Matchup Thread: WHAT TIME IS IT?

[Ussi]

fair > grab when landing behind DK to be safe but fair has a super high chance of shield poking DK's very poke-able shield.

FF fair leads to many many combos for Pikachu.

 

[daisho]

downb helps a lot in avoiding grabs, just time it well and space better

I play against a person whos idea of playing "smart" is to just do grabs and combos (plays as metaknight) from those grabs, no matter how well i space down b or how well i predict his movements I can never hit him with it.

Im not arguing against slow characters, but meta when he sees you going into the down b animation can hit you... my friend does it all the time.

Pikachu can easly just thunder jolt you or run in for a fair or nair. I really don't see how down b is remotely helpful for stopping pikachu from grabbing you.

 

[Ragnar0k]

Down b > grabs.

Daisho it sounds to me like you just suck at using down b effectively.

 

[daisho]

Down b > grabs.

Daisho it sounds to me like you just suck at using down b effectively.

When am i supposed to use it... when i cover my opponents eyes up for a couple of seconds...

You all say that down b is so good against grabs but nobody is saying why or what to do against someone who just sees it and jumps over.

Check out this video at 2:17 and 3:23

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubnzBcZChF4

 

[Ragnar0k]

Sorry I didn't mean to sound mean. If your opponent never approaches on the ground then it's obviously not a good idea to use it. Remember down b has awesome range so try to use it at max range and it should be fairly hard to punish. It's not very slow considering how much range it has.

copypasta'd from Big O's frame data thread:


Down B 19-20, 30-31, 46-47, 57-58, 73-74, 84-85, etc./add 29 frames to end of the last even numbered slap...(The pattern is add 11, add 16, then repeat. Each slap is separated by a comma. If you stopped after the second slap it would end on frame 60)

 

[Ripple]

When am i supposed to use it... when i cover my opponents eyes up for a couple of seconds...

You all say that down b is so good against grabs but nobody is saying why or what to do against someone who just sees it and jumps over.

Check out this video at 2:17 and 3:23

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubnzBcZChF4

use it when you are approaching them, not when they are approaching you.

i personally think that down b is not useful in the MK match up daisho

 

[Ragnar0k]

You ninja edited that video in after my post. Just from watching that video I can tell you why you hardly hit with down b. You're very predictable with it. You almost always use it after down tilt and your opponent realizes that and tornados after all of your down tilts. Also when you crouch he knows to approach you from the air because you're about to down tilt or down b.

Also, the first move you hit him with in that video was down b. lulz

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Hm... given the experience I have against Pikachu, I don't see why anyone would put this in DK's favor. For low percents Pikachu has his CG to rack up damage, for mid percents he has a great aerial juggle game that he can start off of a grab (which isn't that hard to get on DK given his ground speed and projectiles that would knock DK upwards), and for mid-high percents he can down-B through DK's up-B if he is too far to use the invincibility frames at the beginning for it.

I'd assume this matchup is at least 40-60 in Pikachu's favor. At worst its 45-55. But not 50-50.

 

[Azuraith]

Hm... given the experience I have against Pikachu, I don't see why anyone would put this in DK's favor. For low percents Pikachu has his CG to rack up damage, for mid percents he has a great aerial juggle game that he can start off of a grab (which isn't that hard to get on DK given his ground speed and projectiles that would knock DK upwards), and for mid-high percents he can down-B through DK's up-B if he is too far to use the invincibility frames at the beginning for it.

I'd assume this matchup is at least 40-60 in Pikachu's favor. At worst its 45-55. But not 50-50.

i agree with some things said there and it is true you have a lot of experience against pikachu.

All that being said Down B could still be used correctly to counter a CG, and well in the air pikachu would most likely win unless the DK player is very skilled and the pikachu is just average. and pikachus down B may be able to gimp dk's up B but only if used correctly the pikachu may suicide if hes bad or hell just screw up and dk will live

i wouldnt say its a 40-60 pikachu but more 45-55 or 50-50

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Pikachu's don't have to approach from the air. One of the most common approaches is at the beginning of a match pikachu Full hops a T-jolt. If you down-b, you get hit. So we either run with it as a shield, or we QAC toward you. Either way, DK is gonna get hit by something. Also, when we get close if you are shielding, we can just SH a fair to stab your shield and THEN start a chaingrab since DKs won't D-smash pikachu at low %s.

