Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I've been having a little bit of trouble with this and this actually helped alot, so thanks!
Also, a little bit off topic but when did you become a moderator?

No worries.
Today apparently.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

So I was testing ledge invincibility stuff with Bumpers and found some stuff, most of which I am very unhappy about.

An active Bumper hits one frame after a hurtbox overlaps it. (For all intents and purposes, an active Bumper hits on Frame 2, Frame 1 being when you become in range of it.)

Using the "1/4x Speed, hold L to unfreeze the game" setting in Training Mode, it is really easy to get the game to move in two-frame increments (and insanely hard to do it frame-by-frame, probably because L is pressure-sensitive). Because of that, I decided to test Ledge Climb invincibility by comparing frame data with a Bumper right above the edge and a normal Ledge Climb -> Shield (to test the IASA frame). While the shield overlay isn't visible until Frame 2 of a shield, you can still shield attacks on Frame 1, and your controller rumbles/the shielder starts his "I'm blocking" animation on Frame 1.

Using Mega Man, Little Mac, Diddy, Bowser, and Pac-Man, I got similar results (with slightly different overall animation lengths, but that's not important). Mega Man's Shield starts at the end of L press #17, meaning the IASA frame is 34, assuming you can buffer it. With a Bumper over his head, he still got hit on L press #17, and my shield didn't try to come out. Little Mac's Shield starts at the beginning of an L press (meaning his Shield is visible, being out on Frame 2 at the end of that L press), and the Bumper hits him at the end of the L press before his Shield would come out. This means that the Bumper, which hits on Frame 2, will hit a Ledge Climbing opponent one frame before their Shield would come out.

I also tested this at 0%, 100%, and 999%, as well as immediately after grabbing the ledge and after waiting for my normal ledge invincibility to wear off. None of that made any difference.

tl;dr--Ledge Climb only has two frames of vulnerability for what is likely to be at least most of the cast. I'm not going to go through every single character with this, but it's likely that this is more-or-less universal.

 

[Shaya]

Perhaps worth making a topic over, especially if you come to get other ledge related data.

 

[LancerStaff]

Discovered something small. Literally. Didn't think it was worth a topic, and this seems like the right place so...

I've had a tilt stick from day one because of the aerials thing. Naturally, being a Pit main, I try to guide my arrows with it. Until today I thought it just wouldn't work. It actually only moves a few pixels down, even right after firing. So basically a tilt stick imputs the bare minimum to register for a tilt, which might explain why diagonals give neutral imputs.

Makes me wonder how useful it actually is for breaking grabs and such...

 

[Locke 06]

The Rosalina boards found something interesting: http://smashboards.com/threads/rosalina-up-tilt-kills-at-19.382681/#post-18188607

Luma's utilt killed at 19%. Part of this was rage, with Luma's utilt having a very high base knockback (with poor growth), but what led to a kill luma interrupted a Bowser Jr. Smash Attack.

After further testing with my team of scientists (@Parcheesy @ Spirst ), this seems to be a global mechanic, not exclusive to luma or utilts. We only tested vertical moves (Fox Usmash, Mega Man utilt/Dsmash, luma utilt), but we would imagine it works for all moves. Interrupting any charging smash attack with a move resulted in the opponent flying further than if they were doing nothing. Curiously, max launcher speed is the same, so it would seem like the deceleration after the initial launch is delayed leading to more distance traveled and KO's. This also works against tilts & specials (tested by interrupting ganondorf's utilt and Rosalina/Greninja's neutral B's). However, we could not get it to work against a jab combo (luma spin) or a non-charging special (gravity pull).

My personal hypothesis: interrupting any move during its startup frames (and possibly during the frames where the hitbox is active) results in this type of "counter-hit" mechanic delaying the deceleration after getting hit.

I would encourage more people to investigate this, but it seems very interesting. Possible ways to go about testing interrupting active hitboxes is to use invincibility stars.

 

[Pyr]

The Rosalina boards found something interesting: http://smashboards.com/threads/rosalina-up-tilt-kills-at-19.382681/#post-18188607

Luma's utilt killed at 19%. Part of this was rage, with Luma's utilt having a very high base knockback (with poor growth), but what led to a kill luma interrupted a Bowser Jr. Smash Attack.

