Melee Counterpick Stages Debate

[JFox]

Mods, please don't move this thread. It is important that our local community debate this out because the local tournaments are the ones that want to bring about change, and the local community should have a voice.

As many of you know, there is a heated debate going on right now about counterpick stages in melee. Some say the entire system is unfair, and that counterpick stages (non-neutrals) should all be banned, leaving only the 6 neutral stages (FD, PS, DL64, FoD, BF, YS)

Others say that this is a very extreme move, and that only a small percent of the melee community feels this way. Those against are mostly for the opinion that a revision of the non-neutrals is necessary, but to take them all out entirely is unfair to players/characters who use them.

This debate has already begun, and tournaments have already taken a firm stance. If you wish to fight to have yourself heard, do it here instead of in the tournament threads. Perhaps a compromise can come between the two camps. Remember that the melee community is small as it is, and dividing ourselves because of the rules is only going to hurt all of us.

 

[Eggm]

Actually Kongo jungle is also on and you strike out until you have 1 stage left the 1st round.

Also since pound 4 is banning mute city and green greens (Which should be banned anyway since it has item carriers with random bombs in them) we are really debating over keeping the other 5 CP stages in play or not. Those stages are pokefloats, jungle japes, rainbow cruise, brinstar, and corneria.

Continuing the argument from my tournament thraed :

Even spammer has admitted to losing once even tho he thought he should have wno and that he was the better player. But spammer has attended about 1/4 of the tournaments of the normal smasher. So he has had less chance for this to happen to him. Not to mention he misses the national level tournaments more often than most the others. He has had less of a chance to play players who might have been closer to his level from other regions just to lose to some dumb thing similar to the klap trap thing he described to take him out and make him feel like maybe luck on a CP stage made him lose or win. So I feel like his opnion can't be taken as highly as some one who more regularly has to deal with CP stages on the tournament stage. Which btw is even more ridiculous if you pay high amounts of money to travel the country and pay higher entry fees just to be taken out by something really silly. I haven't gotten a chance to read the rest of his ridiculous super multiquoted response and repond to it, but maybe later I will.

 

[pockyD]

i'm curious about why you even bother to keep the 6-7 stages instead of simply dictating that all matches in the tournament will be played on dreamland or something like that

if you're trying to make it "fair", take it all the way. continuing to keep 7 stages after removing 7 already is just a half-*** attempt

 

[LLDL]

Just be good enough to win the match, regardless of what stage you play, and this won't be an issue. :3 The stage shouldn't make the player.

 

[Pakman]

This is what I don't get. Not counting Jungle Japes klaptrapping me on multiple occasions and the one time doyoung rested my shield when he was at last stock 90% and I was at last stock 0% and I got pushed off the stage and couldn't jump and died, I have never lost on a counterpick stage because of the stage itself. I've only lost to getting outplayed either because the other other person just played better than me that match or because I was playing like trash. Maybe I'm missing something, and if I am I apologize but no one in favor of banning them has said anything regarding this, but I don't really see what's unfair about the counterpick stages. I remember taking Jason to last stock on Battlefield at SPOC and then getting 4 stocked on Floats .

Yeah so you never lost a match you shouldn't have on counterpicks except those few you already specified, but let's look at this from another angle. I am sure there have been times where you have beaten someone who was statistically better than you on a cp stage...... *cough vidjo*cough.

No offense but, M2K is a fair amount better than you. I don't think that is a good example.

I ESPECIALLY don't see why people get mad about Peach and counterpick stages. She is so terrible that she has CLEARLY abysmal matchups against every top tier and even loses to numerous LOW tiers. Is it really asking that much for Peach to be allowed to be 1% of a character one match in a set? I don't think so.

Spammer for real if you want to argue without sounding like a douche, stay away from hyperbole. Peach is way better than Yoshi Luigi Bowser and like 10 other characters. She is like between 6-8 on the tier list.

Why can't we throw Bowser and Pichu, who are much worse, a bone and make like Brinstar depths legal?</Sarcasm>

A peach player CLEARLY got one stock away from winning genesis and said peach only lost to a character that is NOT top tier. Compared to the rest of the cast she has pretty decent match ups against top tiers.

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure no one gets excited winning one match of a set on a cp stage. That being said, there are still people who need to learn the neutrals. Many Fox players don't CG after getting a grab on FD against spacies and go for upthrow upsmash even when their opponent is at like 40.

I got excited when I took a match from Jman last year. It was a big win for me.