 

[Darknid]

I hate facing Pikachus. One thing though, they are extremely predictable.

 

[Drizzt6195]

Pikachu's don't have to approach from the air. One of the most common approaches is at the beginning of a match pikachu Full hops a T-jolt. If you down-b, you get hit. So we either run with it as a shield, or we QAC toward you. Either way, DK is gonna get hit by something. Also, when we get close if you are shielding, we can just SH a fair to stab your shield and THEN start a chaingrab since DKs won't D-smash pikachu at low %s.

Well i don't have the frame data but i think Dk can Utilt

 

[Ussi]

I hate facing Pikachus. One thing though, they are extremely predictable.

brawl = predictable but what the **** are you gonna do about it? Everyone is predictable in a slow game like this.

But that's subjective now isn't it?

Well i don't have the frame data but i think Dk can Utilt

What ESAM was saying was Pikachu was running with his tjolt so if you utilt, if you cancel out the tjolt, you're open for a grab. If you try to hit pikachu and he shields, the tjolt will hit you and Pikachu will grab you. (In theory, this requires Pikachu to keep up with his tjolt which he can do for a short while till it gets to far from Pika)

Then he said Pikachu can just fair, shield stab DK's poor shield, and then grab from there.

 

[Seton]

I think that it's a 50-50. I love battle agains't pikachu's. Is a good reason to practice the spacing. They have that CG, but i have to say in Dk's favor, that we can kill them at vety low percentages. 40-50% near the edge (fsmash or Dk punch (9 wind better)).
It's easy to smash then when the are using the QAC, it's really predictable and they don't cause hit lag.

 

[Ussi]

only silly Pikachus use QAC offensively a lot, most good pikas only QAC once or twice to see how you can deal with it to determine if it's worth QACing offensively. (Usually it isn't cause it is easy to punish with its near nonexistant hitstun)

So you can kill at at 50%? Pikachu can do the same when he gets thunder to send straight up to lead to another thunder. Yea doesn't happen that often. Pikachu is mobile enough to not get smashed/punched near the edge, course it can happen (mind games and all) But first... You need to pressure Pikachu to the edge.

 

[Seton]

So you can kill at at 50%? Pikachu can do the same when he gets thunder to send straight up to lead to another thunder

Pikachu cannot send u straight up until a 90% and u can easyly avoid it with DI.

 

[TheNix]

Pikachu cannot send u straight up until a 90% and u can easyly avoid it with DI.

To be fair, Pikachu isn't exactly going to be running into forward smashes or 9-winds at 50%, either.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

To be fair, Pikachu isn't exactly going to be running into forward smashes or 9-winds at 50%, either.

You were flirting alot. Plus the way you bagged cans got me bothered and hot.

BTW, i still think its 60-40 in pikas favor, maybe 55-45. Pikachu's speed is overwhelming and DKs attacks are still really telegraphed to somebody who knows the character.

 

[Seton]

To be fair, Pikachu isn't exactly going to be running into forward smashes or 9-winds at 50%, either.

Noone said that he had to run into then...

Midgames...they are easy to do with the 9 wind. Easy to smash a pikachu with dash pivot smash.

 

[Ussi]

If you are gonna keep doing that, Pikachu will just bait and punish a smash since its so laggy.

mind games are not included. How practical the tactic is determines how good a match up is. If the tactic needs more mind games than normal, it's not a viable tactic to use always. Sure you can get one off, but don't you think the pikachu will be wary of it the rest of the set? You can't land a move someone is expecting/watching out for. You'll just be punished for it.

