Megaman X: Day of Death. ~ EVERYBODY DIED. SCUM WINS. GAME OVER.

[Overswarm]

Go ahead and posts those questions again here. Give quotes, and we'll wait for Rajam to answer.

 

[Raziek]

For Rajam:

Why are you so fixated on Overswarm's interactions with AB during RVS? Do you believe the WIFOM your case seems to be based on actually makes OS scum? Does this outweigh his otherwise Townie (in my opinion) play?

Additionally, why the focus on Xatres? You seem to be trying to passively bully him into joining your wagon on OS.

For reference, my 268.

 

[Inferno3044]

His case is ***, though! Surely you can see that. He's going entirely off of the WIFOM created by the AB/OS exchange during RVS.

I want him to explain WHY he's focusing so heavily on you for reasons I consider poor, and I want him to explain his interaction with Xatres.

I agree with this. His whole debate started by him RVS voting you and then pursuing his RVS. What kind of argument is based on "only mafia know who's town and who's not"? And that line came because OS gave a town read on AB.

 

[Overswarm]

I agree with this. His whole debate started by him RVS voting you and then pursuing his RVS. What kind of argument is based on "only mafia know who's town and who's not"? And that line came because OS gave a town read on AB.

It came because I said "Looks like someone is afraid of my scum game", not because I gave a town read on AB.

 

[Xatres]

While we wait for Rajam to answer, I'd love to hear some general opinions from people who haven't posted in awhile. I'm thinking specifically of JTB (has he posted at all since RVS?).

@JTB: You here? What do you think of the current discussion revolving around Ryker/Rajam? Got a new line of thought to present?

 

[Inferno3044]

It came because I said "Looks like someone is afraid of my scum game", not because I gave a town read on AB.

I stand corrected, but it doesn't change that I think his argument is terrible. You are a good player. You're not going to scum slip D1 let alone on page 1.

 

[Gova]

1. Inferno3044 (1) Circus
2. JTB ()
3. Overswarm (2) Rajam, Boat
4. Red Ryu ()
5. Circus ()
6. Analytical Buttheads ()
7. Rajam (1) Raziek
8. Nicholas1024
9. Xatres ()
10. Terywj (3) FF, Nich, OS
11. Raziek ()
12. Boatchouli (2) AB, Inferno
13. Frozenflame751 (1) RR

Not voting - JTB, Tery, Xatres

With 13 playing, it takes 7 to lynch!

Deadline is September 20th at 11:59 PM EST (GMT-5).

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Swiss is fortunately not part of this hydra, frozen.


The post you asked about was made by adum. I didn't actually post anything other than the pic in the beginning

DERP. ****ING DERP. My bad. >_<

Thanks for telling me adum wrote that though. Def sounded like him and wanted to make sure.

Unsure how to read Frozen Flame at this point. His play fits the profile of "wanting to survive at Night" and "wanting to get lynched during the day" at the same time.

@Just about everyone aside from me/OS/Tery
I want your thoughts on the case and Tery's play in general.

His entry posts are pretty garbs. #167 till #183 just REEK of pseudo scum hunting. Boutachouli was an easy target and the case seems made to fit the current town focus, as opposed to legitimate attacks because he actually believes Bout was scummy. Def. felt like "blend in but also act like I'm contributing" style posts. And the consistent *****ing about pictures is just lame, fluffy, and sounds like an excuse to delay contribution, or atleast a scapegoat to use later if people criticize him for not contributing well or having bad reads.

I'll reread your posts and get you an answer sometime today. There's a lot going on between your posts and everyone elses. Right now I have to say that I've got a town-read on OS, as his arguments seem to be logical and he doesn't seem to be making any anti-town actions. Same goes for Nick. Both of them are actively scum-hunting and engaging in intelligent conversation. That's a good sign in my book.

> it's ****ing day 1
> OS doesn't blow at mafia
> having a confident town read on him because of an absence of anti-town play
> not using repleteness of clear pro-town play as your town read criteria
> mfw

Rajam, Xatres and Frozenflame have all made posts that don't sit well with me. Xatres needs to post more (oh the irony, coming from me), and Rajam needs to deliver a solid stance.

Also, do you think Xatres v Rajam is TvT? TvS? SvS?

Flame, have your thoughts changed any?

Not much. Tery is still ok to go in my book, though @ EVERYONE: If you're voting Tery you should make clear who your runner up vote would be and why otherwise you're like lame and probs scum.

Bout's lack of consistent presence bothers me a bit. Turning my read of him in the scummy direction.

Less interested in a Rajam lynch, kinda interested to see him and Xatres interact more.