After further testing with my team of scientists (@Parcheesy @ Spirst ), this seems to be a global mechanic, not exclusive to luma or utilts. We only tested vertical moves (Fox Usmash, Mega Man utilt/Dsmash, luma utilt), but we would imagine it works for all moves. Interrupting any charging smash attack with a move resulted in the opponent flying further than if they were doing nothing. Curiously, max launcher speed is the same, so it would seem like the deceleration after the initial launch is delayed leading to more distance traveled and KO's. This also works against tilts & specials (tested by interrupting ganondorf's utilt and Rosalina/Greninja's neutral B's). However, we could not get it to work against a jab combo (luma spin) or a non-charging special (gravity pull).

My personal hypothesis: interrupting any move during its startup frames (and possibly during the frames where the hitbox is active) results in this type of "counter-hit" mechanic delaying the deceleration after getting hit.

I would encourage more people to investigate this, but it seems very interesting. Possible ways to go about testing interrupting active hitboxes is to use invincibility stars.

Wasn't this in Brawl or Melee? Where getting hit out of a Smash deals knock-back either equal to 20% more damage then you had when hit (100% knock-back is treated as 120% for the moment), or knock-back is increased by 20% overall?

 

[Spirst]

Wasn't this in Brawl or Melee? Where getting hit out of a Smash deals knock-back either equal to 20% more damage then you had when hit (100% knock-back is treated as 120% for the moment), or knock-back is increased by 20% overall?

Interestingly, it also worked when hit out of a tilt or special rather than just smashes. It did not however work for jabs.

 

[san.]

I'm hitting Ganon out of utilt and he's not dying a percent earlier. Training mode.

 

[Locke 06]

I'm hitting Ganon out of utilt and he's not dying a percent earlier. Training mode.

Could be a training mode thing (which would be odd...). I didn't do any testing in training mode.

Edit: Also, just to be clear, it doesn't work with multi-hit moves since you're no longer interrupting anything with the last hit.

 

[Kofu]

I don't know the details, but in Brawl if you were hit while charging a Smash Attack you were launched farther than normal. IIRC it's called the "smash charge vulnerability," and I was pretty sure I noticed it in this game as well.

It seems that part of your post also notes that interrupting other attacks has the same effect. I believe I've seen this as well but wasn't sure what to make of it. My guess is that it has to do with the opponent's inputs while being hit.

 

[san.]

It was Ike's bair. I just think that nothing was changed about only counter-hits during the charge of a smash attack providing more knockback.

 

[Locke 06]

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-smash-charge-vulnerability-new-vid.202057/ is the thread Kofu's talking about. Thanks for bringing that up.

DI wasn't the issue, as we were holding up the entire time (both with smash attack & with no smash attack). It's also not knockback... because wouldn't that be factored into the launch speed? After looking at the thread above, I think it's definitely Smash 4's version of that. However, I don't think it's been properly investigated.

Re: @ Pyr - Luma utilt with 100% rage doesn't kill until... +100% without the smash charge effect. It likely has to do with the knockback, not knockback growth based on %.

 

[luke_atyeo]

The Rosalina boards found something interesting: http://smashboards.com/threads/rosalina-up-tilt-kills-at-19.382681/#post-18188607

Luma's utilt killed at 19%. Part of this was rage, with Luma's utilt having a very high base knockback (with poor growth), but what led to a kill luma interrupted a Bowser Jr. Smash Attack.

After further testing with my team of scientists (@Parcheesy @ Spirst ), this seems to be a global mechanic, not exclusive to luma or utilts. We only tested vertical moves (Fox Usmash, Mega Man utilt/Dsmash, luma utilt), but we would imagine it works for all moves. Interrupting any charging smash attack with a move resulted in the opponent flying further than if they were doing nothing. Curiously, max launcher speed is the same, so it would seem like the deceleration after the initial launch is delayed leading to more distance traveled and KO's. This also works against tilts & specials (tested by interrupting ganondorf's utilt and Rosalina/Greninja's neutral B's). However, we could not get it to work against a jab combo (luma spin) or a non-charging special (gravity pull).

My personal hypothesis: interrupting any move during its startup frames (and possibly during the frames where the hitbox is active) results in this type of "counter-hit" mechanic delaying the deceleration after getting hit.

I would encourage more people to investigate this, but it seems very interesting. Possible ways to go about testing interrupting active hitboxes is to use invincibility stars.

as has already been said, this is smash vulnerability, a little known mechanic that was in definitely in brawl and I'm pretty sure it was in melee too (but cant confirm that.)
I cant remember the exact amount either, but if you are hit whilst charging a smash attack, you take an extra X% of knockback, X being 15 or 20 or something.


edit- it would probably help if I read your last post, if it killed too early for smash vulnerability maybe there was some kind of cape **** nonsense going on

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Does any know if the pushback an attacker has while hitting a hurtbox is dependent on their traction, or the strength of their attack(s)?