 

[Seton]

If you are gonna keep doing that, Pikachu will just bait and punish a smash since its so laggy.

mind games are not included. How practical the tactic is determines how good a match up is. If the tactic needs more mind games than normal, it's not a viable tactic to use always. Sure you can get one off, but don't you think the pikachu will be wary of it the rest of the set? You can't land a move someone is expecting/watching out for. You'll just be punished for it.

Resonable argument. But u have to know that same happens in the oposite side. If a pikachu CGs me, i'll spacing too much next life, or if he thunders me, i'll DI in order to not be punished.

 

[Ussi]

But the CG is a viable tactic since Pikachu can fair > grab since fair has a very high chance to Shield stab as it is. Adding DK's weak shield makes it almost guaranteed to shield stab.

Not only that, you're forced to approach or at least to deal with tjolts. Pikachu has a projectile, while you don't. All you can do is PS/cancel it. But that still does its job of keeping you busy.

Also, about thunder, its DIable yes, but DK is a huge target. He is prone to get hit by thunder more no matter what.. but it's harder to get him in that position since it requires more % to knock him that high. But don't forget, Pikachu can chase your DI with a QAC > thunder, remember thunder is a mind game of Pikachu guessing where you are going and when you are ADing.

hell, grabs aren't hard to land. Shield grabs exists for a reason. DK's attacks extend his hurtbox too, a fsmash can be shield grabbed if Pikachu was up close to DK

 

[Ragnar0k]

If someone is trying not to get grabbed they aren't going to stand in their shield just to get fair grabbed.

 

[Ussi]

granted that's true, that's why i mentioned pressure from Pikachu's tjolt.

And if you spot dodge, Pikachu could just dsmash and hit you on your way out of the spot dodge.

Also, DK can just easily OoS or just SH bair if his back is facing Pikachu. But if Pikachu gets too close, fair's disjoint will strike DK first. But DK's bair is 3 frames faster than Pika's fair... But Pikachu has other aerials that are 3 frames if its that close..

so many situations... so many outcomes... just no way to get everything down to that little of a detail.

 

[The Yeti]

As a rather unbiased 3rd party, i give the advantage to pikachu 55-45. This is simply because of pika's combo ability and projectiles and the fact that DK can kill at outrageously low percentages if the pika slips up.

 

[Ussi]

well I played ultimodragon in a few friendlies, and we went around even in wins. (The brawls on FD, I don't know the timing of the CSS.... so that killed me there [player's fault, not pikachu's so I didn't include those])

So yea, I'm gonna go with 55-45 Pikachu. Basically even since DK has some nice rangey tilts and his bair will wreck Pikachu if Pikachu behind DK in the air. However, Pikachu's uair and fair **** DK as well and Pikachu's speedy tilts will ****. You basically got two polar opposites.

Shield stabbing won't happen too much if DK's shield is full too. Shield grab Pikachu if he lands in front. SH Bair won't hit Pikachu so you are wide open if he lands behind you with it. And I did survive DK's dsmash at 95%ish so 100% is a good rule of thumb to dsmash Pikachu. 105% is guaranteed.

Also my average life was around 130% while his was around 150%. The highest I ever lived was twice at 178% before being hit for my death (It was on BF and YI too lol) (Don't remember his highest i think it was 190%)

the moves ultimo killed me with the most were... uair, ftilt, and dsmash. (ftilt killed me around 135% at the edge) Many times I interrupted the DK punch with a ftilt or dtilt of my own.

Moves I killed him the most with were... usmash, thunder, and nair. I never really landed fsmash much since that was asking me to eat an AFRICA PUNCH.. One was enough for me ^^;

I got spiked twice in total, both side B. I got spiked with fair too at 160%ish BUT I teched it on the YI wall and survived. (which brought me to 178% lol) I never got gimped outside of me QA wrong and into the stage.

DK can Up B out of the CG IF the stage is tilting down thus leaving DK in the air.

DK's grounded Up B cancels out tjolt and does a pretty good job at messing with Pikachu. But like all tornadoes, it has a weakness to the top, so Pikachu CAN and will attack it from the top since it CAN'T leave the ground. Ultimo did a good job with it and got punished for it about 35% of the time. So its good to do.

