Matchups Chart & Lists - Updated: 29/Oct

[shinyspoon42]

D3 can't be camped by wolf.

With Wolf's fastfalling speed and regular jumps, he is gonna have to touch the ground, alot. D3 is going to just be waiting on the ground ready to shieldgrab any **** you try to pull, and even in the air he has bair. Dees and Doos stop you from spamming blaster, though most of the time he will be in your face anyways.

 

[Nintendude]

What do the numbers in this chart actually mean? Like, I know that 0-10 means ****, 5-5 means even, and 1-9, 2-8, etc. just represent a spectrum in between, but how are you guys actually interpreting the numbers? Without any basis for them this chart is just an arbitrary mess.

 

[B!squick]

What do the numbers in this chart actually mean? Like, I know that 0-10 means ****, 5-5 means even, and 1-9, 2-8, etc. just represent a spectrum in between, but how are you guys actually interpreting the numbers? Without any basis for them this chart is just an arbitrary mess.

Because match-up numbers themselves are arbitrary by nature. Ka durr.

 

[Nintendude]

Because match-up numbers themselves are arbitrary by nature. Ka durr.

They don't have to be. You can quantify performance, and if matchup numbers are based upon performance then they aren't necessarily arbitrary.

 

[phi1ny3]

Lucario boards have come to a consensus that the Bowser, Ness, and Samus MU are 60:40 in lucario's favor.

 

[TLMSheikant]

TL boards decided the diddy matchup was even. Same with Lucario.

 

[Rajam]

Falcon v.s IC's = 60-40 IC's favor son

Eeeehm link to that please

A few ZSS corrections:

I have the ratio you have listed and then what it should be:

GaW 50:50 -> 65:35 (zss favor) wow this ratio is old and not right lol
Pikachu 50:50 -> 55:45 (zss favor)
Kirby 50:50 -> 65:35 (zss favor)
Peach 60:40 -> 50:50 (even)
Fox 70:30 -> 55:45 (zss favor)
Wolf 50:50 -> 45:55 (wolf favor)
Samus 65:35 -> 50:50 (even)
C Falcon no ratio listed, 65:35 (zss advantage)
Ike 70:30 -> 60:40 (zss favor)
Sheik 40:60 -> 45:55 (sheik favor)

? You're trying to change ratios from the opponent's perspective, like with G&W and Pikachu... beside, i have to ask for the links to the info you are requesting to update ._.

the 2nd link for the samus data is 100% old and outdated. could u delete it plz?

zs is 65 and samus is 35. ZS has the advantage in that fight.

Updated both things. Update the ZSS ratio to the Samus' thread please though

Okay, so Lucario boards have decided that the Bowser MU is 60:40 Lucario's favor.

Updated

A few changes in Ganon's match-ups.

Ganon:Fox - 25:75 Fox's favor.

Ganon:Kirby - 35:65 Kirby's favor.

Updated; Nonetheless, update those ratios to the Ganon's thread please

It looks like your using Kirin's Thread along with mine on Link's MU's.

What would you do if we had a conflict in ratios?

I'll be using the most updated between both. At the time I'm writting this, I'm using the smashboards Link's thread

Lucas boards have agreed that the Lucas : Gamewatch ratio is now 35:65

Lucario boards have come to a consensus that the Bowser, Ness, and Samus MU are 60:40 in lucario's favor.

TL boards decided the diddy matchup was even. Same with Lucario.

Lucas, Lucario and Toon Link Updated

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OP updated:

05-Oct-2009: Donkey Kong 45 Falco, 60 Sonic; Falco 75 Link, 80 Captain Falcon; Ganondorf 25 Fox, 35 Kirby; Kirby 50 Sheik, 60 Yoshi; Link 30 Falco, 40 Pikachu, and threads priority changed; Lucario 60 Bowser, Samus; Lucas 35 Mr. Game & Watch; Luigi new thread; Mario 50 Lucas, 55 Ness; Samus 35 Zero Suit Samus, and backup thread erased (and the respective ratios); Toon Link 50 Diddy Kong; Wario 50 Falco, 55 Kirby, R.O.B., 58 Ice Climbers, 60 Diddy Kong, one backup thread erased, and new thread; Wolf 35 King Dedede; Zelda 45 Pikachu, 55 Ice Climbers

 

[B!squick]

Rajam, you should know by now that people who post on message boards don't read the most important post of a thread. That's just silly.

 

[Mclena45]

This is nice, I'll be referring to this thread every now and again...