How does the fact that some people don't know neutrals support the case for counter picks?

tbh, I like having a crutch to fall back on. The ****tiest feeling in the world is after reading literally every move some braindead player who is clearly gutter trash then not moving your fingers fast enough to punish. The best thing about Poke Floats is I don't need to worry about some mindless space animal who is trash trying to mindlessly roll/sidestep past me or some Marth/Sheik/Falcon player mindlessly dash attacking/side bing all day. This is all **** I **** all day when I'm playing well but when I'm not it's just like ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, why is the game rewarding them for not being smart just because my fingers aren't moving fast. Then by R3 I have their *** playstyle memorized, I have them shaken from the ****, and they'll lose.

If I had people to play more so I was more consistent with my tech skill, I wouldn't care much since I'd never lose a round anyways

.

And honestly, we all know tec0, Kage, myself, and others don't win solely or even mainly because of counterpicks.

Why should the community cater to players who are playing bad? Technical skill is an ability that is highly rewarded in basically the entire genre of competitive gaming. When you pick a counterpick stage you change the game more than you change your own strategy and that is against the spirit of competitive gaming.

You are all *****ing about something that, in my ridiculously educated and intelligent opinion, only holds you back.

Would you care to elaborate? Everyone I know(except Eggm and M2K) picks stages in friendlies by going random with all 6 neutrals(Eggm has FoD turned off and M2K ALWAYS picks FD.) No one spends their time practicing counterpick stages because they take 5-10 minutes to learn and then you're set. I don't see how anyone is getting held back by wanting to be good on every stage instead of just 6 of them. Swift brought up a great point. NOT allowing counterpick stages when Pound 4 is going to have them is only going to hurt.

Correct me if I am wrong Cactus but this is how I interpret your statement:

It holds you back because the only way you win on a counterpick stage against a better player is banking on their inability to play on a stage. In essence, you are bringing a better player to your level of skill rather then rising to theirs. Instead of you getting better and smarter, you are making your opponent worse. Counter picks help you win a match, but they don't help you get better at the game.

Yeah but R2 and R3 could both be played on counterpick stages every set, which would make neutrals matter 1/3 as much. A better idea to test this kind of a ruleset - hold a cheap single elimination side tournaments with this ruleset. Single elimination will make sure it goes by fast and if it's cheap no one is going to get upset over it.

1st of all Cactus said "statistically neutrals matter more" Which means at a given tournament, more neutrals are played then counterpicks. Hypothetically cps could be played more, but thats not the way it is and I can assure you that is not how it is going to be.

Spam, your argument has got me thinking about cp stages and although previously I was pro-cp stages, I think you have turned me to the other side of the argument.

 

[pockyD]

Spam, your argument has got me thinking about cp stages and although previously I was pro-cp stages, I think you have turned me to the other side of the argument.

haha awesome

having spam agree with you is like the kiss of death

 

[EmuKiller]

good try jfox

 

[GOTM]

jesus christ pakman. like...i really dont see how anyone could argue anything u just wrote

 

[teh_spamerer]

Even spammer has admitted to losing once even tho he thought he should have wno and that he was the better player.

I've also been pushed off the Yoshi's Story cloud and lost stocks/matches like that btw.

Yeah so you never lost a match you shouldn't have on counterpicks except those few you already specified, but let's look at this from another angle. I am sure there have been times where you have beaten someone who was statistically better than you on a cp stage...... *cough vidjo*cough.

Vidjo got 2 stocked on Battlefield and barely lost on Poke Floats. Please explain to me how beating him by LESS on my counterpick than on a neutral hurts my argument.

No offense but, M2K is a fair amount better than you. I don't think that is a good example.

M2K being a lot better than me makes my example better. You and everyone else have said things like

In essence, you are bringing a better player to your level of skill rather then rising to theirs.

If I'm trying to get an advantage to beat a better player than I am, why was the end result me doing DRASTICALLY worse?

Peach is way better than Yoshi Luigi Bowser and like 10 other characters.

That doesn't make anything I said about her incorrect.

Why can't we throw Bowser and Pichu, who are much worse, a bone and make like Brinstar depths legal?</Sarcasm>

Brinstar Depths doesn't help them and is a ******** stage. Mute City is not.

A peach player CLEARLY got one stock away from winning genesis and said peach only lost to a character that is NOT top tier. Compared to the rest of the cast she has pretty decent match ups against top tiers.

How good a character is, is not based on how any person or people do at a single event.

