pockyD
Smash Legend
repeating it over and over again doesn't make it true
are you SURE you're an english graduate? could have fooled me
this is ridiculously naive and the opposite of what actually happens
read skler's post
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- Thread starter Skler
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are you SURE you're an english graduate? could have fooled me
read skler's post
Overswarm
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First off, you just answered your own question by saying "that doesn't involve walkoffs". That means that lower tier characters can suddenly have an advantage on a certain type of stage, showing that there are stage qualities that can switch things around.
Second, you're saying "low tiers". I'm not saying low tiers. I'm saying "not top tiers".
But hey, you said low tier, so I'll just use low and bottom. I'm sure you can go through and see Peach, Jiggs, Samus, and other characters that play differently than "move and fall really fast using a lot of aerials"that are unable to play on stages that naturally benefit them. I'll leave that part up to you.
Anyway, low tiers.
I'm assuming any stages are fair game, not just the ones from the "old list" based on this quote.
Icicle Mountain
Pikachu and Pichu, with their high mobility, projectiles, and vertical KO power can do well here. In many matchups, these stages would be better suited for the electric rodents than, say, Battlefield or DL64. While Falco could dominate here easily (his shine KO is pretty beastly) and Fox is no slouch, characters like Marth, Sheik, or Captain Falcon are going to have a more difficult time in these matchups than they would otherwise.
Yoshi's double jump to nair is also incredibly effective on this stage. Due to the whole "no knockback lol I'm Yoshi" factor, Yoshi is safer than most when manuevering against the stage's vertical scrolling. Yoshi's neutral b is also no longer useless, as it puts the opponent in a pretty bad position during the fast scrolling areas.
Termina Bay
I wish I could talk about DK, but I'll have to settle for Link's amazing up+b instant KO here. He's not alone in holding a quick KO on this stage, but the layout makes his bad recovery less of an issue, he has quick gimping abilities against the entire cast, his shield stops any sort of projectile spamming from across platforms, and due to his grab range and projectiles he is one of the few characters that can approach someone camping the edge in their shield safely. Someone camping hoping for a quick KO can be pushed off the ledge safely by Link, or can simply be grabbed. Any opening this creates leads to standard combos against Link rather than the quick death the opponent was hoping for, while any mistake on the opponent's part leads to a pretty fast death. Link's up+b when an opponent is on the ledge is also pretty beastly, as it will hit them (and kill them in many scenarios) regardless of their action.
Mewtwo's over-b glitch is pretty amazing here as well, as anyone approaching from the top platform can be dropped through. It doesn't combo and isn't guaranteed, but the option helps.
Flatzone
Hello, Roy.
I'm bored with this, but you get the idea.
otg
Smash Master
I think you and Alphazealot have completely lost touch with the current Melee metagame, that or you just have no idea what you are talking about. Could be both.
Overswarm
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Skler
Smash Master
I only discounted walkoffs because Fox loves them so much that he will always be the best character there.
Falco can 0-death the entire cast pretty easily here. Again, a top tier is the best. I'm looking for stages that make a low tier a better choice than a top tier. Falco being snapped in half broken makes this stage Falco only.
Fox does everything Link can do here better and with safer moves. He can also run circles to camp every match. Fox wins here hands down.
Why would you pick Roy when Marth is a far better option? Also, walkoffs and Fox.
Overswarm
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You do realize you're cherry picking characters?
If you're a Link player and you CP a Marth player to Termina Bay, that is an advantage in your favor. The only way it isn't is if the Marth player changes characters. The fact you're saying "insert top tier character" would do it better and not "top tiers" proves that these stages could be viable CPs for many low tier characters.
Fox also isn't nearly as Janky on Termina Bay as Link. If you believe this, you need to try it. Circle camping a good Link on Termina Bay is hard. I tried.
If you're a Link player and you CP a Marth player to Termina Bay, that is an advantage in your favor. The only way it isn't is if the Marth player changes characters. The fact you're saying "insert top tier character" would do it better and not "top tiers" proves that these stages could be viable CPs for many low tier characters.
Fox also isn't nearly as Janky on Termina Bay as Link. If you believe this, you need to try it. Circle camping a good Link on Termina Bay is hard. I tried.
Skler
Smash Master
What do you mean? I asked you to cherry pick some low tiers on cherry picked stages. Why do you think I did that? To show you that a high tier is STILL a much better choice. Almost every tournament level player has a secondary or two. Low tier players even have these secondaries, with all stages on they'd have to completely rely on these secondaries because low tiers are terribad on most stages. Allowing every stage would just mean you HAVE to play 2 or 3 high tiers to cover all your bases. You would never use the low tier.
Marth is bad on Termina, you can find a stage where ANY character is bad. Fox is bad on Brinstar, or at least worse than he usually is.
