MBR Official Rule Set

[Skler]

You just proved our point. Low tiers are garbage when your average player can do infinite drill shines across FD. The average player now is far beyond the average player in 2007.

 

[john!]

Now how did I miss this gem of a thread?

I wasn't playing before this year so I can't comment. But from the look of YouTube videos, there have been huge changes in the metagame even in the past few years, and the two aren't really comparable.

 

[Mogwai]

Most of you wouldn't even know how advanced the metagame was in "my time". I don't think of local or even regional tournaments when I think of my time. I think of the countless hours I spent taking notes for MLG on the top 8 matches at 200 man tournaments with the highest prize money available ever in Smash. I think of watching matches every month where the difference between 1st and 2nd was $800. Most videos of this **** doesn't even exist anymore since MLG wiped their database (or so it seems). Most of the old pros can come back and wipe the floor with 95% of the people who have been playing the game everyday since Brawl came out, and that is because they were simply that far ahead of the competition back then that people have only really begun to catch up in the last year. You are thinking of the mid-level players with spotty technical skill back in the day (or lower end high level players) and judging the metagame on that. I'm judging based on the Kens/PCs/Azens/Chus/Isai/Darkrains/Shiz/M2K/Forward hell even Dope/Hugs/Chillin to an extent. These are people that met up every single month and played for absurd prize money on a national scale, and you guys think they are now super behind what is happening when on a local scale in most regions there is only monthly tournaments for 1/5th the prize money of back then.

The biggest thing I've learned in the last 7 or so years in competitive gaming is the that biggest driver for increasing the skill of any community is frequency of events with large prize money.

The metagame has progressed. Now many of the mid-level players are roughly as technical as the top players. Roughly. Unfortunately when you compare the top level players from now with those from 2007, the difference technically speaking is only slight. The biggest difference is that combo's are longer and more rehearsed so you get more 0-deaths (or so) then you did back then.

Before you guys comment, just explain what observations you had of the 2006/2007 metagame that would allow you to even compare (cause if you weren't watching FCD live, then you didn't get to see the matches, lol, same goes for almost all the MLG events and such). Afterall I've been at tons of tournaments with Melee at it still (and yes, the MW is still behind ROFL), including watching almost all the top 8 matches of Genesis in person and seeing tons of familiar stuff from back in the day. Some new stuff, but mostly old. Armada's Peachs was really the only thing that looked "fresh" in that it didn't play at all like 2007 Peachs (and from my observations, it also didn't play like 2009 Peachs, but I'm sure now everyone is copying him like everyone copied PC/M2K/Ken/Mango when they essentially revolutionized their characters). The Falco's/Sheiks'/Fox's/Marth's were essentially the same. The Jiggs and Falcons were more developed but that **** is obvious cause there were so few from back in the day and Mango grew the Jiggs movement and Scar/Darkrain/Hax helped grow the Falcon movement.

I guess the best thing would be to get a high level player like Darkrain or something to comment on the differences, both specifically for their character and overall, and that would essentially settle it. If someone I trust like Darkrain or Forward or Tope comes in and tells me to stfu cause the metagame really is so different that I wouldn't understand it anymore then I'll listen. But I don't particular think any/most of you even really know what the 2007 metagame looked like at its peak/top level.

---

I'm not OS so don't lump what he is saying with what I am saying. I love Melee. I just don't play it anymore at tournaments (I tried but it was clear I couldn't switch between Melee and Brawl so I had to focus on one, turned out I did pretty good at Brawl so its obvious I would stick with that). Its the same **** with Mario Kart 64 or Mario 64 or some other game I spent hundreds of hours playing. I'm just one of those gamers who moves on to the newest version. That doesn't mean I don't care what is going on still, I just go to the fresher game.

sorry, I had clearly forgotten that playing for more money means you were playing better. i'd try arguing with you, but I didn't get top 16 at an MLG, so I clearly don't know what I'm talking about.