Also--

 

[Esquire]

Here's a video pertaining to the whole "counter hit" discussion above. Sorry for the small screen. Near the end of the video, I was able to kill a Luigi charging a Down Smash with Upperdash Arm at 51%. I am somewhat able to replicate this in training mode, but it barely misses out on the KO for some reason.

There's definitely something going on here. I'm trying to hit characters with Pit's FSmash while they're charging, but no noticeable additional knockback is really gained. Might only work with things that hit once, and the initial hit gets the bonus. I'll try it on other moves.

EDIT: This also works for Dark Pit's Electroshock Arm.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Here's a video pertaining to the whole "counter hit" discussion above. Sorry for the small screen. Near the end of the video, I was able to kill a Luigi charging a Down Smash with Upperdash Arm at 51%. I am somewhat able to replicate this in training mode, but it barely misses out on the KO for some reason.

There's definitely something going on here. I'm trying to hit characters with Pit's FSmash while they're charging, but no noticeable additional knockback is really gained. I'll try it on other moves.

The extra knockback while an opponent is charging a Smash is nothing new. The reason you don't see a change with Pit's F-Smash is because the extra knockback is being applied to the first hit, since he's no longer charging a Smash once the second attack hits.

The extra knockback that Rage provides isn't applied in Training Mode.

 

[Esquire]

The extra knockback while an opponent is charging a Smash is nothing new. The reason you don't see a change with Pit's F-Smash is because the extra knockback is being applied to the first hit, since he's no longer charging a Smash once the second attack hits.

The extra knockback that Rage provides isn't applied in Training Mode.

Ah, perhaps I misunderstood the topic then. Thank you!

 

[Locke 06]

The interesting thing here is that this seems different from previous iterations of smash. Launcher speed is identical when interrupting an attack and not interrupting an attack (with consistent di), but the opponent is being launched further. While not a huge part of the game, it does seem interesting to explore. One of those known unknowns someone can research relatively easily.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It may be placebo, but I've definitely seen situations that feel like people take more knockback than usual. "Not even close to living" deaths from Jigglypuff B-Air at ~85%, for instance.

I've always liked the idea of a Counter Hit property that is applied for more than just Smash attacks.

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

Quick question, I keep hearing about teching in terms of stage spikes. I'm aware of the general use of the word for landing on flat surfaces but I'm unsure how exactly to tech a stage spike. How does I tech stage spike?

 

[Pyr]

Quick question, I keep hearing about teching in terms of stage spikes. I'm aware of the general use of the word for landing on flat surfaces but I'm unsure how exactly to tech a stage spike. How does I tech stage spike?

If I understand correctly, due to how spikes on stage work (they bounce you now instead of simply sending you up or leaving you on the ground), you can tech a spike hit if you're standing directly on stage and shield a little after the move hits. It basically eliminates all knockback of stage spikes.

Ex: I screw up a PS of Ganon's Dair on stage. Instead of being stomped into the air, I tech in place, and am now about 20% more damaged, but otherwise fine.

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

If I understand correctly, due to how spikes on stage work (they bounce you now instead of simply sending you up or leaving you on the ground), you can tech a spike hit if you're standing directly on stage and shield a little after the move hits. It basically eliminates all knockback of stage spikes.

Ex: I screw up a PS of Ganon's Dair on stage. Instead of being stomped into the air, I tech in place, and am now about 20% more damaged, but otherwise fine.

I'm not referring to a top to bottom stage spike, I'm referring to an off stage smack into the stage which redirects your momentum sort of thing.

EDIT:

www.youtube.com/embed/wb2NU4plZN4?t=5m25s

This is what I'm talking about. WFT trainer stage spikes CF and the commenbtators mention how he could have teched it.

 

[Esquire]

I'm not referring to a top to bottom stage spike, I'm referring to an off stage smack into the stage which redirects your momentum sort of thing.

EDIT:

www.youtube.com/embed/wb2NU4plZN4?t=5m25s

This is what I'm talking about. WFT trainer stage spikes CF and the commenbtators mention how he could have teched it.