How is it hard to camp Link on Termina? Link is slow as balls and that downB you have makes it so he can't touch you from a distance. You can escape his approaches with the phantasm or **** him with your utilt that hits through his incredible nair. Termina is probably the closest to "high tiers are less dominant" because it has stupid low % KOs that make the game stupid. High tiers are still really good at it though, it's just that everyone can gimp now.
Marth is bad on Termina, you can find a stage where ANY character is bad. Fox is bad on Brinstar, or at least worse than he usually is.
How is it hard to camp Link on Termina? Link is slow as balls and that downB you have makes it so he can't touch you from a distance. You can escape his approaches with the phantasm or **** him with your utilt that hits through his incredible nair. Termina is probably the closest to "high tiers are less dominant" because it has stupid low % KOs that make the game stupid. High tiers are still really good at it though, it's just that everyone can gimp now.
It took work not to have Brinstar banned in this ruleset cause the Fox players *****ed that they took to much damage if they got hit by lava and got juggled. The idea of retreating to a platform instead of just being aggro is beyond many people, even today.
Lovage
Smash Hero
i don't think you brawl dudes know this game anymore as well as you think you do
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
agreed .
Yea, that's it, if there is a dissenting opinion it must be because I've spent the last 18 months playing Brawl. It wouldn't have anything to do with the 60+ months prior to that I spent playing Melee every day.
Screw attacking the logic of the arguments, instead, attack the person presenting the argument! That will certainly prove how right you are!
Screw attacking the logic of the arguments, instead, attack the person presenting the argument! That will certainly prove how right you are!
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
The past three pages have taught me that AlphaZealot chooses characters based on the stages he's playing on. Mr. SuperModerater has shown us all a godly new way to think about Melee; Characters don't matter, it's all about the stages. Let's forget the part the he's spent that past 18 months playing Brawl.
Overswarm
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AZ mained Peach in Melee.
If it makes you feel any better, I beat just about every player I ever played on my CP stages and tested each of them thoroughly and violently fought for the keeping any non-broken stage and against the keeping of any broken stage. I probably still know more about stages in that game than 99% of everyone that plays Melee to this day.
AZ, I think this is one of those cases where people get emotional. Now that all the good Melee players quit, this is their time to feel important. We should let them have their time.
If it makes you feel any better, I beat just about every player I ever played on my CP stages and tested each of them thoroughly and violently fought for the keeping any non-broken stage and against the keeping of any broken stage. I probably still know more about stages in that game than 99% of everyone that plays Melee to this day.
AZ, I think this is one of those cases where people get emotional. Now that all the good Melee players quit, this is their time to feel important. We should let them have their time.
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
are you being serious...?
Overswarm
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Hi, I'm Overswarm. I don't believe we've met.
(also, the klap trap is on a timer so it isn't russian roulette)
I too wish to be high and mighty... teach me!
TheZhuKeeper
Smash Champion
Overswarm, I think this is one of those cases where sucky Melee players get emotional. Now that they're good at a ****ty game, this is their time to feel important. I should let let you guys have your time.
Edit: Whoops I was addressing you so I had to change the last sentence.
Lovage
Smash Hero
lol say word zhu
Lovage
Smash Hero
yeah, i thought i was hot **** in brawl too and knew everything about the game back when i played it. you don't see me trying to speak with any authority on what the game is TODAY. stick to what you know.
Whoa F that, Melee is not a ****ty game.
Overswarm
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x After Dawn x
Smash Master
i'm fairly glad we haven't.
back to the brawl boards you go?
is this some attempt at being funny, or trying to defend brawl, or what...?
Lovage
Smash Hero
he's saying zhu thinks zhu is important because he's one of the best melee players now
BORING TROLLS
if only they didn't have colorful names people wouldn't take them seriously
BORING TROLLS
if only they didn't have colorful names people wouldn't take them seriously
This community was built on the mentality I'm presenting. It will be destroyed on the mentality some of you are presenting. This includes your attitudes toward any dissenting opinions, not just your attitudes toward how to craft a stagelist.
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
The better part is that you're not part of the Melee BR anymore and your purple name is for playing Brawl.
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
As much as I hate the fact that all my cool CPs are gone, you guys are digging yourselves a fairly deep hole. Go back to your shelter while you still can.
Lovage
Smash Hero
decent thread ruined by bitter trolls
MAYBE NEXT TIME KIDDOS
MAYBE NEXT TIME KIDDOS
Overswarm
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It is more like laying foundations for a house.
The idea that "flat stages with (or without) FLAT platforms are balanced" isn't new.