RR can still die cuz I'm pretty sure he has a problem with always OMGUS people so it's a null tell for me that he's doing it to me now.

AB I'm more confident in my read of now knowing that adum has been posting everything and not Gheb for the most part. Still my second pick after Tery but Bout is catching up quickly.

 

[Raziek]

I think Xatres v Rajam is either T (Xatres) v S (Rajam), or TvT. Don't think it's SvS.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

RR can still die cuz I'm pretty sure he has a problem with always OMGUS people so it's a null tell for me that he's doing it to me now.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think Xatres v Rajam is either T (Xatres) v S (Rajam), or TvT. Don't think it's SvS.

What makes Xatres looks town to you?

I haven't seen enough to justify it.

 

[Xatres]

> it's ****ing day 1
> OS doesn't blow at mafia
> having a confident town read on him because of an absence of anti-town play
> not using repleteness of clear pro-town play as your town read criteria
> mfw...

I don't really know what this means. Are you saying that I shouldn't be giving OS a town-read when he appears to be pro-town because he's good at the game and knows how to look town?

I can understand the need for caution, but that's a pretty WIFOM argument.

I'm really not a fan of targeting good players just because they're good. I'd rather target someone against whom I can make a legitimate case. If I thought OS was using his skill to make a convincing (but ill-founded) case against someone, I'd say so. So far, I haven't seen any of that, so I'm reading him as town for now.

 

[Raziek]

What makes Xatres looks town to you?

I haven't seen enough to justify it.

He's Town because I don't think he's Scum.

He's currently null, so I put him in the larger pile.

 

[Nicholas1024]

Normally I'm against this as is most of DGames, I've seen WL use it to get the doc to not doc Ryker on D1 in Pulp Fiction.

However your policy based on what I read in Fire Emblem is different, so I'll give.

1. Inferno3044 - town
2. JTB - null
3. Overswarm - town
4. Red Ryu - town
5. Circus - null
6. Analytical Buttheads (Gheb_01/adumbrodeus) - null
7. Rajam - town
8. Nicholas1024 - leaning town
9. Xatres - null
10. Terywj - null
11. Raziek - leaning scum
12. Boatchouli (Ryker/Moth) - null
13. Frozenflame751 - scum, legit this time.

Wait one second. Normally you're against full read lists because you think scum can use them to their advantage, but since OS disagrees you'll oblige anyway? I really don't like this logic.

Additionally, do you have examples of meta that Raziek definitely knows but has not applied here? If not then this case is utterly horrible.

@Tery
Why haven't you responded to my case? Not liking that.

@OS
Regarding Rajam's meta, I seriously don't recall him being scummy by fixating on past stuff at all in FE. (I suppose there was a LOT of ridiculous stuff going on in that game, but he felt townie to me there.)

@mod:
Prod JTB please.


@Moth:
Why didn't you reply to my statement regarding the meta (about how the game you brought up proved my meta point), and why has your playerslot quit commenting on anything (even with stupid pictures?) I want to know where you stand on stuff.

 

[Overswarm]

I stand corrected, but it doesn't change that I think his argument is terrible. You are a good player. You're not going to scum slip D1 let alone on page 1.

You're right, I am perfect.

Whose argument is more terrible, the person who thinks he found a scum slip, or the person who says "You didn't find a scum slip because good players only make scum slips from D2 onwards"?

You're right there in the middle at "contradiction". Climb the triangle please.

I don't really know what this means. Are you saying that I shouldn't be giving OS a town-read when he appears to be pro-town because he's good at the game and knows how to look town?

I can understand the need for caution, but that's a pretty WIFOM argument.

I wouldn't give me a town read. WTF have I done? Not be scummy? That's my free pass? "Well, there's other people who have done distasteful things, and then this other guy who has not... obviously the second one isn't scum!"

That's a logical fallacy. A=B doesn't mean C = D, na mean? It also has absolutely nothing to do with WIFOM, so much so that it gives me a headache. WIFOM doesn't mean "it could be either or", just FYI.

If I want you to see me as town, you'll see me as town. If I want you to see me as scummy and I steal the limelight, you'll see me as scummy. If I want to be a NKill, I'll become the NKill by my own decree. If I want to be a lynch, I'll manipulate town to my will. You see me exactly how I want you to see me.

Still feel confident about my alignment? Because town or scum, I'm playing you and everyone else in this game because I want them to see me how I want them to see me and not come to their own conclusions.

