Matchups Chart & Lists - Updated: 29/Oct

[Gates]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8529809&postcount=1

Average and update please.

Thank yees

Yeah, ignore this.

There is only 1 Dedede matchup thread. We don't need another.

Also, Dedede vs. MK is 40:60 in the thread. idk if you caught that before.

 

[FatJackieChan]

Yo, why are the sides uneven. You should make the character boards agree and then post.

 

[zeldspazz]

Yo, why are the sides uneven. You should make the character boards agree and then post.

Theres no ****ing agreeing on SWF
So how I disagreed there ^^

 

[Cold Fusion]

Theres no ****ing agreeing on SWF
So how I disagreed there ^^

Shut up1!!!11 There is only agreeing on SWF.
See how I disagreed there?
Oh wait...

 

[zeldspazz]

Shut up1!!!11 There is only agreeing on SWF.
See how I disagreed there?
Oh wait...

Mindgames >_> lol

 

[phi1ny3]

Yo, why are the sides uneven. You should make the character boards agree and then post.

Two reasons usually account, besides old/outdated MU ratios and "restarts":
1: Severe character bias, usually applies to how one board views everyone else (ex. Pit, TL, Yoshi, Jigglypuff), it's sad, but it only takes the loudest to make his point sound the most important. This isn't always a bad thing, usually scrubby "theorycrafters" really have to take hard advice/truth from a pro on the MU even if it sounds odd ended, merely because he knows how it plays out, as opposed to an improbable scenario.
2: Player difference will always make certain MUs change, unless it's a **** advantage, you can have someone play a MU differently WITHIN REASON (doesn't mean I can say bad play is a viable option) at highest levels of play and still technically not be wrong. Hence there will be disagreements even within the character discussion (for example, I think Marth vs. Lucario is 45:55, but I think snake is 35:65 (both disadvantages)) It's not technically wrong, it's how one views the tools/scenarios.
tl;dr MU's are icky, but they do gauge metagame in many ways.
inb4falliblerebuttals

 

[rPSIvysaur]

BTW we've determined that the MU for Lucas vs. Lucario is 45:55 Lucario advantage it's arguable slightly for 40:60 so just put 44:56

 

[Gates]

Lots of little changes to the Dedede matchup thread.

 

[phi1ny3]

^You don't necessarily have to change the number because of one person unless they state their reasons, unless you wanted to.
Just saying.
Although Ksizzle is a beast lucario...
Edit: lol ninja'd

 

[Gates]

It was actually like 8 or so people and it's a few matchups that aren't really debated over. There are just has many matchups that I haven't changed despite several people saying it should be.

 

[Llumys]

This definitely needs a huge update.

 

[phi1ny3]

Final ratios for the lucario boards (now we get to rediscuss, hooray! :D):
Mario: 60:40 Lucario's favor
Lucas: 60:40 Lucario's favor
Yoshi: 65:35 Lucario's favor
Jigglypuff: 60:40 Lucario's favor

 

[Ray_Kalm]

An huge update for Ganon.

 

[Pikabunz]

Come on, Ganon is not that bad!

 

[Cold Fusion]

Come on, Ganon is not that bad!

You are right! It's even worse!

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Come on, Ganon is not that bad!

He is that bad.

 

[o-Serin-o]

He hasn't a single matchup in his favor? o.o Surprising.

 

[zeldspazz]

Whats the point of even differentiating between 5:95, 10:90, and 15:85 o______o

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Whats the point of even differentiating between 5:95, 10:90, and 15:85 o______o

That's an extremely good point. Perhaps it's ganon's way of saying how much he can get ***** by someone.

 

[smashkng]

Ganon-Wario 20-80. Ganon has an infinite on Wario though still is like impossible to grab him. I think it's worse. Wario dthrow to 90% and his air camping. Probably even 90-10 Wario.
Really is Falcon 40-60? Falcon is as terrible as Ganon getting in, is gimpable with up air, Ganon has a bit better range, Ganon has better priority, power... It's pretty even. Some matches Falcon ***** Ganon and in others it's viceversa.

Can Zelda camp Ganon? Din is extremely easy to deal with. You can't camp with it except against I think IC (because of spot dodge and air dodge delay of Nana).

And Luigi is 30-70? Luigi has terrible range (obviously worse than Ganon), poor approach, a horrible projectile and very poor mobility (only slightly better than Ganon).

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Guide to Match-Up Ratios by Praxis


50:50
Very even matchup. Definition should be fairly obvious.

55:45
No character has a true solid advantage, but one has seemingly better/easier tools,
or one character profits more from winning a rock/paper/scissors guessing game.