You might not know this, but we had more character variety. This could be natural, as we had more players and more frequent tournaments, but I doubt that. We had a lot more stages than are on this list, and many more than the list we had prior to the creation of this one. Those stages were taken off as time passed and we were proven in tournament play that certain stages should or shouldn't be allowed. Until this list we had tournament evidence for every banned stage... including Hyrule Temple. As time went on, the list shrank and so did the character roster. Our "top tier" wasn't created by character viability alone: it was also created by the stages we started off on. This was accented by having nothing but flat/plat "neutrals". Stages like Yoshi's Island made Marth and Falcon orgasm while characters like Samus were less than pleased. Pokemon Stadium did wonders for Fox but wasn't exactly a Peach and Jiggs paradise. So on and so forth.
If Mute City and Kongo Jungle 64 had been "neutrals", Peach would have undoubtedly been a top tier character and Sheik wouldn't have been nearly as dominant.
You get the idea.
From the lessons learned in Melee, (most) Brawl players learned that there is no such thing as a "fair" stage and that stages DO determine character viability. Fox is about as good as a character gets, and he's still put at a disadvantage on multiple stages.
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
Does any of this really matter? btw I'm not a troll, I'm just an idiot.
Overswarm
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Knowledge is always important.
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
I mean why are we arguing? It's just causing pointless animosity between you old school guys and us who are faithful to Melee.
Albert.
Smash Master
that's cause ffs players were not good enough to crush your soul for playing a bad character back then.
Skler
Smash Master
Mogwai represents with a 100% correct statement.
I do love it when people who don't play low tiers or enter tournaments talk about the viability of low tiers in tournaments.
I do love it when people who don't play low tiers or enter tournaments talk about the viability of low tiers in tournaments.
otg
Smash Master
EXACTLY, this is what I mean when I said that OS and AZ are out of touch. The metagame is WAY more advanced now than it was in your time, and the fact of the matter is most mid and low tiers can no longer compete REGARDLESS of the stage. There is no stage that benefits a low tier over a high tier, and yes even if you CP a Marth to Termina as a Link main, what is stopping that Marth main from busting out his spacies secondary and ****** you?
Listen I know you guys mean well and your contributions to the smash scene back in the day were great, but stick to what you know now. I guarantee that if either of you tried to pick up this game now at a competitive level (tho your region is not so great in the melee department anyway) you would be behind. I'm sure your years of exp would shine through, but too much metaknight screws with your brain
ETWIST51294
Smash Hero
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
you had more characters because at the time, the game was alot slower, alot less technical and the high tiers used less of their options giving room for some lower tier characters to play without having every single one of their weaknesses exploited on a daily basis.
Most of you wouldn't even know how advanced the metagame was in "my time". I don't think of local or even regional tournaments when I think of my time. I think of the countless hours I spent taking notes for MLG on the top 8 matches at 200 man tournaments with the highest prize money available ever in Smash. I think of watching matches every month where the difference between 1st and 2nd was $800. Most videos of this **** doesn't even exist anymore since MLG wiped their database (or so it seems). Most of the old pros can come back and wipe the floor with 95% of the people who have been playing the game everyday since Brawl came out, and that is because they were simply that far ahead of the competition back then that people have only really begun to catch up in the last year. You are thinking of the mid-level players with spotty technical skill back in the day (or lower end high level players) and judging the metagame on that. I'm judging based on the Kens/PCs/Azens/Chus/Isai/Darkrains/Shiz/M2K/Forward hell even Dope/Hugs/Chillin to an extent. These are people that met up every single month and played for absurd prize money on a national scale, and you guys think they are now super behind what is happening when on a local scale in most regions there is only monthly tournaments for 1/5th the prize money of back then.
The biggest thing I've learned in the last 7 or so years in competitive gaming is the that biggest driver for increasing the skill of any community is frequency of events with large prize money.
The metagame has progressed. Now many of the mid-level players are roughly as technical as the top players. Roughly. Unfortunately when you compare the top level players from now with those from 2007, the difference technically speaking is only slight. The biggest difference is that combo's are longer and more rehearsed so you get more 0-deaths (or so) then you did back then.
Before you guys comment, just explain what observations you had of the 2006/2007 metagame that would allow you to even compare (cause if you weren't watching FCD live, then you didn't get to see the matches, lol, same goes for almost all the MLG events and such). Afterall I've been at tons of tournaments with Melee at it still (and yes, the MW is still behind ROFL), including watching almost all the top 8 matches of Genesis in person and seeing tons of familiar stuff from back in the day. Some new stuff, but mostly old. Armada's Peachs was really the only thing that looked "fresh" in that it didn't play at all like 2007 Peachs (and from my observations, it also didn't play like 2009 Peachs, but I'm sure now everyone is copying him like everyone copied PC/M2K/Ken/Mango when they essentially revolutionized their characters). The Falco's/Sheiks'/Fox's/Marth's were essentially the same. The Jiggs and Falcons were more developed but that **** is obvious cause there were so few from back in the day and Mango grew the Jiggs movement and Scar/Darkrain/Hax helped grow the Falcon movement.
