Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[-RedX-]

http://youtu.be/6mPjV0o_lio

Look at Marth when he's at the ledge. How did he do that?

 

[Lavani]

http://youtu.be/6mPjV0o_lio

Look at Marth when he's at the ledge. How did he do that?

I remember people talking about this on the Greninja boards early into the 3DS version's life. If I'm not mistaken it involves letting go of the ledge, then jumping and attacking but landing before the attack comes out and the result is a quick landing.

EDIT: Found the Greninja video.

 

[Shaya]

http://youtu.be/6mPjV0o_lio

Look at Marth when he's at the ledge. How did he do that?

Been doing this with marth inconsistently for a while. I don't even know if it has to do with attacking things either, just weirdly timed ledge jumps seem to have the effect.

 

[TimeSmash]

I'm astonished if this hasn't been mentioned yet, but DACIT is still in. can go the full length of Smashville with it. However, I can only get it to work with an upthrow. I couldn't get it to work with a forward or back toss like in Brawl. EDIT: After many tries, I got it to DACIT with a forward throw! It's very hard to do with him.

This is DACIT:

However, can throw forward + slide with DACIT (does upthrow animation, bomb goes forward. Normal forward thow is easier) with a decent slide and no lag.

Also may have "discovered" a useless tech. If you have an item in and and pivot+DACIT simultaneously, you slide forward without throwing the item! Unfortunately.. your character is stuck doing nothing for 1-2 seconds for some reason.

This is great. any testing with other characters?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Normally a character will be ledge trumped on the first possible frame they can get off the ledge (after ~15 frames?), so if an opponent grabs the ledge immediately after you do, the minimum number of frames where you have to hold onto the stage still happen. As a result, you can get a bunch of frames where you're both stuck to the ledge, but whoever gets to that point first would normally be shoved off the ledge.

There is a significant advantage associated with buffering a ledge option even if you don't get the leftover invincibility like in Melee/Brawl. The ledge trumping mechanic doesn't happen if the earlier character buffers a ledge option tied to a button (Ledge Roll, Ledge Jump, Ledge Attack). Ledge Drop and Ledge Climb cannot be buffered and don't seem to work.

This is a significant nerf to characters with reliable/powerful ledge trump follow-ups and seems to undermine the idea of balancing the ledge game for less mobile characters. I feel like it's an oversight, and I'd like to believe that this wasn't a deliberate "hahah, no more edgehogging for a KO" from the balance team. Either way, enjoy your newfound ledge safety, everyone.

 

[-RedX-]

Nerf? It's been like that since 3DS release.
As long as ledge climb isn't bufferable, it doesn't sound so bad.
The fact that you can force someone to buffer risky getup options just because ledge trumping exists is good for head games. Let's say you punished them earlier for doing one of the above options and now they're coming back to the stage. Should the opponent take the risk and mash a getup option or try to avoid getting their getup option punished by delaying it? The latter is open to edge trumps.
Of course, if they change it so it's not so reliant on guessing and instead made trumping 100% guaranteed with good timing, I'd like that too.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You can react to an opponent getting close to you, and if the opponent grabs the ledge after you could normally get off the ledge, they cannot get a guaranteed punish via ledge trump even if they ledge trump you.

Most Ledge Attacks have hitboxes that hit very low (as in, stage spike people immediately under the lip), and the stark difference between what happens on a Ledge Roll, Ledge Jump, and Ledge Attack mean that trying to grab the ledge while someone is on it or is getting off of it is pretty much always a losing proposition.

 

[RESET Vao]

Not that hard. Shiek's Dacus couldn't be performed with c-stick in brawl.

What

 

[Azazel]

Also, i don't think skid canceled pivot grabs are well understood, how do they compare to regular pivot grabs, and roll canceled pivot grabs?

 

[Narth]

I've got 2 quick questions about things I've noticed in the game, but I'm not sure how they happen.

Q1 - how do I neutral-air with the C Stick? It keeps happening from time to time, and I have no idea how I've done it.

Q2 - Sometimes when I use a down-air attack that goes straight down, like Zero Suit's, Sheik's, Bowser's etc, they don't go straight down - they do the move but fall at the normal speed they'd be falling at without the move. Why does this happen?

Cheers! Sorry if I have asked this in the wrong place haha

 

[LawofDeath]

I've got 2 quick questions about things I've noticed in the game, but I'm not sure how they happen.