5: M2K
5: Scar

Otherwise from the above we would have to say Falcon is equally good a character as Marth(he's close but he's not.)

I got excited when I took a match from Jman last year. It was a big win for me.

My apologies, I meant no one gets excited if their opponent gets klaptrapped 4x, if their opponent didn't spend 5 minutes on Floats/Cruise and dies in places you shouldn't, etc.

How does the fact that some people don't know neutrals support the case for counter picks?

It had nothing to do with counter pick stages. I was just saying that there are players who have been playing for years and didn't spend any time learning basic things about neutrals.

Why should the community cater to players who are playing bad? Technical skill is an ability that is highly rewarded in basically the entire genre of competitive gaming. When you pick a counterpick stage you change the game more than you change your own strategy and that is against the spirit of competitive gaming.

In other competitive fighters you can hit up training mode to practice anything tech skill related to stay sharp. That isn't the case with Melee. My opponent is *** and 100% guaranteed to lose every subsequent set until they stop being terrible at the game. Why should they be rewarded by ever winning even a single set against someone infinitely more intelligent than them?

It holds you back because the only way you win on a counterpick stage against a better player is banking on their inability to play on a stage. In essence, you are bringing a better player to your level of skill rather then rising to theirs. Instead of you getting better and smarter, you are making your opponent worse. Counter picks help you win a match, but they don't help you get better at the game.

Cool. Except this doesn't address the fact that people practice in friendlies, which people play far more often than tournament matches, by playing on neutral stages.

 

[GOTM]

spammer not one of your points that you just wrote out made any sense. im sorry

i think you like put words together for arguments sake that sound like they would brainwash some ppl who were *******, but like...stop.

 

[Deathknight]

I say keep all the current counterpicks (including Mute and Green Greens.) Also, if you're going to talk about random stuff, why not Corneria because of the Arwings/Wolfens randomly showing up and shooting? Anyway, the best players have still been winning with all these stages legal so obviously there isn't a problem with making these stages available. If you don't like a cp stage, ban it.

 

[Overswarm]

I thought it was common knowledge by now that there is no such thing as a "neutral". The idea that just because a stage is flat with platforms means it is a better and more balanced stage has been proven false long, long ago.

If you ever limit a stage list in any way, you're effectively choking out certain CPs for certain characters. Peach is not a good character when compared to spacies, marth, and sheik. However, she can lessen her weaknesses and enhance her strengths on certain stages like other characters, thus evening the gap. The prime choice for peach has generally been Mute City. Although DK64 and Dream Land made a few highlights in certain matchups in the past (more "neutral" type stages), Mute City always won out for Peach.

When you look at a character like Marth however, you'll see he does poorly on multiple stages. Unfortunately for non-marth mains, most of those stages get banned because they are "gay". As time has gone on, Marth has gotten better because of the stage list. This is similar to how Peach would be a stronger contender if Mute City was a "neutral".


I was above average at best at Melee, but I prided myself in winning on my counterpick. It's what I did. I beat multiple players that were way better than me simply by counterpicking properly and knowing the stage. I got the entire midwest to hate Kongo Falls way back in the day, often went Green Greens and Japes, that kind of thing. I rarely lost on my counterpick. Most of the money I made from Melee wasn't from doing well in tournaments, but doing crazy MMs on odd stages or 2:1 odds if we played three CP-style stages.

To most, this would automatically end the argument. If a lesser skilled player can beat players that are top 10 contenders at a national tournament on a CP, why would you ever allow those stages?

The missing piece of information is that when I did lose on those stages, it wasn't normally because the player was better than me but that he was able to adapt and play on the stage properly. Fox mains had an easy time with this, but after counterpicking Marth mains to Pokéfloats, Corneria, and Green Greens enough they learned the stage. I would often lose to those Marth mains because they learned the stage and how to play appropriately on it.

The game is about winning, and we have a set character roster. Some characters naturally have more range, some are faster, some have more reliable kill moves, etc., etc., and to even the odds you have to choose your stage carefully. Some characters do better on certain stages, and others simply change the matchup (like Sheik vs. Peach is entirely different on Mute City).

The Brawl community doesn't use "random" to pick our stage anymore because we acknowledge that there is no universally fair stage; it's why Falcon players groan when they get FoD and Marth players prefer Yoshi's to DL64 and Foxes have a ball on PS1.