If you press the shield (L or R on the GCN controller) right as you make contact on a surface, including a stage, you will "tech" the impact and significantly lessen the distance you are bounced away. In most cases, it reduces your bounce knockback to almost nothing, allowing you a chance to recover. This is pretty much exactly the same thing as a "ceiling tech".

In short, teching a stage lets you live through getting stage spiked/stage bounced.

Read here for more information:
http://www.ssbwiki.com/tech

 

[Pyr]

I'm not referring to a top to bottom stage spike, I'm referring to an off stage smack into the stage which redirects your momentum sort of thing.

EDIT:

www.youtube.com/embed/wb2NU4plZN4?t=5m25s

This is what I'm talking about. WFT trainer stage spikes CF and the commenbtators mention how he could have teched it.

At 5:28? You can tech any hit that hits you into a solid surface, including all stage spikes. You just time it like you would a normal tech. If you hold up, you tech and do a sudo wall jump. If you just tech without a directional, it'll leave you at the location you teched, eliminating all knockback, and you'll start a normal fall.

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

At 5:28? You can tech any hit that hits you into a solid surface, including all stage spikes. You just time it like you would a normal tech. If you hold up, you tech and do a sudo wall jump. If you just tech without a directional, it'll leave you at the location you teched, eliminating all knockback, and you'll start a normal fall.

If you press the shield (L or R on the GCN controller) right as you make contact on a surface, including a stage, you will "tech" the impact and significantly lessen the distance you are bounced away. In most cases, it reduces your bounce knockback to almost nothing, allowing you a chance to recover. This is pretty much exactly the same thing as a "ceiling tech".

In short, teching a stage lets you live through getting stage spiked/stage bounced.

Read here for more information:
http://www.ssbwiki.com/tech

Hey, thanks

I was aware of how to tech things of flat surfaces, I just thought it was a different mechanic for walls/diagonal surfaces. So generally I want to hold up when I tech a stage spike for recovery purposes and hold no direction if I feel I have a chance at punishing. Correct?

 

[Pyr]

Hey, thanks

I was aware of how to tech things of flat surfaces, I just thought it was a different mechanic for walls/diagonal surfaces. So generally I want to hold up when I tech a stage spike for recovery purposes and hold no direction if I feel I have a chance at punishing. Correct?

I suppose it depends on character. I know that recovering with Lil Mac is still a pain in the ass either way, but less so with a neutral tech. =p

But ya. For example: Ganon Up-B's you into the stage. Tech and wall jump, then stomp them before Ganon can get out of the move's ending animation. =D

 

[CURRY]

There used to be a weird property in Brawl. If you jumped off the very edge of the platform or stage from a dash, you could do a grounded jump that came out instantly (single frame?), and could NOT be shorthopped.
Does that... not exist in Smash 4? I keep thinking that I finally do it, but the double jump hoops always appear...

Also, I never understood frames, heh.
Do things ONLY come out on frame 2 or more? I remember hearing somewhere about the first frame being one in which you input, and the next frame being the earliest that anything could come out...
It might've been something I saw when discussing 30 FPS games compared to 60 FPS ones though, I dunno.

Didn't Shine and Rest come out on frame 1 in Melee, though?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Also, I never understood frames, heh.
Do things ONLY come out on frame 2 or more? I remember hearing somewhere about the first frame being one in which you input, and the next frame being the earliest that anything could come out...
It might've been something I saw when discussing 30 FPS games compared to 60 FPS ones though, I dunno.

Didn't Shine and Rest come out on frame 1 in Melee, though?

The Smash titles run at 60 frames per second. You can think of it as frames on a movie reel, I guess, but when people talk about frames in terms of moves and move animations, they generally use it as a measurement of time. For example, if an attack's hitboxes start on Frame 15, that's the equivalent of one-fourth of a second (15/60, after all).

Because the game cannot process your input the very instant you press a button, you count from the instant you press a button to do that command (for all intents and purposes, that's Frame 0). The number of moves that are active on Frame 1 are few and far between; the only ones in Smash 4 that I can think of right now are Little Mac's Jab1 and everyone's Shield.

Melee Foxco Down-B was Frame 1 in Melee. I'm pretty sure Melee Jigglypuff's Down-B was Frame 3 (though invincible on Frame 1), and that's the case in Smash 4, as well.

 

[Mister Eric]

Moves that are used most recently will be scaling down damage/knockback more than those you used 8 moves ago.
The maths involved seem to be slightly different to Brawl, but more research is needed.

Moves that enter the queue need to hit an opponent, hitting shields or whiffing does not count.