Q1 - how do I neutral-air with the C Stick? It keeps happening from time to time, and I have no idea how I've done it.

Q2 - Sometimes when I use a down-air attack that goes straight down, like Zero Suit's, Sheik's, Bowser's etc, they don't go straight down - they do the move but fall at the normal speed they'd be falling at without the move. Why does this happen?

Cheers! Sorry if I have asked this in the wrong place haha

Is it possible you have c-stick set from smash attacks to standard attacks? I've also here from someone that they'd do neutral air at times when doing left c-stick and only left. But I think that was with standard attack set though.

As for the down air attacks. I've noticed in this game and in brawl when you're being launched upwards, you won't be able to cancel the launch by doing down air. Instead you'd get exactly how you described. It's possible that it even applies when giving momentum towards a jump.

 

[Narth]

Is it possible you have c-stick set from smash attacks to standard attacks? I've also here from someone that they'd do neutral air at times when doing left c-stick and only left. But I think that was with standard attack set though.

As for the down air attacks. I've noticed in this game and in brawl when you're being launched upwards, you won't be able to cancel the launch by doing down air. Instead you'd get exactly how you described. It's possible that it even applies when giving momentum towards a jump.

Yes, I do have it set to Standard Attacks, makes it easier to do tilts! Thanks for your response.

 

[Gardex]

We need to start looking more into SDI in this game. It's not nearly as weak as people make it out to be.
Sure, it's nerfed, but that's mostly because of two factors that dont even directly translate to the default SDI-distance itself.

The first one is the lack of c-stick SDI. It will do more harm than good if you try to SDI with both sticks if the cstick is set to smash. However, switching it to a-sticking will at least not neutralize your left stick's inputs. Though even then it wont actually move you much(at least not significantly far, as I tried with 1/4 speed in training mode).
Because of this, dual sticking is no longer a valid strategy. Quarter circle DI is now the optimal way of doing it.
Although it already was in Melee, it's mostly a thing Brawl-players have to get used to if they were doing dual sticking(though, not many did it because of the tricky nature of DS)

The second reason is that the developers have been A LOT more liberal with their use of SDI-multipliers. This is why it's hard to get out of multihit-attacks; their SDI-multiplier is simply lowered. You can easily see this by comparing your SDI on the smart bomb/pika dsmash compared to the x-bomb. Applying SDI to the x-bomb will almost teleport you because it sends you so far, while the smart bomb will give moderate results at best. With decent QCDI you should get out of pika's dsmash.
Some multihitting attacks, and most single hits, AFAIK, still let you do SDI fairly well. It might not be quite that of the previous games, but it's still enough that SDIing behind Diddy Kong after the first hit of fsmash becomes really simple(unless optimally spaced, then you'd need SDI of the gods to get behind him, or try going up or away).

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Is it possible you have c-stick set from smash attacks to standard attacks? I've also here from someone that they'd do neutral air at times when doing left c-stick and only left. But I think that was with standard attack set though.

Not left, but...

I've got 2 quick questions about things I've noticed in the game, but I'm not sure how they happen.

Q1 - how do I neutral-air with the C Stick? It keeps happening from time to time, and I have no idea how I've done it.

Q2 - Sometimes when I use a down-air attack that goes straight down, like Zero Suit's, Sheik's, Bowser's etc, they don't go straight down - they do the move but fall at the normal speed they'd be falling at without the move. Why does this happen?

Cheers! Sorry if I have asked this in the wrong place haha

Nair is done by doing a perfect diagonal with the c stick. It's easier with the Gamecube Controller which has grooves every 45 degrees. You can do it at 45, 135, 225, and 315, while facing either direction.

It's not possible with Smash Attacks set, but it is with tilts. Likewise, doing the same input while grounded initiates a jab.

 

[ChopperDave]

Here's something I posted over on the Mega Man boards re: z-dropping that I think can be done by any character. It may be useful for other characters who can generate items like Peach, Pacman, and the Koopalings.

It's possible to run off stage, turn around and z-drop an item while snapping to a ledge grab near simultaneously.

To perform, grab an item, run off stage, buffer your control stick slightly towards the stage, and z-drop as soon as your feet leave the ground. If done correctly you will turn around, z-drop the item, and grab the ledge simultaneously or near-simultaneously.

This is especially useful for characters like Mega Man, who can generate Metal Blades and z-drop items behind him. It can make for a low risk way to stuff recoveries while gaining temporary invincibility from ledge grab. In Mega Man's case it often tees up quite nicely for a followup fair, nair, or bair.