Hmm ultimo can add anything if he wants.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

ussi, the CSS is harder to tech for smaller characters, much harder.

 

[Ussi]

Diffcultly means nothing in the highest levels of play. I am blaming my lack of tech skill for failing to do so.

 

[blakinola]

Yeah, Ussi pretty much summed it up there. Pika moves like butter against DK. I found platforms to kind of work to my advantage, but quickly found myself on the defensive with blocking pika's upairs. Damage is minimal but racks up quickly.

Upsmash, Dsmash to thunder is pretty nasty. I usually died off the top. Thunder's massive hitbox is too ****. Grounded Up-B ***** Pika's shield. Pika is hard to hit. Never baired unless he was in the air--and even then it was hard to land a hit. I relied on a lot of tilts to space effectively. I always lived till at least 130ish

Counter Yoshi's or Lylat against pika. Avoid FD unless you can handle the CG's. Lip of stage is SEXELLENT for CSS. Matchup 55-45 in pika's favor. Comes down to the better player.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

What is CSS?

 

[daisho]

cargo stage spike

 

[Ussi]

ESAM you 2nd DK and don't know that o_O?

Oh yea, Pikachu will survive a CSS at lower %'s (40-50%) on the likes of BF and SV thanks to his recovery but FD you're in hitstun too long and die before you can do anything. Those lips are sexellent for CSS xD

 

[Tujex]

LMFAO @ Sexellent!

*added to vocab*

Things to look out for when fighting Pika:
But yeah, I play a Pika main regularly and see this match-up as pretty easy for me....even when he's on his good days. Most of the time, Thunder can be seen from a mile away. I find more Pika's (good and bad) use this move more often than they don't...which makes it easy to see coming since basically it's like....

A. Your opponents off stage, Thunderguard him.
B. Your opponent in the air, Thunderchase him.

Because of DK's phail aerial movement...this move is hard to dodge unless you have an UpB ready to whip out save you (the aerial movement), but easy to see coming.

Nair is ****, Dair is ****, Uair combos like crazy, and I haven;t seen much use from Bair....but you never know. Pika's approach game is amazing, and his can cover ground retardedly fast by Quick Attacking forward and then into the ground which allows him to do any move immediately afterwards. Dair has two? hitboxes, one in air and then one when it hits ground right? DSmash has stupid range and will pull you in if you're not careful.

Thunderjolt is annoying and highly spammable. The fact that it hugs platforms can lead to some lame gimping and projectile spam since when used right, basic Ftilt/jab/Dtilt cancelling won't work like most other projectiles.

Fmash is stupid, and goes through most attacks with its disjointedness, but doesn't really becaome a threat until you're at high percentages.

But yeah, even after all that...I say it's 55-45 DK or 60-40.

Pika's to light, and can be killed very early. Gimps will be rare, but because of PIka small size and weight, a solid hit will kill him faster that MK swings his sword when you hold A. Super Armor ***** the little rat, and most of your moves outrange and prioritize Pika's. DK has something to counter most everything I've seen Pika's do...it's simply a matter of knowing what beats what and pulling it out. Letting the electric rat get his momentum going can and sometimes will mean loss of stock....but you have the guy beat out in everything except speed....that shouldn't happen, lol.

 

[Ussi]

everyone sees thunder coming. Pikachu ANNOUNCES IT. But people still get hit... why? Cause Thunder is a mind game half the time.. (The other half actually being a true combo) a mind game guessing which way the opponent is DI'ing. With DK, Pikachu is aloud more leeway in predicting since DK is a huge target. (I've said this.. idk how many times)

The times its a true combo is around 130%-[Whenever Usmash kills] (For DK) with usmash > thunder and higher %s making utilt > thunder a true combo (easier to land since its harder to see coming to DI in advance)

thunder guarding works at times.. you just need to time it that DK is forced to go into it. Another mind game cause DK could do it earlier.. So yea, thunder is a big mind game.

The only reason thunder is being considered is cause its Pikachu's safest and effective way to kill DK.

despite dying early, Pikachu is hard to hit. On a even skill scale, Pikachu is supposed to be playing an evasive style. Most times I got hit were only cause of good tilt spacing or a uair (fricken 5 frames....).