I'm really not a fan of targeting good players just because they're good. I'd rather target someone against whom I can make a legitimate case. If I thought OS was using his skill to make a convincing (but ill-founded) case against someone, I'd say so. So far, I haven't seen any of that, so I'm reading him as town for now.[/COLOR]

What cases HAVE I made? Don't look back, just think about it.

Still feeling comfortable?

If you aren't, don't worry; not making cases isn't scummy. I just wanted to put you in that mindset, because it's ridiculously easy to phrase a post in such a way that it is screaming "not doing X is scummy" without actually saying it. Just because I haven't made a case on anyone yet and have been asking questions doesn't mean that's scummy or unusual.

Wait one second. Normally you're against full read lists because you think scum can use them to their advantage, but since OS disagrees you'll oblige anyway? I really don't like this logic.

I got you to do what I wanted too.

But I kid.

@OS
Regarding Rajam's meta, I seriously don't recall him being scummy by fixating on past stuff at all in FE. (I suppose there was a LOT of ridiculous stuff going on in that game, but he felt townie to me there.)

Hmmm... dunno if he did it there or not. I'd have to read the game again, and it was a long one and I don't have time at the moment.




Oh, and Circus?

Wolves post and don't lurk in the shadows.


@all:
I'm going to speed this up a bit, because I want some actual stances from everyone, bar none. They don't have to be supported, but here's what I want:

Everyone post TWO people you would choose for a lynch today in no particular order. Don't support these lynch choices in any way, I just want to see them.

Two people that you'd choose to lynch today if you had to right now.


My two choices would be Boat or Red Ryu.


My third choice would be anyone who doesn't do this. Hint hint.

 

[JTB]

Calm your ****, I'm here. Had this game on the backburner while I was catching up on Nabes game after replacing in.

reading and such

 

[Raziek]

I'll be withholding my lynch choices until Rajam answers my questions.

 

[Overswarm]

I'll be withholding my lynch choices until Rajam answers my questions.

Yeah, no. That's not what I said. I said at this very moment. Rajam fits on it now, but doesn't after he answers? That's cool. You're still listing for right now. chop chop.

 

[Raziek]

Fine, Overswarm.

If I had to choose RIGHT now, Rajam or Tery.

 

[Overswarm]

Much better.

Everyone else too, come along.

 

[Xatres]

@OS: You sound like you're trying to say that you are good enough never to slip and good enough to always manipulate people's perception of you perfectly. I already know that your online persona is not the same as your RL one, so I know you have practice at this, but I still think that's a bit of an overconfident stance.

The thing is, the only way for a scum to perfectly hide from town is to play total town game themselves. That doesn't just mean being willing to bus their partners or even being willing to lead a charge on their partners, it means being completely willing to mentally block who their partners are from the conversation entirely. They'd have to play like the mod didn't send them a list of scummates at all.

Basically what I'm saying is, I think people will always have scum tells. Maybe a good player's scum tells aren't the same as others, but they still exist. I have not seen any from as yet, and I've seen what to me appears to be pro-town play, so right now I've got you on my town list.

As for who I would lynch right now if I had to?

Probably Rajam or Red Ryu.

 

[Overswarm]

@OS: You sound like you're trying to say that you are good enough never to slip and good enough to always manipulate people's perception of you perfectly. I already know that your online persona is not the same as your RL one, so I know you have practice at this, but I still think that's a bit of an overconfident stance.

The thing is, the only way for a scum to perfectly hide from town is to play total town game themselves. That doesn't just mean being willing to bus their partners or even being willing to lead a charge on their partners, it means being completely willing to mentally block who their partners are from the conversation entirely. They'd have to play like the mod didn't send them a list of scummates at all.

Basically what I'm saying is, I think people will always have scum tells. Maybe a good player's scum tells aren't the same as others, but they still exist. I have not seen any from as yet, and I've seen what to me appears to be pro-town play, so right now I've got you on my town list.

The only way for scum to perfectly hide from town is to play a total town game? Hardly. That's shallow thinking. You know what's another way to perfectly hide from town? Make them think your opponents are worse than they already are; sure, you might look scummy, but that other guy is DEFINITELY scum. People do it all the time, even in the real world. It 's what politics is based on!

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Wait one second. Normally you're against full read lists because you think scum can use them to their advantage, but since OS disagrees you'll oblige anyway? I really don't like this logic.

Additionally, do you have examples of meta that Raziek definitely knows but has not applied here? If not then this case is utterly horrible.

I know of at least 3 games Raziek has been in with Rajam, I was scum in one and town in the other the third I wasn't in. Fire Emblem, Death Note, and Super Mario RPG.