 

[Dissent]

Likely useless but still interesting. Dash to walk makes the character do the skid animation quickly as a tween. Maybe this could lead to some kind of tech dependant on the skid frames?

 

[CURRY]

I was too lazy to look further after reading the past two pages of Q&A.

You will still gain a few invincibility frames when you do a ledge jump/roll/getup/attack, no matter how many times the ledge is grabbed, right?
I haven't gone to any Smash 4 tournaments yet, so I've just been playing against level 7 and 8 computers. It's those levels that are most human-like, right? Is there one that's better than the other to practice against?
I remember being hit on some of the REALLY early frames of my roll, which didn't seem right to me... hence, this question.

 

[-RedX-]

Likely useless but still interesting. Dash to walk makes the character do the skid animation quickly as a tween. Maybe this could lead to some kind of tech dependant on the skid frames?

Can you do attacks/specials when that happens?

 

[Dissent]

Can you do attacks/specials when that happens?

Didn't test it, but I will when I'm home today.

Edit: Tested. You can attack during it.

 

[Steelo Rivers]

Look at Marth when he's at the ledge. How did he do that?

If ou have only grabbed the ledge once, you can dash on to the stage. It looks crazy when you do this with lucina and sonic.

 

[Steelo Rivers]

If ou have only grabbed the ledge once, you can dash on to the stage. It looks crazy when you do this with lucina and sonic.

I have been playing smash 4 pretty heavy over the past week or so and have been finding out some new things. When I get paid this friday, I will get a capture card so I can post videos and whatnot. There is lot of lucina/marth tech I've learned over the past few days. Some translated directly from melee, some new (such as the edge rushing/dashing).

 

[yoshi8984]

Can someone explain these to me?

1: Why does inputting a grab sometimes cause an F-Tilt to happen? And sometimes when I try to pivot grab, I get a Reverse F-Tilt.

2: How does grab releasing work? As in, how would you escape via air or ground? And would being GR'd by Yoshi still always cause an air release?

3: What would be the best way to (S)DI (with a GC Controller)? Is there a video on it?

 

[Thinkaman]

1: Why does inputting a grab sometimes cause an F-Tilt to happen? And sometimes when I try to pivot grab, I get a Reverse F-Tilt.

Sometimes buffered grab input works as an attack input, when a grab is not possible. This new pivot f-tilt/smash window makes this possible.

The grab input of a pivot grab now works only after the pivot, not up to 2-frames before. (As in Brawl)

2: How does grab releasing work? As in, how would you escape via air or ground? And would being GR'd by Yoshi still always cause an air release?

So glad you asked!

 

[luke_atyeo]

ok so vectoring is gone yeah?
Whats the correct way to DI attacks now, I've been trying to curve my tracjectory like brawl (for instance holding up when I get hit with a horizontal kill move) but it seems to do very little/nothing. Doing aerials to get out of hitstun earlier (like in brawl) also seems to do nothing.
Can someone break down survival DI in this game for me?

 

[ChuteTheMessenger]

Hello hello all. Teching feels very different in Smash 4. The timing doesn't feel as lenient. Is this due to changes in the window for teching, buffering, or both? I was playing an 8 player match with all the hectic chaos that entails and I couldn't manage to ceilingtech/groundtech even once after being bounced up and down off the center cavern like a pinball. In Brawl, I used to be able to hit the shield button half a second before hitting a wall and I'd consistently tech.

Any thoughts? I don't have the game so I can't really practice at the moment.

 

[Noa.]

So what factors affect the survival of characters when they're hit with a kill move? I know that weight and fall speed are some factors. What else influences when a character dies?

 

[Angbad]

Sometimes buffered grab input works as an attack input, when a grab is not possible. This new pivot f-tilt/smash window makes this possible.

The grab input of a pivot grab now works only after the pivot, not up to 2-frames before. (As in Brawl)



So glad you asked!

Hey about pivot tilting vs pivot grabbing. So are you saying I should be waiting longer before I input the grab than in brawl?

 

[Dre89]

This is probably already known, but with A-sticking you can perform jabs by tilting the C-stick diagonally, the same way you can do nairs with A-sticking. This lets you combat walk with jabs but also allows you to pivot jab too.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I asked this sort of absentmindedly in a matchup discussion thread, turns out it was completely accurate.

DK's Hand Slap (down special) only hits grounded opponents when used on the ground. Luma technically floats. Therefore, Luma is completely immune to grounded Hand Slaps.