 

[phi1ny3]

K, so I don't have the exports done yet, but since the MU chart is being updated regularly again, the Lucario boards have decided on the following MU numbers:
Ganon 75:25 lucario's favor
Captain Falcon 70:30 Lucario's favor
Ike 60:40 Lucario's favor

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

K, so I don't have the exports done yet, but since the MU chart is being updated regularly again, the Lucario boards have decided on the following MU numbers:
Ganon 75:25 lucario's favor
Captain Falcon 70:30 Lucario's favor
Ike 60:40 Lucario's favor

...ouch.

I wasn't expecting it to be that bad.

 

[CRASHiC]

I sometimes feel we underestimate ourselves against low tiers. For example, why isn't Ganon vs. Metaknight 100-0?
What can Ganon do about down air camping against Metaknight?
What can Ganon do against down air camping from DDD?
What can Ganon do against lazer camping from Falco? I lazer camp till you get in range, full hop, side b, start again, gg.

 

[LuigiKing]

This chart is pretty horrible across the board lol.

 

[SuSa]

I sometimes feel we underestimate ourselves against low tiers. For example, why isn't Ganon vs. Metaknight 100-0?
What can Ganon do about down air camping against Metaknight?
What can Ganon do against down air camping from DDD?
What can Ganon do against lazer camping from Falco? I lazer camp till you get in range, full hop, side b, start again, gg.

I feel people are honest, and the Ganon mains underrate themselves.

Either that, or my Ganon is ****ing amazing and can oftentimes win unwinnable matchups.

 

[CRASHiC]

What are his options though? I can' t think of anything the Metaknight can't see coming and recact to on comand.

 

[phi1ny3]

...ouch.

I wasn't expecting it to be that bad.

It's because a lot of things are so stupidly safe in that MU.
btw, there are definite character boards with extreme "bais", as seen in the difference from the Column to Row average lol. Luckily it seems that some (like MK, Lucario, etc.) everyone agrees with a relative amount.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I sometimes feel we underestimate ourselves against low tiers. For example, why isn't Ganon vs. Metaknight 100-0?
What can Ganon do about down air camping against Metaknight?
What can Ganon do against down air camping from DDD?
What can Ganon do against lazer camping from Falco? I lazer camp till you get in range, full hop, side b, start again, gg.

It's 95:5 incase we trip or he predicts everything and kills us with a 10% damage combo embarrassembarrass

 

[DMG]

There is not a single 100-0 in the game. If a matchup was 100-0, you should literally be able to unplug your controller AND STILL WIN. Even 95:5 might be pushing it.

Most matchups, even the severe/******** ones, are probably 85:15 or 90:10 Max, if only because of the slight role Player Error can have.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I feel people are honest, and the Ganon mains underrate themselves.

Either that, or my Ganon is ****ing amazing and can oftentimes win unwinnable matchups.

There is not a single 100-0 in the game. If a matchup was 100-0, you should literally be able to unplug your controller AND STILL WIN. Even 95:5 might be pushing it.

Most matchups, even the severe/******** ones, are probably 85:15 or 90:10 Max, if only because of the slight role Player Error can have.

You two don't know how bad Ganon is. Creating an argument with you is going to be pointless, so I rather not.

 

[CRASHiC]

There is not a single 100-0 in the game. If a matchup was 100-0, you should literally be able to unplug your controller AND STILL WIN. Even 95:5 might be pushing it.

Most matchups, even the severe/******** ones, are probably 85:15 or 90:10 Max, if only because of the slight role Player Error can have.

I notice that ICs versus Ganon is 100 to 0, so I guess Nana beats Ganon?

 

[ph00tbag]

Doesn't pulling out your controller cause the game to automatically pause?

 

[smashkng]

I notice that ICs versus Ganon is 100 to 0, so I guess Nana beats Ganon?

I still don't believe it's 100/0, because one time IC may trip ten times in a match allowing a Warlock Punch. I don't believe it as unwinnable, but maybe 99.99999/0.00001

 

[CRASHiC]

I still don't believe it's 100/0, because one time IC may trip ten times in a match allowing a Warlock Punch. I don't believe it as unwinnable, but maybe 99.99999/0.00001

that's avoidable. completely.

 

[smashkng]

that's avoidable. completely.

Or fsmash, or whatever. But it's NOT 100/0, such matchup doesn't exist because tripping can allow hits, and Ganon hits hard increasing the chance if 20 trips by IC in a match happens.