To ban a bunch of stages simply because you don't like them hurts the game. Melee is pretty far into it so if you want to seclude yourself further and play your secret club house version of Smash (kind of how there are those that play with items, except inverted), but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the Melee stage list that is currently in play doesn't have too many issues. It's been in the works for about a decade or so and we have had consistent results across the board, so why change it? You might not like certain stages, but others do. Learn how to play on them to improve your odds or pick up another character. CPs are what Smash has centered on for a long, long time.

If you want to remove any and all CPs, by all means do so if it makes you happy. But just say "this is what I want" and not have any misconceptions that you're balancing anything or making it "less random". My general philosophy is if it isn't broken, don't ban it. Otherwise, you end up with a crappy stage list that inadvertantly makes certain characters better than others.

 

[EmuKiller]

Just stop and play on the neutral 6. More playing, less qq.

 

[Eazy23]

Lol emukiller, this is a DEBATE thread, of course people will debate.

This won't be my typical debating post, but take it seriously nonetheless.

Someone please tell me, honestly, is this not really about spacies and falcon mains getting tired of getting rocked on cp stages? If so, I'd like for THAT to be the message. Not some overall gameplay factor bs.

If it is indeed about the spacies and falcons, learn new characters....

Since when has that been too much to ask?

Link mains get cg'd by sheik, did we ban it? Nope, they just had 2 step it up and learn new chars.

Tons of characters had to be dropped or put to the side in different situations because of their overall inability to compete. Well, this situation is no different. If your character can not compete properly in a given situation, learn a new character for it. Changing the way smash has been done for YEARS, because of some personal crybaby crap is wrong imo.

If you do indeed go through with banning cp stages, what message are you trying to send?

I find it hard to believe that the melee community became what it was, created all of this hype, all under some unfair ruleset that allowed cp stages. What is the big issue with stepping it up, or umm winning round 1?

Even if selfishness is at the core of these cp banning ideas, I'd hope that some sense of loyalty to what the melee community represents would stop you. Right now, this is looking like the MK ban issue or some junk like that. Have ya'll been brawling? Be honest boyz!

 

[CanISmash]

this will split the community.
people will quit.
been fine for 8 years, nothing big has happened on japes, mute city, like gotm beating m2k.
brawl / cod4 here i come.

this is going to be one of those bad i dont wanna say it but "i told you so" i told you sos....

btw fair and balanced = pokemon stadium action replay no transformations. and **** it lets ban fox while we're at it. -_-

 

[CT Chia]

I was about to be cool with everything and reply after Pakman's God of a post, but then I read on and saw about 20 wall of texts that I didn't feel like reading. Now I can't make an appropriate reply because I feel one of the many times I went into school in English class between 7th and 12th grade without doing the assigned reading the night before.

However I will handle the situation the same as I did in a specific class in 10th grade that I'm sure GOTM remembers. Stood in front of the class with 2 others who didnt read anything. Laughed. Picked a random line from one of the pages, said it, and made up stuff to say about it that sounded smart.

"I was above average at best at Melee, but I prided myself in winning on my counterpick. It's what I did. I beat multiple players that were way better than me simply by counterpicking properly and knowing the stage. I got the entire midwest to hate Kongo Falls way back in the day, often went Green Greens and Japes, that kind of thing. I rarely lost on my counterpick. Most of the money I made from Melee wasn't from doing well in tournaments, but doing crazy MMs on odd stages or 2:1 odds if we played three CP-style stages." - Overswarm

Well, in the first sentence here we see that OS is talking about the midwest scene. Comparing the midwest scene to the current Brawl scene which allows more counterpick stages than any other region, many of which have no place in a competitive scene, likely nullifies anything you just said.

"Brinstar Depths doesn't help them and is a ******** stage. Mute City is not. " - Spammer

Spammer makes multiple references in his writings to his own opinions which he himself made up that no one else shares the same view of. I am going to go on a limb and say it's a feature article on counterpick stages with his own viewpoint on these types of stages, and refrains from using factual evidence to support his claim.

 

[EmuKiller]

I don't believe people will quit but instead realize that this is a new opportunity for perhaps something brilliant. Regardless, there's no WRONG in trying, especially since this is a game. It's not life or death stupid heads (whoever you are ^.^).

 

[Eggm]

i'm curious about why you even bother to keep the 6-7 stages instead of simply dictating that all matches in the tournament will be played on dreamland or something like that

if you're trying to make it "fair", take it all the way. continuing to keep 7 stages after removing 7 already is just a half-*** attempt

This is a pretty good point that I think should be answered (I'm probably not the best person since I suck at agruing) but I will give it a shot.