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Diffcultly means nothing in the highest levels of play. I am blaming my lack of tech skill for failing to do so.

Fiction is pretty much considered at one of the highest levels of play (he's like, 3rd-4th best in the west atm), he still can't tech it with small characters, the hit comes too quick so that the person has to predict when dk throws to tech it.

everyone sees thunder coming. Pikachu ANNOUNCES IT. But people still get hit... why? Cause Thunder is a mind game half the time.. (The other half actually being a true combo) a mind game guessing which way the opponent is DI'ing. With DK, Pikachu is aloud more leeway in predicting since DK is a huge target. (I've said this.. idk how many times)

The times its a true combo is around 130%-[Whenever Usmash kills] (For DK) with usmash > thunder and higher %s making utilt > thunder a true combo (easier to land since its harder to see coming to DI in advance)

thunder guarding works at times.. you just need to time it that DK is forced to go into it. Another mind game cause DK could do it earlier.. So yea, thunder is a big mind game.

The only reason thunder is being considered is cause its Pikachu's safest and effective way to kill DK.

despite dying early, Pikachu is hard to hit. On a even skill scale, Pikachu is supposed to be playing an evasive style. Most times I got hit were only cause of good tilt spacing or a uair (fricken 5 frames....).

same can be said for punches, in fact i announce like 30-40% of my punches and they still land. should we factor in punches too?

 

[Ussi]

DK doesn't have a leeway on his DK Punches, as Pikachu is a hard target to hit being small.

DK however is easy to hit since he is a big character.

True combo with side B however, exists. But if we go by setting up, its easier for Pikachu to get DK in thunder position. As Pikachu will most likely hit you before DK can side B. Also Pikachu has less post lag overall compared to DK.

Not only that, Pikachu has 3 ways to set up thunder, utilt (Around 150-160% depending on staleness), usmash (130%-death%), and uthrow (least effective but there.... utilt is way better)

But it doesn't stop there, Pikachu can set up a utilt with a fair. So yea, Pikachu has a much more easier time getting DK to thunder position.

 

[TheNix]

The great thing about the punch is the SA frames. Against Pikachu, we could just time it to plow through a jolt or something.

Also, the headbutt IS extremely slow, but good players wont just throw it out when you are likely to attack. I typically only use it when my opponent's shield has taken a hit, and then use it to punish shields or spot-dodges.

Anyway, I really don't like all this theory-crafting. I do agree that Pikachu has the advantage here, but it's not much. 45-55 is my opinion.

 

[Ussi]

well I'm speaking from experience from the battles I had with ultimo yesterday. Most of his punches, I avoided completely, and some of them I interrupted BEFORE the SA. I got hit by like one with a side B, and most side Bs, I never got hit with it while on the ground outside of my shield taking the hit. And I would punish according with a tilt.

But hey, other DKs might land them more often and other Pikachus might get hit by them easier. Maybe I'm just good at avoiding...

Either way, I'm only speaking of my perspective with ultimo. Its not always gonna be the same with everyone else.

 

[blakinola]

I think it's time to move on to the next character, imo.

EDIT: SPARTA POST COUNT

 

[crifer]

DK doesn't have a leeway on his DK Punches, as Pikachu is a hard target to hit being small.

DK however is easy to hit since he is a big character.

True combo with side B however, exists. But if we go by setting up, its easier for Pikachu to get DK in thunder position. As Pikachu will most likely hit you before DK can side B. Also Pikachu has less post lag overall compared to DK.

Not only that, Pikachu has 3 ways to set up thunder, utilt (Around 150-160% depending on staleness), usmash (130%-death%), and uthrow (least effective but there.... utilt is way better)

But it doesn't stop there, Pikachu can set up a utilt with a fair. So yea, Pikachu has a much more easier time getting DK to thunder position.

agreed, if DK want to cancel momentum with bair, we die of thunder...
I say 50:50, maybe 55:45 pika´s favor