60:40
One character has clearly better tools in the matchup.
However, the other character does have responses him,
and the matchup is still winnable through outplaying the opponent
or out spacing his tools and countering with the weaker ones well placed.

65:35
One character has options that shut down the other's options.
Counterpicking should be considered, but it's not completely unwinnable,
but rather simply requires one player to far outplay the other.

70:30
Something about the character in the advantage completely shuts down
the other character. Counterpicking is heavily recommended -
or rely on them not knowing the matchup and you knowing it incredibly well.

Anything past 70:30
Pretty much unwinnable matchups like Dedede vs Donkey Kong.

I think everyone should keep this in mind when they complain about ratios being too close. Because obviously some people seem to forget this and post unreasonable MU's. This is not directed at anyone in particular.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Ganon-Wario 20-80. Ganon has an infinite on Wario though still is like impossible to grab him. I think it's worse. Wario dthrow to 90% and his air camping. Probably even 90-10 Wario.
Really is Falcon 40-60? Falcon is as terrible as Ganon getting in, is gimpable with up air, Ganon has a bit better range, Ganon has better priority, power... It's pretty even. Some matches Falcon ***** Ganon and in others it's viceversa.

Can Zelda camp Ganon? Din is extremely easy to deal with. You can't camp with it except against I think IC (because of spot dodge and air dodge delay of Nana).

And Luigi is 30-70? Luigi has terrible range (obviously worse than Ganon), poor approach, a horrible projectile and very poor mobility (only slightly better than Ganon).

No, no, those match-ups are accurate.

Falcon can gimp Ganon once he has 30% or higher off-stage (UAir out of dark dive). Has a much better OoS punishing game, an much easier time approaching, and a much easier time punishing Ganon's moves (than vice-versa). He's also hard for Ganon to gimp (tipmans have to properly spaced so they don't get out-prioritized).

Luigi, his tornado alone could cause Ganon trouble. All his aerials cancels out all of Ganon's approaches, he could basically just stand in one place and spam his aerials and not got punished. His recovery isn't that easy to gimp either, tornado beats Ganon's only gimp option (tipman).

Ganon's one of the few characters Zelda can camp, and you know what that means? That she could play defensively, and that's exactly what all Zelda users want.

 

[B!squick]

Bowser match up chart will have it's first update in decades later today. :D Any Sonic players who may randomly be reading can feel free to weigh in (last time, promise). If you already have previously, I wont begrudge anyone who quotes themselves, lol.

Also, we're thinking it's Bowser 55 : Sonic 45.

 

[smashkng]

Is there is someone who can pull off Sheik's chain camping on Ganon? if it's possible, then it'll be considered a stalling method. I believe without it it's about 80-20 Sheik.

 

[Ripple]

Is there is someone who can pull off Sheik's chain camping on Ganon? if it's possible, then it'll be considered a stalling method. I believe without it it's about 80-20 Sheik.

you're not stalling because you are on the stage doing an attack and not to mention very vulnerable.

it just so happens that ganon can not break through it

 

[B!squick]

Bowser updated. Need to find the dude who was updating the chart though. x_x

 

[Rajam]

K, so I don't have the exports done yet, but since the MU chart is being updated regularly again, the Lucario boards have decided on the following MU numbers:
Ganon 75:25 lucario's favor
Captain Falcon 70:30 Lucario's favor
Ike 60:40 Lucario's favor

updated

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8529809&postcount=1

Average and update please.

Thank yees

Yeah, ignore this.

There is only 1 Dedede matchup thread. We don't need another.

Also, Dedede vs. MK is 40:60 in the thread. idk if you caught that before.

Mmmm well obviously there is disagreement here; i'll keep the Dedede thread I'm currently using, and if the Dedede boards agree on something new, please let me know

Is-

Is that Wario-Sonic matchup for real?

I think I may have a heart-attack.

Is there any way I could convince you to not use that ratio?

Here is not the place to convince; go to the Wario boards and convince them to change the ratio, i just copy the info from all the boards (The Sonic ratio was taken from the second Wario link iirc)

Yo, why are the sides uneven. You should make the character boards agree and then post.

First, read the OP, and you'll find out why the sides are uneven. The thing you're asking me to do is a very hard thing to do; I'd be waiting forever on some matchups, and some ratios change all the time in some boards, making that option unviable

BTW we've determined that the MU for Lucas vs. Lucario is 45:55 Lucario advantage it's arguable slightly for 40:60 so just put 44:56

thanks; i put the ratio as 45 though, i copied the info from the Lucas' thread; maybe you could put the 44 ratio there and i'll update that the next time

Lots of little changes to the Dedede matchup thread.

updated

This definitely needs a huge update.