 

[ETWIST51294]

AZ, what do you feel about Ganons metagame? His metagame is completely different then it was back in 07-08

 

[AlphaZealot]

You just proved our point. Low tiers are garbage when your average player can do infinite drill shines across FD. The average player now is far beyond the average player in 2007.

This is true. They were also garbage back in 2007 cause all the top level players were already doing that. However, this would make it seem that it has nothing to do with the stages and more to do with control over the character (cause now the low tier guys get filtered out before the middle of the pack tournament players, instead of the top low tier players getting filtered out by the high level players), in which case regardless of the stage list the low tier characters are ****ed.

sorry, I had clearly forgotten that playing for more money means you were playing better.

Wow. If you don't think $8,000 in top 8 prizes every month means people
-Traveling more
-Practicing more
-Playing better as a direct result of traveling more/playing more
-Not ******* around
-Taking **** more seriously

Then you are an idiot, which is saying a lot, because I didn't think you were one Mogwai.

I never said you had to place top 16. I simply said you had to be there and you had to watch, cause the videos are scarce and the quality videos are few and far between from the time period. If you weren't there to watch it first hand then you really don't have an accurate perception of the metagame.

Lets flip it around though: where would the community be right now if
-Tournaments didn't happen?
-Tournaments that did happen occurred for ZERO prize money

 

[Skler]

That's the point I've been trying to make! Low tiers are terrible regardless of stage, allowing stages would not make them more viable. They aren't doing worse because of rule sets, they're doing worse because there's a limit on how well a low tier can do (barring exceptional players who would do far better if they used a high tier character).

As the average player gets better being a low tier main gets more and more depressing. There's nothing sadder than watching low tier tournament placements get lower and lower

 

[AlphaZealot]

I agree with you Skyler (that low tiers are ****ed regardless of stage list). However, that doesn't mean removing stages won't hurt low tiers (simply because you are removing options, and anytime you do that you hurt every character/player across the board). If you have 15 stages for options as opposed to 9, chances are you will find a better option for a stage REGARDLESS of your character. This also means the higher tiered characters will have better options to, but since they already win on all the starters why would it matter if they likewise win on the cp stages? They will just take you to a starter game 1 and, if they lose on a 'janky' CP stage, they will win on another starter or on another cp stage for game 3. At least you got a game out of it. Now your options are all limited to almost the same type of stage (and I'll predict Cruise/Brinstar being gone in a year, and maybe Kongo 64/PS1 soon after that), and on that type of stage you already know you lose to top tiers.

 

[Mogwai]

Wow. If you don't think $8,000 in top 8 prizes every month means people
-Traveling more
-Practicing more
-Playing better as a direct result of traveling more/playing more
-Not ******* around
-Taking their **** more seriously

Then you are an idiot, which is saying a lot, because I didn't think you were one Mogwai.

I never said you had to place top 16. I simply said you had to be there and you had to watch, cause the videos are scarce and the quality videos are few and far between from the time period. If you weren't there to watch it first hand then you really don't have an accurate perception of the metagame.

if you think that all of those things necessarily mean a higher level of play, then what discussion can there be? players still travel, players still practice, and they still play better because of it. only difference, is that now they've been doing it for 2 more years. maybe those 2 years would've been more fruitful with MLG sponsorship, but don't give me this **** that what's happened to the game is meanless because we're playing for Ken's scraps.

if you haven't noticed, the players keeping the game alive have not been the ones who were making that money when it was around. we play for the love of the game, and we're **** good at it, so don't talk to us like you know when you've moved to greener pastures that are infinitely more boring.

 

[AlphaZealot]

players still travel, players still practice, and they still play better because of it. only difference, is that now they've been doing it for 2 more years. maybe those 2 years would've been more fruitful with MLG sponsorship, but don't give me this **** that what's happened to the game is meanless because we're playing for Ken's scraps.

if you haven't noticed, the players keeping the game alive have not been the ones who were making that money when it was around. we play for the love of the game, and we're **** good at it, so don't talk to us like you know when you've moved to greener pastures that are infinitely more boring.