The main reason me and scar want this switch isn't so much that the counterpicks aren't fair. We think its subtracts from the overall experience of the majority of the smashers. It makes it less competitive and for most people fun. Scar referred to it as "taking away from the spirit of the game". People make lots of sacrifices to play this game whether it be time money or both.

The main reason for this switch is to keep the game exciting for everyone. Picture any tournament match between two highly skilled melee players facing off. A crowd of people are watching, when do you hear more oooohhhh's and AHHHHHHHHHH crazy. During matches on neutrals. A few people might have a different opinion but for the most part, but its generally true.

So this switch was just to try something different to see if maybe the majority of the melee community could have more fun and it can be overall more competitive. Because for the most part I think we (the smash community as a whole) thinks that what spammer did to vidjo on pokefloats or other campy and non entertaining things done on CP's just simply isn't as fun or entertaining.

So back to your point pocky. Since we are trying to make it more fun and entertaining and competitive taking it down all the way to one stage would be too drastic. I think scar's ruleset its a pretty happy middleground for the majority.

I thought it was common knowledge by now that there is no such thing as a "neutral". The idea that just because a stage is flat with platforms means it is a better and more balanced stage has been proven false long, long ago.

If you ever limit a stage list in any way, you're effectively choking out certain CPs for certain characters. Peach is not a good character when compared to spacies, marth, and sheik. However, she can lessen her weaknesses and enhance her strengths on certain stages like other characters, thus evening the gap. The prime choice for peach has generally been Mute City. Although DK64 and Dream Land made a few highlights in certain matchups in the past (more "neutral" type stages), Mute City always won out for Peach.

When you look at a character like Marth however, you'll see he does poorly on multiple stages. Unfortunately for non-marth mains, most of those stages get banned because they are "gay". As time has gone on, Marth has gotten better because of the stage list. This is similar to how Peach would be a stronger contender if Mute City was a "neutral".


I was above average at best at Melee, but I prided myself in winning on my counterpick. It's what I did. I beat multiple players that were way better than me simply by counterpicking properly and knowing the stage. I got the entire midwest to hate Kongo Falls way back in the day, often went Green Greens and Japes, that kind of thing. I rarely lost on my counterpick. Most of the money I made from Melee wasn't from doing well in tournaments, but doing crazy MMs on odd stages or 2:1 odds if we played three CP-style stages.

To most, this would automatically end the argument. If a lesser skilled player can beat players that are top 10 contenders at a national tournament on a CP, why would you ever allow those stages?

The missing piece of information is that when I did lose on those stages, it wasn't normally because the player was better than me but that he was able to adapt and play on the stage properly. Fox mains had an easy time with this, but after counterpicking Marth mains to Pokéfloats, Corneria, and Green Greens enough they learned the stage. I would often lose to those Marth mains because they learned the stage and how to play appropriately on it.

The game is about winning, and we have a set character roster. Some characters naturally have more range, some are faster, some have more reliable kill moves, etc., etc., and to even the odds you have to choose your stage carefully. Some characters do better on certain stages, and others simply change the matchup (like Sheik vs. Peach is entirely different on Mute City).

The Brawl community doesn't use "random" to pick our stage anymore because we acknowledge that there is no universally fair stage; it's why Falcon players groan when they get FoD and Marth players prefer Yoshi's to DL64 and Foxes have a ball on PS1.

To ban a bunch of stages simply because you don't like them hurts the game. Melee is pretty far into it so if you want to seclude yourself further and play your secret club house version of Smash (kind of how there are those that play with items, except inverted), but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the Melee stage list that is currently in play doesn't have too many issues. It's been in the works for about a decade or so and we have had consistent results across the board, so why change it? You might not like certain stages, but others do. Learn how to play on them to improve your odds or pick up another character. CPs are what Smash has centered on for a long, long time.

If you want to remove any and all CPs, by all means do so if it makes you happy. But just say "this is what I want" and not have any misconceptions that you're balancing anything or making it "less random". My general philosophy is if it isn't broken, don't ban it. Otherwise, you end up with a crappy stage list that inadvertantly makes certain characters better than others.

Its not to balance or to make it more fair read my above response to pocky .

 

[Mew2King]

Jiggs is ridiculously good wtf some people are considering H box 2nd best cuz he beat me once (LOL ridiculous) so if that's the case Jiggs is the best char

btw I do think Jiggs is better than Marth and Sheik right now, but not Falco and Fox. I mean hell at Genesis Mango, Hbox, AND Darc all ranked higher than any other Marth or Sheik besides myself. I just use these characters cuz I'm good with them.

