Megaman - Read my last post in the thread and think hard.

[Doval]

Grabbing him's about the most legit option, but because of that, he'll be looking out for it. Anything else, he'll go straight into shield after taking the hit on the ground and either grab or roll out. If he grabs and throws, you take damage and he's got time to use another Leaf Shield. In the air, as I said, he'll just trade. Shine won't work, and even if you did catch him off guard with Marth's Up-B, you leave yourself wide open for **** since he's not going anywhere after taking the hit; you'll be helpless and recovering. Few characters have a projectile quick and spammable enough to be an issue.

The potential is just ******** and, as is the norm for competitive play, his metagame will devolve into Leaf Shield camping, because it'll be the safest and most reliable option he can use. And that's just not how Mega Man should play.

Sorry Eldiran, I don't know.

 

[GHNeko]

Grabbing him's about the most legit option, but because of that, he'll be looking out for it. Anything else, he'll go straight into shield after taking the hit on the ground and either grab or roll out. If he grabs and throws, you take damage and he's got time to use another Leaf Shield. In the air, as I said, he'll just trade. Shine won't work, and even if you did catch him off guard with Marth's Up-B, you leave yourself wide open for **** since he's not going anywhere after taking the hit; you'll be helpless and recovering. Few characters have a projectile quick and spammable enough to be an issue.

The potential is just ******** and, as is the norm for competitive play, his metagame will devolve into Leaf Shield camping, because it'll be the safest and most reliable option he can use. And that's just not how Mega Man should play.

Sorry Eldiran, I don't know.

That's not exactly true, as I've said, based on what is coupled with the move, Megaman might not even devolve into such a thing.

All we're doing right now is theorycrafting.

What if the move was crafted to give the attack frame advantage on hit? What then? You still didn't look at the potential of a hefty charge toll and/or cool down toll that could easily be crafted to spawn several seconds that you wouldnt get unless your opponent is being star KO'd, falling to his death, or was knocked to the other side of a large stage at high percents. If the move is crafted so that you need an extraordinary amount of room space, and a smart/aggressive opponent disallowed this sort of space, how could Megaman devolve into a Leaf Shield camping fgt? He wouldnt. The risk of the move when an opponent is within a certain proximity would be large enough for a Megaman user to go, "wait. I shouldnt do that here. I should wait."

And even then, the move would only grant you a single hit of super armor. So you STILL take damage. Meaning even if you did successfully abuse it leaf shield's super armor, you still would be taking damage. And on top of that you still have characters with multi-hit moves, projectiles, and heavily disjointed attacks.

 

[Doval]

What if the move was crafted to give the attack frame advantage on hit? What then? You still didn't look at the potential of a hefty charge toll and/or cool down toll that could easily be crafted to spawn several seconds that you wouldnt get unless your opponent is being star KO'd, falling to his death, or was knocked to the other side of a large stage at high percents. If the move is crafted so that you need an extraordinary amount of room space, and a smart/aggressive opponent disallowed this sort of space, how could Megaman devolve into a Leaf Shield camping fgt? He wouldnt

If you have to give it so much start-up that you can't put it up after knocking the opponent away at mid-high percentages (which you are likely to do if you have Leaf Shield, leading to a vicious circle), then that's
1) a clear indication that its effect is stupidly powerful
2) a ludicrous amount of start-up, as most characters can charge whatever they please after knocking an opponent away
3) hardly Leaf Shield any more. Might as well nerf what it does and reduce the penalties so that it's more faithful to the move, or implement a different move that can be more faithfully reproduced. It seems pretty illogical to start putting in a bunch of penalties the move has never had just so it can have a ridiculous effect when you can simply make it not as good.

And even then, the move would only grant you a single hit of super armor. So you STILL take damage. Meaning even if you did successfully abuse it leaf shield's super armor, you still would be taking damage.

Taking some damage means little when you can get away with a free hit on your opponent. You take damage, he takes damage and knockback and might die.

 

[GHNeko]

If you give it so much start-up that you can't put it up after knocking the opponent away at mid-high percentages (which you are likely to do if you have Leaf Shield, leading to a vicious circle), it's hardly Leaf Shield any more. Might as well implement a different move that can be more faithfully reproduced.