Your reading comprehension fails.

The metagame has progressed. Now many of the mid-level players are roughly as technical as the top players. Roughly. Unfortunately when you compare the top level players from now with those from 2007, the difference technically speaking is only slight. The biggest difference is that combo's are longer and more rehearsed so you get more 0-deaths (or so) then you did back then.

Didn't I say the exact same thing you did?

If players didn't still travel, if they didn't still play for money--then I would never ever say something like "the metagame has progressed". No, I would say it was "stagnant". I would not have talked about Jiggs or Falcon and them being played at, essentially, a way higher level then 2007.

Melee, afterall, is still larger then every fighting game except for Brawl/SFIV.

Also, your welcome, I helped significantly in building the pasture you now occupy. My bad for not appreciating you keeping a scene going that I helped create. You don't even know the **** we had to deal with building everything from scratch.

 

[Mogwai]

Your reading comprehension fails.



Didn't I say the exact same thing you did?

If players didn't still travel, if they didn't still play for money--then I would never ever say something like "the metagame has progressed". No, I would say it was "stagnant". I would not have talked about Jiggs or Falcon and them being played at, essentially, a way higher level then 2007.

Melee, afterall, is still larger then every fighting game except for Brawl/SFIV.

Also, your welcome, I helped significantly in building the pasture you now occupy.

you're

anyway, perhaps I group you in with a certain group of old thinkers that you don't 100% conform with.

I still don't get how you think more stages than the current 9 will make the game accessible. I happen to agree with Cactuar in that competitive fighting games in general are about character vs. character and player vs. player specific strategies and their development. An overly high level of diversity among stages hinders these aspects and heightens this other aspect that most players are entirely unconcerned with. Having some killer strategy that lets you win game 2 on icicle mountain doesn't foster the skills that 99% of the community care about. So whatever, you can talk about how it's limiting to restrict stages and how that's going to kill the community, but the fact is that you are out of touch with this community and the amount of dissent over these rules are minimal at best. The amount of players upset about mute and corneria gone are far fewer than the numbers who were getting driven away from auto-losing counterpick games due to their character choice.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Mogwai: I have no problem with this ruleset so long as the words
"broken"

Are not used to justify the removal of any stage, because that is just plain false and untrue.

It is as you said, the prevailing winds believe stages should be meaningless and have minimal effect on gameplay. Unfortunately I started playing competitively when this was the very factor that made our game stand out and become noticed. It was almost a point of pride that Melee had more complex variables then just a flat service. That zoning wasn't just limited to center and sides of stages. Now? I think the community has been influenced to much by other fighting games. We were always successful because we differentiated ourselves from them. They hated us for it, to. And they hated our success. That is partly why I think a narrow stage list will kill the community--not because low tiers or some BS like that, but that what is really to separate the game of Smash from any other fighting game when one of the most unique aspects is essentially limited to oblivion? We already got rid of the other differentiating factor (items) and I know arguing about items would be a lost cause, but at least we had stages.

 

[ETWIST51294]

^^ that is a very good point

 

[Mogwai]

still, the only great set that immediately comes to my mind that used more than the traditional "starter 6" stages is PC vs. Vidjo. and while that was to me a very interesting pair of sets for me to watch, such sets become less and less entertaining as they become the norm. the first time peach takes a spacey to mute, it's brilliant, the millionth time, we just wanna play on a more balanced stage... cause the last thing we wanna do is camp them on Pokefloats for 8 minutes, but god help us, if they get their autowin, we'll take ours, and that in the end, makes sets much less interesting and fun.

 

[Lovage]

edit: wrong place

 

[Mogwai]

eh, give it a rest lovage, save it for when Overswarm starts posting again.

AZ seems like he means perfectly well.

 

[AlphaZealot]

You gotta watch Bum's play on Brinstar/Japes with DK. He is nasty. To a lesser extent DL64.

