large tournaments, or play high-level players who will vouch for you that any of this **** works, or please leave this thread so actual progress can be made. You most likely wouldn't beat Kage; most people wouldn't. Kage has beaten Jiano, KoreanDJ, Azen, Jman, and many more high level players, as well as placing consistently well (top 4 almost every time) whenever he attends a tournament in his country, and places highly here in America as well. On the other hand, you have accomplished absolutely nothing of significance to convince us otherwise that you are a skilled and knowledgeable player who knows what he is talking about, because no one has agreed with just about anything you have said so far. My post will likely fall on deaf ears, considering your previous posts in this thread, but you know, whatever..

Can people actually read posts instead of assuming idiocy? I never said anything about reacting to a tech cahse or read, everything I said was about timing. You lie on the ground and you wait for Ganon to do something, contratry to the stupidity you just posted you are the one reacting to him, not the other way around. Kage may very well be a better player than me, but I'm certain I can beat him because as I said, I **** Ganons. However Kage is a it overrated because of his palcement at rom1; KDJ has been retired for over, Azen had been retired over 6 months and Jman is vastly overrated. Kage placing top 4 in his country means nothing. Since 2007 I have always placed top 2 in my country , please don't be retardeed and assume that because you haven't heard of me it means I haven't accomplished anything. You haven't herd of me because you are the sterotypical ignorant american smasher who knows nothing of the Smash scene outside of developed countries.

This argument also doesn't work, because it is a reflection on Chu Dat's superior skill at the IC's vs. Fox match-up than Jman and Cactuar's skill in the same match-up. Axe beating Jman with Pikachu doesn't mean that Pikachu vs. Fox is even, or in Pika's favor, it means that the Axe vs. Jman match-up in that instance was even or in Axe's favor. Following your logic, Jigglypuff has a 100-0 match-up against every character except Peach and somewhat Falcon because Mango hasn't lost a set against anyone since Pound 3 other than Armada and Silentspectre, where he then proceeded to 3-2 and 3-0 Armada, and 6-0 SS. Please, don't be stupid.

I was in no way, form or fashion implying it means the match up was in ICs fover. If you took the time to read the thread you would see that Euphoria stated that there is nothing an ICs player can do against a great Fox because his agility and shine locks down all the options the ICs can use. I was just pointing out that Chu did beat great Foxes therefore the match up cannot be as bad as he is insisting. And you're dumb for assuming it means Chu knows that match up better, Jman and Cactuar could have known the match up just as well but Chu was still able to win because the match up doesn't favor Fox that greatly. Quit using *** logic n00b.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Somebody ban Virusbluemage again already, honestly.

 

[Europhoria]

as well as placing consistently well (top 4 almost every time) whenever he attends a tournament in his country, and places highly here in America as well.

Kage does better in the states then here, it's largely because people don't just "who the hell is ganon?" then do stupid things.

 

[wool]

I was in no way, form or fashion implying it means the match up was in ICs fover. If you took the time to read the thread you would see that Euphoria stated that there is nothing an ICs player can do against a great Fox because his agility and shine locks down all the options the ICs can use. I was just pointing out that Chu did beat great Foxes therefore the match up cannot be as bad as he is insisting. And you're dumb for assuming it means Chu knows that match up better, Jman and Cactuar could have known the match up just as well but Chu was still able to win because the match up doesn't favor Fox that greatly. Quit using *** logic n00b.

Lol? I already went through this with you. Just because Chu as Pikachu beat Cort as Peach or whoever it was DOESN'T mean that Pika vs Peach is even (or close to even)!!!!!!!! Just because one person beat someone once doesn't prove anything. IF Pika's all over the place are beating Peaches all over the place (and they are at the same or about the same skill level) then you what you say would make sense. Chu did know the matchup better than Jman and Cactuar at the time. That's why he won. Not because ICs are close to even with Fox.

With your logic you are saying that all character upsets mean that the matchup is even. Which is just plain out wrong.

 

[Virusbluemage]

Lol? I already went through this with you. Just because Chu as Pikachu beat Cort as Peach or whoever it was DOESN'T mean that Pika vs Peach is even (or close to even)!!!!!!!! Just because one person beat someone once doesn't prove anything. IF Pika's all over the place are beating Peaches all over the place (and they are at the same or about the same skill level) then you what you say would make sense. Chu did know the matchup better than Jman and Cactuar at the time. That's why he won. Not because ICs are close to even with Fox.

With your logic you are saying that all character upsets mean that the matchup is even. Which is just plain out wrong.

I was gonna write a long post but I'll keep it short. What you fail to understand is that this is not just one person vs another. These are the best persons maining that character. What it basically means is that ICs at the hieght of their metagame, can whup Foxes at the height of thier metagame. Really I'm not sure other players matter because it means that when ICs are used at their best they beat Fox at his best. Of course Chu won't win every match against Jman or Cactuar but it does support the notion that the match up isn't that great in Fox fovor. The match up chart is supposed to relfect the height of a character's metagame, scrubs don't count, you need to remember that.

Kage does better in the states then here, it's largely because people don't just "who the hell is ganon?" then do stupid things.

Quoted for truth. Also Americans are starting to learn Ganondorf so Kage won't be doing as well anymore. He still is a very godo player though.

 

[Divinokage]

Kage does better in the states then here, it's largely because people don't just "who the hell is ganon?" then do stupid things.

No this fails.. because one.. the Top 3-4 in EC are spacies + Peach and I have bad matchups so the odds are I will lose to a spacie 60% of the time. And another thing, it's you like you are saying that I have no knowledge about any matchup whatsoever. I think I have enough experience to say that I know every matchup very well, maybe except Falco but even then I can hold my own vs any player.