I disagree. Simply because it takes a while to charge up doesnt make it any less of a leaf shield. It's still worth using. Also, you forgot about wind down lag as well. :V

Taking some damage means little when you can get away with a free hit on your opponent. You take some damage, he takes damage and knockback and potentially dies.

That's the point of Super Armor moves. So yes. The point still remains that you Mega still recieves damage, and the attack might recieve it back and might die from it.

 

[Doval]

That's the point of Super Armor moves.

Never seen a super armor move that lets you pick any attack to counter the opponent with. When I use Aether for super armor, I smack the opponent with Aether, not an f-air or a d-smash.

 

[GHNeko]

That may be true, but that doesnt mean that Leaf Shield would broken or OP or devolve Mega into a Leaf Shield fgtty fgt. We have no clue. There are multiple variables around the move, let around what the character can do and how well he can do it.

This is nothing more than theorycraft, and until its actually put into play, we have no clue if it will suck, be OP, or be balanced, and if its the prior, or pre-latter, then attempts can be made in order to tweak the move.

What if leaf shield had a timer/time limit as well? What if attack had frame advantage on shield? What if megaman could only spawn it if certain variables are met? What if it had wind down and start up lag? There are so many things possible that can be done in order to give the move some semblance of balance.

So instead of just blurting out, "OP!" or "It's going to make him a Leaf Camper!" and statements of the sort, it'd be best not to do so. :V

 

[Doval]

Strictly speaking, you're right, but I still don't see why you would want to:
A) Give Leaf Shield an effect that's overpowered on its own and couple it with a bunch of penalties that the move's never had, then hope that you neither overnerfed it nor undernerfed it
Rather than
B) Give the move an effect that's not as absolute and potentially problematic as Super Armor, and keep a more natural and canonical implementation.

A is more work, more likely to go wrong, and on top of that takes a bigger departure from the move's original behavior. It's also not the only option. I can understand that it could be balanced, but I still don't see why you so fervently support A rather than B.

 

[GHNeko]

I dont support A, I'm just being a devil's advocate. B is the way to go really. :V

Though Canon wise, A is correct, but lol @ canon in Smash.


EDIT: IF you wanted to stick to canon, neither way is the way to go. xD

 

[pwn&watch13]

woah woah hang on. You said your going to make multiple Megamans, correct? Why not make one of the model hacks a ness base? I mean, all of his attacks are projectiles (he also has a sheild) and could probably easily be moveset hacked and also StackSmash also made a really good texture hack that looks exactly like Megaman.

 

[RyuReiatsu]

woah woah hang on. You said your going to make multiple Megamans, correct? Why not make one of the model hacks a ness base? I mean, all of his attacks are projectiles (he also has a sheild) and could probably easily be moveset hacked and also StackSmash also made a really good texture hack that looks exactly like Megaman.

MegaMan is in no way as small as Ness...

 

[Oni K4ge]

MegaMan is in no way as small as Ness...

I think he means like for classic megaman, and since stack smash made that mega ness texture. if not, model importing

 

[RyuReiatsu]

I think he means like for classic megaman, and since stack smash made that mega ness texture. if not, model importing

I thought the OP's original intention was model importing already o.O...

 

[...:::VILE:::...]

Ok guys, you're all missing the point, Ive decided to end this bickering with making the PSA pac first. If someone could point my to the PSA download, framework (i don't have it) and FitSamus.pac.

 

[RyuReiatsu]

Ok guys, you're all missing the point, Ive decided to end this bickering with making the PSA pac first. If someone could point my to the PSA download, framework (i don't have it) and FitSamus.pac.

So basically, that's model hacking?
You don't need to be so irritated, bro. I'll be giving you the links in a sec.

EDIT: Here it is.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=244302

 

[Eldiran]

A warning, Vile: Samus is difficult to modify in PSA. Her special moves are all disordered, and she is reputed to have only 7 KB of extra space before she stops working.