Bum vs m2k (Fox) on Brinstar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHoVKxh5-Uc&feature=related
Bum vs PC (Peach) on Brinstar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fp71hNaUAvI&feature=related
Bum vs M2K (Fox) on Japes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCVT9GNMgZ4
(M2K lost to some klap trap **** at the end, true, but that doesn't take away how well Bum played)
Also Pokefloats:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYKdw9fPfwE&feature=related#movie_player
You can see the fall-through-the-stage glitch happen. M2K either didn't know about it or wasn't thinking about it, but I was sitting next to Isai during this match and Isai commented BEFORE M2K died that he needed to avoid that spot.
or this on pokefloats:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7E4mDjyD5A&feature=related#movie_player
Watch Bums last kill. While he ended up SD'ing from it, he came mad close to pulling off something very difficult and more interesting then just seeing FD/BF/PS/etc for the thousandth time.

 

[Skler]

Zoning on stupid stages is still about center and edges. The difference on Mute is that the center is the only portion of the stage you can be on and there are no edges.

All stages with unique zoning were left in (Rainbow Cruise). What did we remove that had unique zoning? Corneria with fin camping? Come on, you know platforms and freedom of movement are what make smash different. Having a stage that features exploding blocks and apples that can kill you is not what makes Melee a great game.

Melee is great because, unlike every other fighter out there, you have unparalleled freedom of movement. Want to run away and camp? Fine. Want to hop onto that platform, slide off it and kick your opponent in the back of the head? Go for it, champ.

Edit: Brinstar is legal. Japes is pretty unanimously hated by every single person in the world and boils down to camp a platform or attack at a disadvantage (unless you're puff/peach who don't need land).

 

[Lovage]

eh, give it a rest lovage, save it for when Overswarm starts posting again.

AZ seems like he means perfectly well.

that's what i realized after i read his posts

its all good <3

 

[AlphaZealot]

Melee is great because, unlike every other fighter out there, you have unparalleled freedom of movement.

I do agree with this as well. I hate all those other fighting games because I feel like I have glue stuck to my shoes (there are a couple exceptions to this rule but for the most part this is true).

Skler: I had to fight to keep Brinstar legal. It won't be for long.

Also, yes, Corneria had a lot of crazy stuff because of the fin (it was one of my favorite stages). It opened up a whole new...mini-game of sorts that I really liked. Peach benefited a lot and you could use things like her extended bomber to penetrate fin campers (basically double-triple the length of Peach's normal Side-B). Then a lot of characters got some new tactics with their up-B courtesy of the ledge on the fin removing recovery time.

 

[Lovage]

on an unrelated note

i disagree with the notion that you can memorize rehearsed combos in melee, this isn't street fighter. maybe in 2006 they didn't have players with amazing SDI, but they're emerging now.

using your "rehearsed" combos is infinitely harder against very experienced and resourceful players like mango, you have to let your creativity do the rest of the work (using platforms, mixing up your offense to trick them into using defensive techniques like SDI inappropriately)

try playing mango with the same falco combos you practiced on your local competition. you'll get 15% per hit, and he will end up on top

 

[Mogwai]

corneria's layout also hugely promotes camping and is imbalanced towards Fox and Falco in this respect. it also has a random element that can completely change the result a game (unless the arwings are on a timer and I didn't get the memo).

 

[Fletch]

the first time peach takes a spacey to mute, it's brilliant, the millionth time, we just wanna play on a more balanced stage... cause the last thing we wanna do is camp them on Pokefloats for 8 minutes, but god help us, if they get their autowin, we'll take ours, and that in the end, makes sets much less interesting and fun.

I agree with this 100%. I still don't see how having more stages would promote more diversity though if that's what you guys are arguing AZ and OS, because then absolutely everyone would need to play Fox as he pretty much destroys on every potential CP stage barring a couple exceptions (which he is still usually very good on). If it wasn't for Fox though, I might agree with you.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Lovage: rehearsed as in you do the same thing all the time for hundreds of matches and learn to follow DI/SDI and such. Not rehearsed as in "if I do this move then I'll do this and then I'll do this". Although that is partially true to an extent if you have ever talked to M2K he knows which moves to follow with which and at what percents its weird but he is an exceptional case. Most people I believe naturally learn how to follow up and extend combos by the simple practice of...repetition. You aren't actively thinking about it, but you are subconsciously reaching for your past experiences and what worked and what didn't.