I change my mind a lot I know but I currently think it's Falco Fox Jiggs Sheik Marth Peach ICs/Falcon Doc Ganon

 

[EmuKiller]

Fox
Falco
Jiggs
Sheik
Marth
Falcon

 

[Keblerelf]

Eggm if it's the entertainment you care about, why not just have WF/LF/GF use the 7 neutral stage rules?

I'm pretty sure players don't care if their matches look cool or not to other people. They just care if they win or not.

 

[GOTM]

What it comes down to is, both sides want Melee to be more entertaining. People like me, Eggm, Scar, Cactuar, possibly Pakman, and ChiboSempai, just to name a few, think that for this to happen we need to follow this new rule set. The others think the opposite. I don't think we are arguing the right point here, nor do I think anyone really sees that what we are arguing is wrong.

We seem to just keep arguing "fairness" and things like that, even though the entertaining factor has been brought up a couple times, no one really continues the thought.

In the end it comes down to preference, and honestly I think it is a lot more 50/50 than some of you think. Since this is the case, everyone is going to have to deal with a lot of tournaments being one way and others being the other way. Plus, when did saying, "If you don't like it, don't come" become such a stupid rule? I think that is the most fair thing about life in general as the theory applies to so much more than this.

And to people like Vanz, Tec0, and CanISmash, I understand where you're coming from. I also understand Vanz point about how this could decrease attendance and then tournaments will become thinner and thinner and then the game that we all fought long and hard for to keep alive will just die. Fact is, that's not going to happen. Vanz, you're telling me that if all the tournaments in this area that you could get to (even though you really haven't been to any recently I've heard) all held these rules officially, you would never go to a smash tournament again in this area?

I find things like this extremely hard to believe. All of you are going to attend, maybe not this first one just to "boycott" and try and prove a point, but in reality you're all just being stubborn, and it's kind of childish. At least just give it a shot. No one is telling you not to voice your opinion, what people are telling you to do is stop trying to CHANGE others, because that is obviously not going to happen.

 

[MattDotZeb]

Melee is plenty entertaining, what on earth are you talking about GOTM?


We seem to just keep arguing "fairness" and things like that, even though the entertaining factor has been brought up a couple times, no one really continues the thought.

So you're saying that even if it's not fair, if it looks cool and makes a crowd go wild then we should do it?

.....

 

[Teczer0]

What it comes down to is, both sides want Melee to be more entertaining. People like me, Eggm, Scar, Cactuar, possibly Pakman, and ChiboSempai, just to name a few, think that for this to happen we need to follow this new rule set. The others think the opposite. I don't think we are arguing the right point here, nor do I think anyone really sees that what we are arguing is wrong.

We seem to just keep arguing "fairness" and things like that, even though the entertaining factor has been brought up a couple times, no one really continues the thought.

In the end it comes down to preference, and honestly I think it is a lot more 50/50 than some of you think. Since this is the case, everyone is going to have to deal with a lot of tournaments being one way and others being the other way. Plus, when did saying, "If you don't like it, don't come" become such a stupid rule? I think that is the most fair thing about life in general as the theory applies to so much more than this.

And to people like Vanz, Tec0, and CanISmash, I understand where you're coming from. I also understand Vanz point about how this could decrease attendance and then tournaments will become thinner and thinner and then the game that we all fought long and hard for to keep alive will just die. Fact is, that's not going to happen. Vanz, you're telling me that if all the tournaments in this area that you could get to (even though you really haven't been to any recently I've heard) all held these rules officially, you would never go to a smash tournament again in this area?

I find things like this extremely hard to believe. All of you are going to attend, maybe not this first one just to "boycott" and try and prove a point, but in reality you're all just being stubborn, and it's kind of childish. At least just give it a shot. No one is telling you not to voice your opinion, what people are telling you to do is stop trying to CHANGE others, because that is obviously not going to happen.

First of all I never said anything about that people aren't going to enter if this ruleset is up. That **** is economics and I hate economics.

My whole thing is that its not a good ruleset. A tourney should be as fair as possible and I'm arguing that a stage strike system with only 7 stages is not fair.

Whether its more 'fun' has nothing to do with it. To me the entire entertainment value is that I'm playing Super smash brothers melee.

I'm more than fine with trying it out. Thats why initially I really didn't care that much. I was like ummm okay w/e its only one tourney.