But regarding the bickering... anytime there's a post saying "I'm going to make something cool" there's always going to be people saying "please make this!" So don't think much of it. (For example, I think it'd be awesome if you made your namesake as a character. But I know these things take enormous amounts of time and effort. Just making anything is a huge boon to the community. (That's why all my projects stay secret until they're finished. >D (Not to sound boastful saying things like what I made is a huge boon. Just saying it's a lot of effort.)))

But enough nested parentheses. Good luck.

 

[...:::VILE:::...]

The whole samus issue, ill manage and about people, yeh its annoying as hell.

 

[...:::VILE:::...]

BTW anyone have FitSamus.pac?

 

[RyuReiatsu]

BTW anyone have FitSamus.pac?

Yeah I do, my bad. I thought it was in the PSA thread. I'll be uploading it now.

EDIT: Here it is.
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?jlowmyhvxcd

 

[...:::VILE:::...]

Thanks heaps, and 1 last thing, anyone wanna be my tester? I is have no wii set up.

 

[...:::VILE:::...]

Also 1 more thing, what should i have for the beam shot, Nuetral A and Ftilt or Nuetral B and Side B, i want it so you can still run with it, i want to make it as similar to classic megaman as possible.

 

[Eldiran]

Also 1 more thing, what should i have for the beam shot, Nuetral A and Ftilt or Nuetral B and Side B, i want it so you can still run with it, i want to make it as similar to classic megaman as possible.

Go with Neutral and Side B -- if you chose A, you'd need to replace Jab, tilt, and dash attack for it to be perfect.

EDIT: You'll need a Wii. Like, it's nigh impossible to make a coherent PSA without access to a Wii.

 

[...:::VILE:::...]

Yeh i will set it up sometime soon, but for now i wouldnt mind having a tester around.

 

[...:::VILE:::...]

Ugh, samus has no run shoot animation (unless...)

 

[...:::VILE:::...]

This is what i think the moveset should be:

Dash attack = Slide
Nb = Buster
Sb = Buster
Db = Slide (a more lengthy one, more powerful too)
Ub = His jet power

Now heres the special part
Left and right taunt cycle through all off his megaman 1 weapons, and you will be able to tell which weapon you are on by the color of megaman (YES).

 

[colored blind]

Now heres the special part
Left and right taunt cycle through all off his megaman 1 weapons, and you will be able to tell which weapon you are on by the color of megaman (YES).

That sounds wicked. Though, I thought we couldn't edit projectiles through PSA, so some Hex may be involved.

That sounds like the best idea I've heard of for a Classic Megaman. Though, maybe something a little more special for his Down B may be in order.

Also, how would you do alternate costumes for two people playing Megaman? Or even load the different textures for the colors?

But still, awesome idea. If it comes to fruition, it'll be amazing.

 

[Doval]

Left and right taunt cycle through all off his megaman 1 weapons, and you will be able to tell which weapon you are on by the color of megaman (YES).

Sounds cool on paper, but it's kind of unfair to give him that many specials, so many of them being straight up projectiles, and it's a tad too oldschool for my tastes too (was never that big a fan of MM1, and seems like a shame to ignore all other 8 games for moveset options.)

Seems a bit inconvenient to have to cycle through them while not having your finger on the analog stick too.

 

[...:::VILE:::...]

I will not be using different textures... you will see when the time comes.

 

[...:::VILE:::...]

@Doval: You cant move and taunt anyway, you still have to bring the analog to the middle and the reason im not getting boss specials from other megamans is because it will be weird, this is classic megaman and the most classic one is the first (yes i know i have charge shot and slide, but thats also a big part of megaman).

 

[Doval]

Uh, no offense but I don't see how making him MM1 only makes him classic when they're ALL classic and Charge Shot/Slide weren't in MM1? That's like saying you're gonna make a classic Samus and then giving her her Charge Shot and Shinespark. 'Sides you could argue MM2 is far more classic since MM1 kinda sucked and MM2 was the first one to wow people and thus the more loved and known of the two.

And I know you can't move and taunt, that's pretty much what I'm saying. It's pretty lame.

 

[...:::VILE:::...]