Mogwai: the ships are easy to avoid you can hear them coming from the sides well before they shoot and you can see them coming from the background well before they approach. As per Fox/Falco dominating...I've never really agreed. There are a ton of characters that get extra strats under that fin and can you really say they dominate more on Corneria then they do on starters? Especially considering under the fin the only new thing Fox can do is wall infinite (powerful, true, but also broken up courtesy of the arwings), while Fox/Falco have some of the worst under-fin to edge-of-fin options (think Marth's Up-B). Not to mention KO's at the side of the stage are roughly as good for them as for most other characters, so there is nothing exceptional. The problem comes from if Fox grabs a lead and camps top side, cause then you get boned from like 60% uair/usmash deaths. The solution though is just not to lose the lead, cause Fox can bone you with camping on just about any stage. The difference on Corneria imo is that you can camp under the fin and Fox has to at least come to you a few times to get that lead unlike other stages where he can laser from across the stage uninhibited.

 

[Lovage]

az: why do you make it sound like this is a bad thing. the way you just described it could be in obama's 2010 speech to get melee in every home in america.

 

[AlphaZealot]

I don't know? LOL. I didn't think this:

The biggest difference is that combo's are longer and more rehearsed so you get more 0-deaths (or so) then you did back then.

Really had any negative or positive connotations. It was just an observation, as is most of what I post. If there were a better word then "rehearsed" without writing an Obama paragraph I'd use that instead.

 

[Lovage]

sorry for not being more clear, i wasn't talking about what u said in this thread

i was just remembering nonsense you wrote in 2008
http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=444

maybe you've changed your mind since then, but that blog always bugged me because of all the dumb stuff u were saying about how combos work in melee

 

[Skler]

You shouldn't have to actively think in a combo, it's a combo because it happens fast enough to combo! If you have the time to think "I just hit them with my nair, I could dash and do another one which might link to more, shine and wavedash out of it to follow up up a grab or do a dair and hope they don't SDI through me" then that's way too easy. You should already have a good idea of what you can do out of hits and be able to react to DI. It's a good thing you don't have enough time to think out your moves or every single hit would lead to 0-deaths.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Yea that is an old blog and it was intentionally harsher on Melee then it should have been simply to counteract the extreme aggressiveness of the times. Keep in mind if I write a blog like that there is a purpose and an intent, along with an intended audience. More importantly was that I intentionally exaggerated details. Of course Melee combo's are not Brawl final smashes, that is just dumb, lol, but it was to drive a point in. Much (almost all) of what was written was true at a base level. The main thing was more to focus on what made Brawl good (tons of thought) and I may have stung Melee more then I should have as a result. The problem at that time period was no one in the Brawl community knew how to counteract points being made by Melee players so someone had to step up and unfortunately more often then not when it comes to playing devils advocate that person is me (quite often I argue for no other purpose then to make people think more about their own decisions).

My thinking on both games also continues to evolve as well so clearly I won't agree with everything I wrote over a year and a half ago still. Playing Brawl has actually made me better at Melee and I'm not the only person I've talked to who has experienced this. I wish I could apply what I know now with the technical skill I had back then.

 

[Cosmo!]

its not rehearsing combos so much as it is players recognizing certain situations and knowing the best move to try to guarantee the greatest advantage

 

[AlphaZealot]

So...this:

You aren't actively thinking about it, but you are subconsciously reaching for your past experiences and what worked and what didn't.

 

[Cosmo!]

agreed .