A lot of the nit picking is town meta of Rajam, yet it seemed as if Raziek ignored this to illustrate Rajam scum over the things of meta that also make him look town, which is why it looked like a fallacy to me for him to look only at one and ignore the other.

I am normally against full lists unless I keep changing my reads and don't leave them static. Most of town is null to me so I can change my reads by inquiring on people before night actions happen. This is what OS said to Adumb in Fire Emblem at the end during shoutouts and when I reread the game, I do this sometimes with mafia games, I learn what works and what doesn't as best I can, once I reread with the alignment results at the end.

In Pulp Fiction the situation changed, which is the opposite example. Town was posting full read lists and didn't change them. WL picked up on this and pushed Ryker hard to make sure the Doc had enough doubt so he was a safe NK while being a strong town player.

The lesson learned is as long as a person changes their reads, aka doesn't keep them static and keep trying to push and nudge to get reads, posting full read lists are fine.

I recognize a lot of this is mafia theory talk but it is the logic I am applying and using to make sense of the choices I am making.

@OS: It's still Raziek and Frozen for me.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

He's Town because I don't think he's Scum.

He's currently null, so I put him in the larger pile.

So he's both null and town?

I'm gonna assume because you don't find him scummy but the other scummy you think it is TvS even if your not sold on Xatres alignment.

 

[Xatres]

But don't people who do that usually have some excuse for their scummy behavior? And don't those excuses usually involve some form of newbie/sucky/gambit/trying-a-new-strategy type excuse? No politician is ever going to come out and say, "Yeah, I'm corrupt," even in the middle of attacking another politician. Everyone wants to look as squeaky-clean as possible. Resorting to "he's worse than me" only happens when you've already failed at not looking like scum.

Then again, there ARE crappy players out there who DO make stupid mistakes, so I suppose I can concede the point that "playing newb" is at least somewhat as legitimate a strategy as "playing town." I'm just not sure how effective a cover of looking like a newb on purpose could be compared to playing a good town game.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

What, pray tell, am I supposed to be responding to, Nicholas? You accused me of stuff I didn't even think about when I made my posts (i.e. distancing myself from the Ryker group, which I believe is invalid since "rereading" and "distancing" are two different terms IMO). I don't get it.

FoS: Raziek

You say you'd lynch me as one of your options right now, when you're not even sure of your read on me. Just gonna quote the following for reference.

See, I don't know if I'm entirely on board the Tery wagon, because I agree with half of your case, but disagree with the other half.

Explain yourself in the quick response to Overswarm's request.

And to answer Overswarm, I would be okay with Red Ryu and either Rajam or JTB. If you're gonna specifically ask for two it'd be Red Ryu / JTB.

 

[Rajam]

Raziek: where's the WIFOM on my case? I don't see it...

AB and RR, do you agree that noob-scum will probably be quite inactive, given the roster of this game?

I'll address other issues later. I need to see first how's my scum team (Xatres/OS/Ryker) doing :B

OS, don't fake-bus me

 

[Inferno3044]

Let's climb the triangle then. The main reason behind me thinking rajam's case is poor comes from you currently being my strongest town read. You are leading the town in the right direction, answering questions and posting intelligently and trying to find scum. On top of this you have talked about this being a town game and relating it to your town play inclduing saying "I will probably be the N1 target." This combined with your very cocky playstyle convinces me that you are town. You are too cocky to be scum.

Side note: I heard you were good from pierce and I trust his judgment. He also quit because of your chrono trigger mafia and the stupidity of the people in it.

As for the two targets it would be either boat or rajam right now.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Raziek: where's the WIFOM on my case? I don't see it...

AB and RR, do you agree that noob-scum will probably be quite inactive, given the roster of this game?

I'll address other issues later. I need to see first how's my scum team (Xatres/OS/Ryker) doing :B

OS, don't fake-bus me

Given this game, maybe.

Not a lot of people are noobscum in this game are noobscum so I don't think they would, they would be active but want to avoid attention from the stronger players.

Inactive is not what I think they would be doing.

 

[Overswarm]

Side note: I heard you were good from pierce and I trust his judgment. He also quit because of your chrono trigger mafia and the stupidity of the people in it.

Haha... Omni and Scamp were pretty good. Omni was definitely MVP that game. He died, flipped, came back, then won. As an indie lover. Everyone knew he was indie. He still won. Was pretty good.

 

[Nicholas1024]

I got you to do what I wanted too.

But I kid.

I'm somewhere between chuckling and shaking my head at this.

@all:
I'm going to speed this up a bit, because I want some actual stances from everyone, bar none. They don't have to be supported, but here's what I want:

Everyone post TWO people you would choose for a lynch today in no particular order. Don't support these lynch choices in any way, I just want to see them.