Then after eggm's bi-weekly its like everyone wanted to change it. THATS the point I feel like I have to say something. I don't want it to become a standard. Its definitely better than just not voicing your opinions and having something you feel is way inferior become a standard.

 

[EmuKiller]

Yeah I disagree with some of the things you said Gotm. It was really not thought out all that well.

 

[Cia]

Vanz, you're telling me that if all the tournaments in this area that you could get to (even though you really haven't been to any recently I've heard) all held these rules officially, you would never go to a smash tournament again in this area?

Hell yeah. ****ty rules are ****ty rules and I'm pretty content with local smashfests. and the last tournament i've been to was a Bi-weekly, and the week before that, Saffron City.

 

[teh_spamerer]

"Brinstar Depths doesn't help them and is a ******** stage. Mute City is not. " - Spammer

Spammer makes multiple references in his writings to his own opinions which he himself made up that no one else shares the same view of.

I am going to go on a limb and say it's a feature article on counterpick stages with his own viewpoint on these types of stages, and refrains from using factual evidence to support his claim

I'm sorry Chibo, I was under the impression that people who would respond to my posts would actually use their brain. The fact that you quoted me saying something that is CLEARLY truthful and claim that it's an opinion has proven me wrong on that account.

People like me, Eggm, Scar, Cactuar, possibly Pakman, and ChiboSempai, just to name a few, think that for this to happen we need to follow this new rule set.

WSFL Cactuar: honestly though
WSFL Cactuar: i dont care if CPs are on or off
WSFL Cactuar: i do think it will benefit our area overall to learn them better though
WSFL Cactuar: much more than learning CPs will

 

[Overswarm]

The main reason for this switch is to keep the game exciting for everyone.

If you're trying to make it more exciting, you're going in the wrong direction.

 

[chinesahh]

I don't feel like reading everyones posts, but i skimmed through them.

In my opinion, why change the rules? In most finals i've watched the matches are exciting. Players that got that far usually didn't pick "gay" stages. M2K, azen, ken, kdj, pc, chu, isai, and even what i've seen of mango don't choose to go jungle japes or rainbow cruise. When they did get counterpicked there, they usually won anyway.

The same goes for all skilled smashers, at least from my perspective. I've never seen chillin lose to vist because of brinstar or something random, because to me, skill matters a lot more than counterpicks. I'm not going to lose to randomguy490 because of corneria.

Counterpicks exist. Changing rules now will only hurt our shrinking community. Sure you might lose to a peach on mute city, but you always get the next counterpick.

 

[Cia]

Counterpicks exist. Changing rules now will only hurt our shrinking community. Sure you might lose to a peach on mute city, but you always get the next counterpick.

THANK YOU, LORD. this is the point i've been trying to get across the whole time.

 

[GOTM]

WSFL Cactuar: honestly though
WSFL Cactuar: i dont care if CPs are on or off
WSFL Cactuar: i do think it will benefit our area overall to learn them better though
WSFL Cactuar: much more than learning CPs will

lol spam, i live with cactuar and he has already written his argument for this subject in the other thread, and hes obviously for these new rules.

he was probably just trying to get you to stop talking in that aim convo, hahahaha

 

[Eggm]

I now know why they call the smash community a bunch of children.

 

[CT Chia]

What it comes down to is, both sides want Melee to be more entertaining. People like me, Eggm, Scar, Cactuar, possibly Pakman, and ChiboSempai, just to name a few, think that for this to happen we need to follow this new rule set. The others think the opposite. I don't think we are arguing the right point here, nor do I think anyone really sees that what we are arguing is wrong.

I can't say that the reason why I want the rule change is to make it more interesting, because what is interesting or not is an opinion that differs player to player. And also I personally don't mind timing people out, I do it in friendlies on neutral stages lol. My reason however is very similar, it's because I feel a lot of the CPs don't fit with the game we have made Melee to be. We have determined Melee to be a test of tech skill, intelligence, etc, not who camps better. When something doesn't fit with the competitive goal a community tries to set for said game, that is banned. Key example: Akuma in SF2HD. He was balanced from the original SF2 to be legal in tourneys, but then people discovered he's still too good. It's actually very similar to the MK debate, Akuma had no bad matchups, and though beatable, he just simply did not fit with the metagame and thus, was banned. I'm sure all of you can agree Temple doesn't fit with what we aim to achieve by holding Melee tourneys, etc. It's just that a group of us feel that stages like Mute City and others don't fit as well.

I'm sorry Chibo, I was under the impression that people who would respond to my posts would actually use their brain. The fact that you quoted me saying something that is CLEARLY truthful and claim that it's an opinion has proven me wrong on that account.