 

[Eggm]

What loveage is referring to is that players more and more are getting good at the real little fast things in melee that are super hard to do or even notice that other people do that get you out of combos and turn them into your combos. Let me give you an example in the past few months that has lost me a few tournament sets. Down air shine wavedash up smash is basically guaranteed right? Wrong lol, not in 2009. Now players are smash DIing the dair hits out of shine range grabbing you and then doing their own death grab combos. I'm not saying players didn't do this in 07/08 the very top players did. M2k used to do it and a few others like maybe cactuar/cort and others. But now like players ranked 5th and 8th in their reigons like hbk, vanz, hax, scar, etc and even scrubs do this at alarming rates. This is just one small example. If you really pay attention while you watch mango play you will realize that he smash DI's EVERYTHING. Hes really good at smash DIing down and teching and standing right up like really really good. He does it to moves that should have sent him off the stage and start being edge guarded, but instead are like roll distance away from people shooting lasers before their move even ends lol, and now hes on top as far as whose advantage it is. These are just 2 quick examples there are a ton more however.

Also I agree with all the posters saying you and overswarm are behind in the current metagame and its affecting your arguments. Cause you just are.. I'm not good at arguing so I can't tell you why, but you are lol. I am however good at noticing little things that happen to me and others in game since I am current with the metgame. So I just put my 2 cents in about what loveage is trying to get across. If theres a way to get out of stuff that would work on any other player with smash DI, mango will smash DI it and **** you before you even realized why your "auto" combo didn't work lol, which is why he is by far the best player. But more and more common players not even top players are starting to do these things.

I completely agree with you on that the MLG days were the MOST serious i'm so mad I missed them. NOTHING ever compares to traveling around every single month with travel vouchers and playing for that big of prize pools. The amount of experience those players gained during that time was RIDICULOUS. There is no reason at all why players like azen and chu can almost beat me without hardly practicing melee even tho I've gone to melee tournaments every weekend since brawl came out other than those MLG days gave them so much base metagame experience. To barley beat them I had to use all the 2009 tech skil and awareness that I could muster just to barley beat them. And chu murdered jman at shell shocked whose been keeping up with melee more than chu and is a "top" player of our metagame era. So hes right in saying any of those old mlg guys could practice a little and come back and **** 95% of our "new advanced metagame" people. Our metagame advanced but at a much much slower rate than what they were doing in those mlg days. And it is because of the money and travel vouchers and stuff.


I do not agree at all with the stages thing tho. Your wrong about that. The new ruleset is wayyyyyy better for character diversity.

Back in those MLG days you love SO MUCH Fox, sheik, and marth won every single tournament ever. With the exception of Chu and ic's once a long while. Nowadays you see ganons , peaches, falcons, jiggs, and the return of falco all with legitimate chance to win nationals or big tournies like saffron or winning them. Of course sometimes fox and sheik still win and are prominent in the top 10 or whatever, but you also see those other characters which never used to happen. Theres like literally 2 good marth mains in the whole US right now hbk and arc from texas. Fox is starting to fall off. Jman hardly cares about the game cactuar quit, its like me and colbol and......... .... are there any top foxes around?? And me and colbol are just really good not top players. Fox/marth completely fell off and are moving aside for those other characters mentioned above. Even with the new ruleset which was jused at saffron and a bunch of other tournies. To me it seems like you can go further down the tier list and have a more legit chance to win tournies than you could in the mlg days with more stages. I really don't think more stages = more character viability. Axe is doing just fine with new rules with pikachu. KA-master will still most likely **** at pound 4. If bum kept up with the game since brawl came out he'd do just fine too. There just aren't many mid tier masters anymore. Its not cause of lack of crazy stages tho. Hugs still does really well at WC tournies he took at match off mango and got 2nd at a recent WC tourney. He probably didn't need corneria, jungle japes, green greens (which has item carriers that are random bombs(apples)) which is why items are banned in the first place I think to accomplish this. i'm too tried to keep posing and my fingers are freezing I also suck at this.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Eggm: that was a good post, and I appreciate that you took the time to make it. I think it cleared some stuff up on both sides.