???

Final ratios for the lucario boards (now we get to rediscuss, hooray! :D):
Mario: 60:40 Lucario's favor
Lucas: 60:40 Lucario's favor
Yoshi: 65:35 Lucario's favor
Jigglypuff: 60:40 Lucario's favor

An huge update for Ganon.

updated both

Bowser updated. Need to find the dude who was updating the chart though. x_x

:O Please let me know whenever the Bowser OP is updated, or send me the link and post # with the new ratios

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OP updated:

20-Oct-2009: Bowser 55 Sonic; Diddy Kong 45 Luigi, Marth, Snake, 50 King Dedede; Donkey Kong 40 Wario, 50 Olimar, Toon Link; Fox 40 Meta Knight; Ganondorf 0 Sheik, 5 Falco, Snake, 10 Diddy Kong, King Dedede, Meta Knight, 15 Marth, Samus, 25 Peach, 30 Luigi, 35 Bowser, Donkey Kong, Ike, 40 Captain Falcon; King Dedede 40 Meta Knight, 55 Peach, 60 Jigglypuff, 65 Ivysaur, Wolf, 75 Ganondorf, 95 Samus; Kirby 55 Fox; Lucario 60 Ike, Jigglypuff, Lucas, Mario, 65 Captain Falcon, Yoshi, 70 Ganondorf, and backup thread erased; Lucas 40 King Dedede, 45 Lucario; Luigi 45 Wario; Mario 55 Zelda, 60 Link; Pit 55 Donkey Kong, and new thread; Wario 55 Lucario, Zero Suit Samus; Wolf 40 Falco, 50 Mr. Game & Watch; Zero Suit Samus 50 Donkey Kong, 60 Kirby, and last thread erased (and the respective ratios; the thread was older than a year)

 

[rPSIvysaur]

D***, I'm twenty minutes late...

We've resicussed Snake in the Omelete Back Room, it's now posted as 30:70...

 

[Gates]

Mmmm well obviously there is disagreement here; i'll keep the Dedede thread I'm currently using, and if the Dedede boards agree on something new, please let me know

We merged them actually, so everything should be fine now.

 

[Kinzer]

@Rajam:

I know this is not the place to discuss Matchups, but I was hoping you would consider... you know... not using the ratio at all? It's not even the main matchup thread for the Wario boards, plus nobody with any idea of either character would agree to such an absurd ratio.

If your answer is still no however, I will be more than happy to do it your way.

Spoiler

Are you at Burger King by some chance?

 

[phi1ny3]

See, as much as I hate the number system, they really do map character potential in a way tourney standings couldn't.

 

[B!squick]

:O Please let me know whenever the Bowser OP is updated, or send me the link and post # with the new ratios

Rajam, perhaps you should check your eyes. >.> The OP was updated. I should know, I'm the one who updated it, lol. But it seems like we'll need a new chart as Mmac hasn't been on in 3 months. Just scroll down to the bottom of the post and you'll see the new numbers.

 

[Shahryar2010]

Wow Mario has better matchups then Luigi now.

 

[TLMSheikant]

TL boards decided that the wolf and fox matchups are 50-50 even.

 

[WolfenMiatang]

Thanks for the time to post something like this up ^_^
But yeah Im surprised that Mario has better maatchups than Luigi which I first assumed Luigi had more -_-

 

[Ripple]

maybe because luigi only has his worst match ups done? and mario is basically complete

just throwing that out there since I'm not blind

 

[Pink murder]

This is downright awesome. I'm bookmarking it.

Also, am I'm reading it wrong or does the R.O.B boards think its 60:40 with IC'S, and IC'S think it's 60:40 with R.O.B too?


●▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬๑۩۩๑▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬●

 

[B!squick]

No, you're reading it right. Both boards think they have a small advantage over the other.

 

[phi1ny3]

I really don't get it, ICs may be a god character, but ROB has some good tools that always seem to be overlooked just because he sux vs. MK. He has good ways to exploit "Nana's stupidity", with some really nice zoning aerials, good camp game, some nice possible separators, and lingering decently safe aerials (bair/nair). The only way I see ICs getting a huge advantage besides potentially getting the CG is their strong and good juggling game with uair (and to an extent, utilt). Plus ROB has a good gimp games.

 

[TLMSheikant]

The mk vs TL matchup is now 65-35 mk like it shouldve been D:. Sorry for the mistake >_>.