You should probably try reading posts you want to reply to. If you had read my first two paragraphs you would have realized it was a complete joke reply.

Counterpicks exist. Changing rules now will only hurt our shrinking community. Sure you might lose to a peach on mute city, but you always get the next counterpick.

The fact that everyone acknowledges that a Peach will likely win on Mute City without even considering the situation at hand is just wrong. It's too much of an advantage for her. Counterpick stages are to slightly turn the tides of a match, giving some characters an extra slight advantage, or using a stage that the player personally likes. Completely switching around like every matchup in the book for a character like Peach, Mute City just makes no sense.


Every Pro-Stager's reply is so up tight and pissy. People need to chill out. I can't believe people are about to not go to tournaments who use these rules. That alone flat out shows that they can't play a game where they can rely on ridiculously broken ailments that are extremely beneficial to only themselves and other Peach/Jiggs/whatever mains.

 

[Eggm]

Chibo Sempai, " Every Pro-Stager's reply is so up tight and pissy" This is exactly how I've felt from the moment I changed the title of my tournament thread. Which is why I got mad in the first place. You guys are acting like the world is crumbling with every post and that its SOOOOOO Fin serious. It really makes it hard to argue with you civilly. It also makes you come across as people who can't win without these stages, when that probably isn't true for most of you.

Edit : And the post vanz you got so pissed over was me trying to get you to feel how you guys were acting towards the people who were arguing against CP's, thats why I ended it with "see how it feels?" I was basically being told I sucked needed to man up play new chars and actually learn cp's and that was the only reason I wanted to change the rules. Thats why i made a mean post ending in see how it feels. But then you went off the Fin wall ever since throwing out PERSONAL insults, when my insult was just about you being a cry baby about something IN game. And the personal insult you presented wasn't even a good one cause I'm not selfish at all. Of course I want to leave when there's 1-2 hours left I'm freaking tired and usually have to drive home by myself and i'm going to take half the setups at the tournament cause they are MINE. One smasher leaving shouldn't cripple the rest of the tournament who decided to stay. If everyone brought more setups it wouldn't. Calling me selfish for that is dumb. Oh also Pro tip everyone gets mad when they lose.

 

[Pakman]

Counterpicks exist. Changing rules now will only hurt our shrinking community. Sure you might lose to a peach on mute city, but you always get the next counterpick.

Professional sports make tweaks to their rules every year. Even baseball has pretty recently adopted instant replay for balls that are borderline homerun or foul.

There is no reason TO's should get a ton of crap for testing a reasonable experimental rule set.

Just because something is good doesn't mean we shouldn't try and make it better. If it fails, it fails and we go back to our normal ruleset.

I can understand people's dislike for the ruleset, but give it one chance before you start claiming that it is going to ruin the Melee scene.

And if peach counterpicks mute on round 3 then I don't get another counterpick. And for those who want to say "Win Round 1", I don't think anyone likes the idea of having their set determined by the first match.

 

[Eggm]

I hope when I grow as old as pakman I can make posts like that and use words that wisely I suck at this.

The whole tweaking each season or year in sports is sooo true. Even in E-Sports. The progaming korea scene every proleague season and every new MSL/OSL season does pre matches amongst the pros to determine if maps are still good or if they need to use new ones or make little changes. Obv melee can't do that, but we can still take from the SC scene that if one is really really broken in favor of one race, it gets THROWN out. So that when every single team doesn't HAVE to throw out that race on that map when it shows up in the team battles.

 

[Cactuar]

I really don't care either way because, generally, it doesn't affect me personally if a player chooses to use a CP due to skill gaps. I hate to admit this because Chibo stated it, but the fact that Peach or Jiggs+Mute is nearly considered an autowin is a legit concern.

The point of counterpicks shouldn't be to drastically change matchup percentages. It should be to change the odds of a match based on player skill and one player having superior knowledge of the stage.

 

[GOTM]

Everyone is a bunch of whiners. I'm making my tournament FD only.

 

[Eggm]

Everyone is a bunch of whiners. I'm making my tournament FD only.

At least then m2k would be the best for simply being the overall best PLAYER on that stage, instead of a tourney going all mute city and Armada auto the best cause hes the best PEACH player.

 

[GOTM]

At least then m2k would be the best for simply being the overall best PLAYER on that stage, instead of a tourney going all mute city and Armada auto the best cause hes the best PEACH player.

looooooooooooooooooooooooooool