 

[Lovage]

shoutouts to eggm for seeing the same stuff i see when it comes to combos

most people don't realize how fuking technical mango is lol

or up-and-coming players like s2j (falcon). yesterday i drilled his shield on the middle of a battlefield platform, and he intentionally shield DI'd it all the way off the platform and uair'd me right after. WTF????

back at ROM1, even jfox was SDIing out of my drillshines and grabbing me right after.

the metagame is advancing more and more and proving how retardedly deep this game is. to add to eggm's post, one way you can look at it is that MLG was the base, from 2005-2007 we learned the foundations of this game and took it very far. 2007-2009 has been the refinement and advancement of everything we know. learning ways to get out of everything that used to be guaranteed, and learning even further ways to counteract that.

 

[KAOSTAR]

one minor thing I would like to say about brinstar mute city and pokefloats.

I particularly dont like any of these stages but I feel they put enough characters at a disadvantage in ways of recovering that make them effective counter picks while not overly affecting the normal game play.

if fox, falco, marth, sheik cant grab the ledge they become easy to edgeguard. and on mute city the fast fallers take lots of extra damage which tend to give lower tier character a better chance at least in that aspect.

I dont see it as cp vs a top tier but a cp vs a certain type of recovery.

m2, pikchu, pichus, all have less lag when they fall a bit b4 they land, link and yl have grapples which help, zelda(bad recovery) and G W have good distance from and up B. Yoshi has that armor for his second jump, and kirby has like 6. Dont pick ness.

I just think individual abilities from player to player can be exploited or extended based on stage as well.

Edit: if there was still a dispute on stage selection=variety in character selection, you could have a low tier list of cpable stages in which your character must be below a certain point on the tier list. You could then watch the result and see that the tournament placings hadnt changed proving that nobody likes those stages and top tiers still have an advantage on them.

 

[Eggm]

When talking about fox I forgot about lucky/raynex sorry guys much <3 we fox players gotta stick together. You've been getting more and more beast too loveage. I honestly feel like fox is starting to fall behind in the metagame at least around here with jman/cactuar not coming to stuff / quitting. HBK and vanz and others in my area are just learning how to CC or smash DI every approach I do and then really punishing hard with grab combos... lol. I don't know how it is on WC well acutally I do mango wins everything with whatever character he wants. xD

Or I'm just too aggressive lol. I should just camp more like jman. ****.

 

[Paladin77]

I agree with this 100%. I still don't see how having more stages would promote more diversity though if that's what you guys are arguing AZ and OS, because then absolutely everyone would need to play Fox as he pretty much destroys on every potential CP stage barring a couple exceptions (which he is still usually very good on). If it wasn't for Fox though, I might agree with you.

YEah. I agree with it too.

Great ruleset

 

[Eggm]

Yeah while stages like jungle japes can maybe help a char like DK or something, it completey ***** luigi, doc, mario, ic's, and others lol. Just look at how diverse melee is lately. Peach getting 2nd at genesis. Peach vs jiggs finals lol. Has that ever happened at a national ever? Also ROM 2 had a ganon in the top 5 and 3 jiggs lol. Winterfest just had 2 jiggs 1 mario 1 fox and 1 1 marth and 1 ganon. Crazy results. Saffron had a FALCON win it lol when's the last time falcon won a reigonal? 2nd place was ic's/peach lmao. I see many more chars nowadays.

 

[Deleted member]

a few things:

-what OS said, I'm not a real mod. I mod forums that no one cares about.
-OS: melee did have an ideal rule set back in 2002, just that no one used it. which tbh isn't any different than the 2005 list.
-stages were not added/removed due to character balance. the current rules mirror what the MBR thinks are best for practicality and competition in a tournament setting. that is all.
-even with character balance factored in, more stages severely hinders character selection and reduces versatility. recall that most of the current banned stages list was banned SOLELY on the merit that fox exists. we realized this problem almost immediately and thus decided to ignore character performance completely, instead favoring the logistics of operating a tournament.

 

[stingers]

Why don't you guys do character specific stage bans like 64 does?