I guess the best thing would be to get a high level player like Darkrain or something to comment on the differences, both specifically for their character and overall, and that would essentially settle it. If someone I trust like Darkrain or Forward or Tope (someone playing at a high level throughout 2006/2007 and still playing at high levels today) comes in and tells me to stfu cause the metagame really is so different that I wouldn't understand it anymore then I'll listen. But I don't particular think any/most of you even really know what the 2007 metagame looked like at its peak/top level.
---
I'm not OS so don't lump what he is saying with what I am saying. I love Melee. I just don't play it anymore at tournaments (I tried but it was clear I couldn't switch between Melee and Brawl so I had to focus on one, turned out I did pretty good at Brawl so its obvious I would stick with that). Its the same **** with Mario Kart 64 or Mario 64 or some other game I spent hundreds of hours playing. I'm just one of those gamers who moves on to the newest version. That doesn't mean I don't care what is going on still, I just go to the fresher game. It's the same reason there are so few of us who started around 2003 or so that even still follow Melee. We grew up, things get old. It's easy to stay interested in something when you only first became obsessed with it in 2007 (a result of MLG) or 2008 (a result of an influx of new people from Brawl). It is a lot harder when you were there since, essentially, the beginning.
If there is one thing I would have done differently it would have been to pass the reigns onto new people in a more formal matter. The Melee backroom basically died for a year and a half and I partly see that as my fault for focusing so much on Brawl. Melee deserves as much of a successful competitive community as Brawl does, I just didn't realize with everyone transitioning for 2-3 months to solely Brawl it would basically put Melee behind significantly. Adjustments can be made better for the next iteration, lesson learned.
The biggest thing I've learned in the last 7 or so years in competitive gaming is the that biggest driver for increasing the skill of any community is frequency of events with large prize money.
The metagame has progressed. Now many of the mid-level players are roughly as technical as the top players. Roughly. Unfortunately when you compare the top level players from now with those from 2007, the difference technically speaking is only slight. The biggest difference is that combo's are longer and more rehearsed so you get more 0-deaths (or so) then you did back then.
Before you guys comment, just explain what observations you had of the 2006/2007 metagame that would allow you to even compare (cause if you weren't watching FCD live, then you didn't get to see the matches, lol, same goes for almost all the MLG events and such). Afterall I've been at tons of tournaments with Melee at it still (and yes, the MW is still behind ROFL), including watching almost all the top 8 matches of Genesis in person and seeing tons of familiar stuff from back in the day. Some new stuff, but mostly old. Armada's Peachs was really the only thing that looked "fresh" in that it didn't play at all like 2007 Peachs (and from my observations, it also didn't play like 2009 Peachs, but I'm sure now everyone is copying him like everyone copied PC/M2K/Ken/Mango when they essentially revolutionized their characters). The Falco's/Sheiks'/Fox's/Marth's were essentially the same. The Jiggs and Falcons were more developed but that **** is obvious cause there were so few from back in the day and Mango grew the Jiggs movement and Scar/Darkrain/Hax helped grow the Falcon movement.
I guess the best thing would be to get a high level player like Darkrain or something to comment on the differences, both specifically for their character and overall, and that would essentially settle it. If someone I trust like Darkrain or Forward or Tope (someone playing at a high level throughout 2006/2007 and still playing at high levels today) comes in and tells me to stfu cause the metagame really is so different that I wouldn't understand it anymore then I'll listen. But I don't particular think any/most of you even really know what the 2007 metagame looked like at its peak/top level.
---
I'm not OS so don't lump what he is saying with what I am saying. I love Melee. I just don't play it anymore at tournaments (I tried but it was clear I couldn't switch between Melee and Brawl so I had to focus on one, turned out I did pretty good at Brawl so its obvious I would stick with that). Its the same **** with Mario Kart 64 or Mario 64 or some other game I spent hundreds of hours playing. I'm just one of those gamers who moves on to the newest version. That doesn't mean I don't care what is going on still, I just go to the fresher game. It's the same reason there are so few of us who started around 2003 or so that even still follow Melee. We grew up, things get old. It's easy to stay interested in something when you only first became obsessed with it in 2007 (a result of MLG) or 2008 (a result of an influx of new people from Brawl). It is a lot harder when you were there since, essentially, the beginning.
If there is one thing I would have done differently it would have been to pass the reigns onto new people in a more formal matter. The Melee backroom basically died for a year and a half and I partly see that as my fault for focusing so much on Brawl. Melee deserves as much of a successful competitive community as Brawl does, I just didn't realize with everyone transitioning for 2-3 months to solely Brawl it would basically put Melee behind significantly. Adjustments can be made better for the next iteration, lesson learned.