Ok so lets make it your way, the only way we could have changing whilst moving and nuetral would be Nb and Sb, we make shot A and Ftilt and we just have regular taunts. That will severely hinder megaman in play, why not have the taunt a special changer, it will have no lag whatsoever and its not like you will be in constant need of changing, im gonna make each shot same balance.

Oh and i forgot to mention im limiting amount of special shots you will be able to use and when it runs out you automatically change to buster. Im hoping that i can make it that when you die, it resets (shouldn't be too hard).

And the reason i want MM1 specials is because they are simpler to remember and if everyone severely pleases i will make them a different megaman.

 

[Eldiran]

Yeh i will set it up sometime soon, but for now i wouldnt mind having a tester around.

Ah, gotcha.

This is what i think the moveset should be:

Dash attack = Slide
Nb = Buster
Sb = Buster
Db = Slide (a more lengthy one, more powerful too)
Ub = His jet power

Now heres the special part
Left and right taunt cycle through all off his megaman 1 weapons, and you will be able to tell which weapon you are on by the color of megaman (YES).

Sounds awesome to me. If you can really do that, I would be very, very impressed.

What would be really cool, though, is if you could make a graphic to appear as the classic weapons menu, and cycle through them pressing up/down/left/right/whichever. That would be awesome as a Down+B, and more unique too.

It's an outlandish idea, I know, but it leaves me still curious; to what extent can you replace character graphics? (For example, I know sword glow colors can be changed at the very least.)

EDIT: As for which special weapons to do... just make whatever you like best/think represents Megaman best.

 

[Nihongo-ookami]

Maybe changing weapons only changes your neutral B.

I think it should cycle between

Normal > Bombman(Shoots Bombs like Link's.) > Cutman(Works like Link's Boomerang, always comes back, unless it hits) > Elecman(Shoots an electric ball like Pika's NB) > Iceman(Shoots a block of ice that will move forward rather fast) > Fireman(Shoots a single blast of flame forward.)

That could be the cycle. I still like my first Idea better.

Also, I'd love to test it for you.

 

[...:::VILE:::...]

Yeh about that menu thing, i cant do it atm, i would have to have a really advanced article to hand all of that and since we cant make new articles, we will just have to make due with color representation (i will even try to make a bar that appears next to megaman that shows how many shots you have left).

 

[...:::VILE:::...]

Alright anyone willing to test, gimme your skype/MSN and we talk.

 

[...:::VILE:::...]

Ugh to save space im gonna have to limit the amount of specials mm will have, which would be most beneficial, just list the most unique 3 from all of the games.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

I'll test if you like. Plenty of time on my hands.

 

[Eldiran]

Throwin' out some ideas:
- Gutsman's Super Arm can be represented via throw(s).
- Personally I find Cutman or Elecman's weapons most memorable from MM1.
- MM2 is tough... but I'd have to say that in the end I'd find either Crash Bombs or Metal Blade are most iconic.
- A variant of Flash Man's/Light Man's weapon however could be rather easy to make using the Time Manipulation event.
- Top Man's Top Spin could be a cool standard attack. Or Charge Man's Charge Kick. Which if the slide causes damage, you could say you're already using.
- Dive Man's missiles could be represented by Samus' missiles.

I was originally going to say you should take 1 weapon from MM1, MM2, and MM3 each, but now I honestly think MM2 is so iconic you could easily take as many as you want from that one.

Yeah, I'm bored.

 

[RyuReiatsu]

Uh, no offense but I don't see how making him MM1 only makes him classic when they're ALL classic and Charge Shot/Slide weren't in MM1? That's like saying you're gonna make a classic Samus and then giving her her Charge Shot and Shinespark. 'Sides you could argue MM2 is far more classic since MM1 kinda sucked and MM2 was the first one to wow people and thus the more loved and known of the two.

And I know you can't move and taunt, that's pretty much what I'm saying. It's pretty lame.

I disagree on the the MM1 sucking statement.
Otherwise, I agree.

 

[Nihongo-ookami]

Alright anyone willing to test, gimme your skype/MSN and we talk.

SKYPE: TheDarkMoogle

 

[RyuReiatsu]

Well, I'd love to test him. Problem is that I'm not very free.
In any case, here it is:
-----

Pm'd.