Also hitting an object counts as well, right? Like a balloon or statue? (Sorry if it's already been answered).

 

[Jaxas]

Also hitting an object counts as well, right? Like a balloon or statue? (Sorry if it's already been answered).

So this is really old (and unfortunately unfinished...) but here's a link to some research I did a while back on stale moves in Sm4sh.
Long story short: Hitting a bomb-omb/crate stales, but hitting certain objects (like Villager's UpB Balloons) do not stale.

This was all tested on 3DS v1.01 however, and may have changed

 

[Mister Eric]

So this is really old (and unfortunately unfinished...) but here's a link to some research I did a while back on stale moves in Sm4sh.
Long story short: Hitting a bomb-omb/crate stales, but hitting certain objects (like Villager's UpB Balloons) do not stale.

This was all tested on 3DS v1.01 however, and may have changed

Bummer.
Thx for the heads up.

 

[Shadow Blitz]

I have a question about stale moves:
To my understanding in Brawl most jabs and some "jab-like" moves that required multiple inputs had each individual hit count seperately on the stale queue. Ex: in Brawl if you hit with all 3 parts of MK's f tilt, then that counts as 3 seperate moves on the queue. Mario's 3 hits jab combo (again, all three hits landing) would also count as 3 moves on the queue. I think even Snake's f tilt counted as 2 seperate moves if both hit. Multi hit attacks did not count each individual hit as one move, and some attacks were "too fast" to count as more than one move (ex: wolf pummel and MK/Marth D tilt spam).

Has anyone tested these jabs and "jab-like" moves to see if they function similiarly on the staleness queue in Smash 4?

 

[Azazel]

Can someone explain these to me?

1: Why does inputting a grab sometimes cause an F-Tilt to happen? And sometimes when I try to pivot grab, I get a Reverse F-Tilt.

You cannot cancel Turnaround animation with Pivot Grab, You may cancel skid or the beginning frames of Dash Grab

Spoiler

Best answer right here

 

[Azazel]

I can see this being especially useful on Mega Man!

Nairs, maybe.
F-tilt can be canceled into Jab if you return the stick to neutral just before the F-tilt hitbox comes out, and you get the Jab hitbox instead. you can achieve the same effects using C-stick since C-stick klls the movement stick. So smash C-stick is optimal for megaman

 

[LancerStaff]

So I did a little testing with A sticks and grab breaks.
Don't, okay? It just doesn't work.

With a normal C-stick, the optimal way to break out from grabs is to tap grab/attack and shield, special, hold a direction on the control stick, and tap the other way with the C-stick. Without it though, you'll have to randomly tap directions on the control stick since A/B sticks cut out if you press it too much.

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

Couls you go into detail on how grab breaks work? Also, when you say A sticks you mean having set the C stick for tilts, right?

 

[LancerStaff]

Couls you go into detail on how grab breaks work? Also, when you say A sticks you mean having set the C stick for tilts, right?

Yep, A sticks and tilt sticks are the same thing.

Well, I'm no expert, but breaking out from grabs quickly is just getting as many imputs in as possible. Since C-stick imputs outright override control stick imputs, but only for a brief moment if you do it right, holding one way and tapping the other with the C-stick will rack up imputs very quickly. There was a guide for it or something in the competitive Brawl section, it's probally the same here.

 

[Azazel]

Yep, A sticks and tilt sticks are the same thing.

Well, I'm no expert, but breaking out from grabs quickly is just getting as many imputs in as possible. Since C-stick imputs outright override control stick imputs, but only for a brief moment if you do it right, holding one way and tapping the other with the C-stick will rack up imputs very quickly. There was a guide for it or something in the competitive Brawl section, it's probally the same here.

Don't forget Grab also counts as 2 inputs, attack and shield

 

[Thinkaman]

Whoa, you can B-turnabout with Smash-stick?!? This makes wavebouncing a lot easier.

Edit: I just did my first Super Speed Wavebounce Explosive Flame in 1x speed. This is terrifying.

Edit2: Is there any mechanical reason to have a grab button assigned?

 

[LancerStaff]

Whoa, you can B-turnabout with Smash-stick?!? This makes wavebouncing a lot easier.

Edit: I just did my first Super Speed Wavebounce Explosive Flame in 1x speed. This is terrifying.

Edit2: Is there any mechanical reason to have a grab button assigned?

I don't think so. If you can successfully pivot grab without it you're probably good to go.