 

[CRASHiC]

Except ICs don't trip together
Only one trips, and the other can still hit you

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Except ICs don't trip together
Only one trips, and the other can still hit you

Or they both trip at the same time, allowing a DOUBLE KILL

 

[Mclena45]

Or they both trip at the same time, allowing a DOUBLE KILL

Chances of that are slim to none, and its not a double kill unless the main one dies too, but you could get out of the trip quicker.

 

[Rajam]

It's because a lot of things are so stupidly safe in that MU.
btw, there are definite character boards with extreme "bais", as seen in the difference from the Column to Row average lol. Luckily it seems that some (like MK, Lucario, etc.) everyone agrees with a relative amount.

Lol i always look at that. Ganons are the most pessimistic guys ever, by far (18 vs. 28 ?!?!? wtf)

 

[smashkng]

Lol i always look at that. Ganons are the most pessimistic guys ever, by far (18 vs. 28 ?!?!? wtf)

I agree. While Ganon IS the worst character in the game, some matchups are exaggerated slightly. They are rarely improving matchups originally believed being easier. Completely unwinnable matchups do NOT exist. I don't like that ratios and I can't believe why like everyone in Ganon boards hates their main (Ganondorf). Captain Falcon does suck, Link does suck and Samus does suck but their character boards are far more optimistic (not as much as Ganon, but they are having like a near impossible mission winning a large tourney).

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I agree. While Ganon IS the worst character in the game, some matchups are exaggerated slightly. They are rarely improving matchups originally believed being easier. Completely unwinnable matchups do NOT exist. I don't like that ratios and I can't believe why like everyone in Ganon boards hates their main (Ganondorf). Captain Falcon does suck, Link does suck and Samus does suck but their character boards are far more optimistic (not as much as Ganon, but they are having like a near impossible mission winning a large tourney).

If you don't play Ganon, you won't know how bad he is. Stop your ****ing posts about Ganon's match-ups.

 

[SuSa]

I play Ganon often, you guys underestimate him.

That said, he has no matchup better then 55:45 opponent

EDIT:
IC's, Sheik, and Olimar are basically his worst matchups.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I play Ganon often, you guys underestimate him.

That said, he has no matchup better then 55:45 opponent

I think you just contradicted yourself.

 

[SuSa]

By that, I meant not all of his matchups are 70:30 opponent. =P

 

[smashkng]

If you don't play Ganon, you won't know how bad he is. Stop your ****ing posts about Ganon's match-ups.

Ray Kalm, control a bit of respect please. Ganon is slow, has poor recovery (impossible to avoid gimps and get back without getting hit, I hate it), has poor Oos options (there are others who shares this problem though, like Yoshi), a fast jab (while faster than human reaction I think, it's still too slow so the problem isn't at all it only hits once, but being combined with poor grab range and slow tilts), priority (some moves have too low priority for its raw power), approach (in friendlies against a Falco or something similar always tell the friend to not camp at all) and being extremely chaingrabbable.

Why did Sakurai make a character that has that many amount of weaknesses. What he really needs is more knockback on Wizard Kick and up b electricity knockback (impossible to punish and uppercut, much faster with longer ranged up smash (or being the strongest up smash in the game when hit), faster jab and much longer grab range, being top 5 weight both with and without DI, a beast priority (which is supossed for his fighting style), better recovery, a bit less landing lag on his aerials, no chain grab shenanigans and a good approach.

This would make him the real raw power character. Sakurai, why did you nerf him? You should have improved him even more than in Melee instead. He shouldn't have anyone that his raw power can be compared or be stronger than Ganon.

 

[JOE!]

*looks at MU average chart*

Now...if yoshi has teh best Matchups bar-none of anyone in his current tier....

why is he still there? o_O

 

[o-Serin-o]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8529809&postcount=1

Average and update please.

Thank yees

 

[Kinzer]

Is-

Is that Wario-Sonic matchup for real?

I think I may have a heart-attack.

Is there any way I could convince you to not use that ratio?

 

[JOE!]

Is-

Is that Wario-Sonic matchup for real?

I think I may have a heart-attack.

Is there any way I could convince you to not use that ratio?

yeah.....the heck is that?

Sonic says 40/60...

Wario says 20/80 o_O

someone is bias here....

 

[Morrigan]

Someone hasn't read the OP.

Unless you're talkin about the disagreement, lol.

 

[Kinzer]

Unless you're talkin about the disagreement, lol.

*point point.*