Two people that you'd choose to lynch today if you had to right now.


My two choices would be Boat or Red Ryu.


My third choice would be anyone who doesn't do this. Hint hint.

I approve of the stances, but I'm curious, why don't you want us to give reasoning? (That completely goes against what I usually do.)

Anyway... I think I'd pick Boat or Tery. I've given my reasoning for them in thread anyway.

@Tery
I'd expect you to at least acknowledge the argument, or argue your side of things. To just not respond like you're hoping it drops entirely is pretty odd, to say the least.

@Red Ryu
Ok, fair enough (on both the reads list and the meta point), but I still don't see it as a strong point against Raziek.

 

[Raziek]

So he's both null and town?

I'm gonna assume because you don't find him scummy but the other scummy you think it is TvS even if your not sold on Xatres alignment.

Correct. Xatres is Town by virtue of me having a null read, and that I believe it isn't SvS.

 

[Raziek]

Tery, I only listed you because I'm not really sold on anyone else right now, and I think Boat's more likely to be valuable to Town than you are, were I to keep him around.

No offense, and don't be butthurt just because I listed you as a possible lynch.

@Rajam:

That response half-convinces me, and half-not. You're just explaining the motives of AB with the picture, which I got before, and then in an implicit way you explain your motives with your post: the "callout": don't put a target on me just because you're afraid of me. that's the half that's ok. But then, there should be an evaluation: is that a legit town concern towards me, or is it just scum-AB trying to paint a target on me? You seemed to skip this part, because your response was pretty one-sided in the assumption that it was a legit town concern towards you,



and then again, only Mafia knows who is and isn't Mafia... it's a sort of a freudian slip as I see it

This post is the one that smells the worst.

Your first paragraph is downright confusing, and your final line is specifically where I'm seeing the WIFOM.

If you could explain to me exactly what you meant by the first paragraph, I'd appreciate it.

Additionally, please answer ALL of the questions I asked:

For Rajam:

Why are you so fixated on Overswarm's interactions with AB during RVS? Do you believe the WIFOM your case seems to be based on actually makes OS scum? Does this outweigh his otherwise Townie (in my opinion) play?

Additionally, why the focus on Xatres? You seem to be trying to passively bully him into joining your wagon on OS.

For reference, my 268.

 

[Overswarm]

What did I say about not posting reasons for the two on your lynch? Just post the two and we'll move on once everyone has done so.

AButthead, where's your two?

 

[Inferno3044]

Haha... Omni and Scamp were pretty good. Omni was definitely MVP that game. He died, flipped, came back, then won. As an indie lover. Everyone knew he was indie. He still won. Was pretty good.

That's not what I heard from pierce. He told me he lead the lynch on the mafia boss and basically told the town how to win. On top of that he was immune to night actions so the only way for him to die was for the town to lynch him for some reason. He was untouchable and the town lynched him before he could sign on that day. And he revived crono. you have no idea how mad he was. He refuses to play mafia now because of that. Also another side note, he also said omni was really good.

Anyways back to this game. I would like a response to my point against rajam's claim. Hopefully I climbed the ladder. Also I'm a little confused on your stance of him. Is there any reason besides meta that you think he is town?

 

[Overswarm]

That's not what I heard from pierce. He told me he lead the lynch on the mafia boss and basically told the town how to win. On top of that he was immune to night actions so the only way for him to die was for the town to lynch him for some reason. He was untouchable and the town lynched him before he could sign on that day. And he revived crono. you have no idea how mad he was. He refuses to play mafia now because of that. Also another side note, he also said omni was really good.

Read the game.

Anyways back to this game. I would like a response to my point against rajam's claim. Hopefully I climbed the ladder. Also I'm a little confused on your stance of him. Is there any reason besides meta that you think he is town?

Nope. Is there any reason other than one argument he's had that you think he's scum?

 

[adumbrodeus]

v/la

School being insanely busy and possibly won't have access to my power cord this weekend.

Sorry about posting out of the hydra.

 

[Inferno3044]

Nope. Is there any reason other than one argument he's had that you think he's scum?

Trying to convince xatres to "bus" you. Im not sure why he would ask one member of his scum team to vote another. Especially voting the stronger player.

You're real confident about rajam aren't you?

 

[Overswarm]

I'm confident that I'd rather have him around than not, at least for now.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

@Mod: Request Replacement

Not gonna drop a name but people need to not be talking about the set-up outside of the game. My spot in compromised so I need to replace out sorry.