I wasn't sure if I should post this tidbit here or in the character discussion, but the latter was in a Dr. Mario phase and I didn't want to spoil it by bringing up she-who-must-not-be-named again.

 

[Thinkaman]

This is probably already known, but with A-sticking you can perform jabs by tilting the C-stick diagonally, the same way you can do nairs with A-sticking. This lets you combat walk with jabs but also allows you to pivot jab too.

I can see this being especially useful on Mega Man!

 

[ss118]

Is the platform cancel from brawl in this game, and if it is how would I perform it?

I saw the from the ledge dash thing and read it was similar in execution, but as a melee player idk how to do it.

 

[LuK2N]

Perfect Pivioting Tutorial by: Elijah

I didn't discover this but I never seen a tutorial on the Wii u so I decided to make one. Hope you all enjoy please leave comments and subscribe for more videos in the future! Thank you all and enjoy!!!!


http://youtu.be/CnYZTUxio8U

 

[Dre89]

Alot of the time when I try pivot grab I end up doing an ftilt. Is this just a chance thing or has the pivot grab window become tighter?

 

[Kofu]

Alot of the time when I try pivot grab I end up doing an ftilt. Is this just a chance thing or has the pivot grab window become tighter?

I don't rember who said it (Thinkaman? Aerodrome?) but someone mentioned that because of the new pivot FTilt/FSmash (possibly others) mechanic you have to press the other direction before you press grab. In Brawl you could hit grab a few frames before but that's no longer possible.

 

[Pyr]

Alot of the time when I try pivot grab I end up doing an ftilt. Is this just a chance thing or has the pivot grab window become tighter?

I've found that, if I hold Z during the entire thing, the grab will always come out. If I tap it, it's 50/50, but holding Z+direction you wish to grab in results in it coming out every time.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Alot of the time when I try pivot grab I end up doing an ftilt. Is this just a chance thing or has the pivot grab window become tighter?

Just make sure the Grab input is done either at the same time as hitting Backwards or do the Grab input before you hit Backwards. If you Grab after the Backwards input you risk doing a F-tilt. What I always aim for is to do a Grab then instantly hit Backwards and I've never had any trouble this way. Just trust me.

 

[Kofu]

Just make sure the Grab input is done either at the same time as hitting Backwards or do the Grab input before you hit Backwards. If you Grab after the Backwards input you risk doing a F-tilt. What I always aim for is to do a Grab then instantly hit Backwards and I've never had any trouble this way. Just trust me.

Sometimes buffered grab input works as an attack input, when a grab is not possible. This new pivot f-tilt/smash window makes this possible.

The grab input of a pivot grab now works only after the pivot, not up to 2-frames before. (As in Brawl)

This requires study; we have two conflicting declarations on the topic on the same page (I knew I read Thinkaman's post recently). I don't really have the means to test it though.

EDIT: I'm stupid, you can easily test this yourself. FIOD seems to be correct here; inputting grab before you turn produces a pivot grab, whereas inputting grab after the pivot yields a tilt.

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

Alot of the time when I try pivot grab I end up doing an ftilt. Is this just a chance thing or has the pivot grab window become tighter?

I find that it's a matter of how much of an angle I give the control stick. With a ver slight angle + Z, I cam get a pivot grab consistetly where as any more than that results in an FTilt.


On an unrelated note, I've found a tech I'm sure is likely already discovered. You can slide with your shield up by inputting your shield in the early frames of a fast walk. You can easily pull it off by holding the direction you want to move in with your shield up and dropping and then raising your shield. Different timings yield different results but the best timing makes me slide as far as one BF platform. I imagine it'd be called Hazeshielding Or Shieldpushing or something like that.

 

[Lavani]

In this clip, Little Mac uses his rapid jab with his back to the ledge to ledge cancel it into KO Punch. This isn't something I've seen used or discussed before; can other characters do anything with this? Captain Falcon seems to be able to rapid jab>upB for 28% like this, but that's about all I've found of note so far.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Just make sure the Grab input is done either at the same time as hitting Backwards or do the Grab input before you hit Backwards. If you Grab after the Backwards input you risk doing a F-tilt. What I always aim for is to do a Grab then instantly hit Backwards and I've never had any trouble this way. Just trust me.

I've been having a little bit of trouble with this and this actually helped alot, so thanks!
Also, a little bit off topic but when did you become a moderator?