Matchup Thread: WHAT TIME IS IT?

[Linguini]

i just picked up brawl again after 6 months and im having alot of trouble vs pikachu and zss,any tips?

 

[ook]

Linguiniiiiiiiiiiiiiii
welcome back, but I dunno about those matchups :/


But yeah, you can actually just run in and headbutt Lucas if he misses his upsmash (or you block it).
free sakurai combo!

 

[Endless Nightmares]

I think Lucas can avoid the infinite.

how? o.o same way he can get out of Marths?

 

[itsthebigfoot]

i just picked up brawl again after 6 months and im having alot of trouble vs pikachu and zss,any tips?

zamus is a problem matchup, you gotta be able to time your upb SA really well

basically bair a lot and abuse SA, this is one of the two matchups where you can't rely on your ground game

pikachu i have no idea, we don't have good pikachus out here

I think Lucas can avoid the infinite.

And watch out for Lucas Upsmash, with it's enormous lingering Hitbox that kills Dk very early

nah, if dk is quick enough lucas doesn't get far enough (so long as dk turns around after the cargo, it messes with the DI because you normally pop out right in the middle of dk)

and the usmash did not kill me in my match against oats, good SDI (you have a HUGE window) and the upb momentum brake should let you live till standard dk %, maybe if you get hit by the full force part of the attack, but i've only ever been hit by the lingering part up top, which doesn't ko well

 

[crifer]

ZSS: charge the punsh, dodge like against no other character...
pika: the pika boards are now discussing DK,
I think upB is good for stuoping his approach, use ftilt and bair, and sometimes try to spike him with dair...punsh is very important to punish, I think as DK u can punish Pika really good...
and yeah dsmash for GTFO!

 

[TheNix]

i just picked up brawl again after 6 months and im having alot of trouble vs pikachu and zss,any tips?

ZSS is tough. I pretty much religiously use bairs, the up+b, and the punch. Up tilts and uairs obviously also work depending on the situation. Do not think that you can just gimp ZSS, because it's not going to happen unless your opponent makes a mistake. She will just use the down+b and footstool you during it. I actually learned how to perfectly fair-spike her out of the tether, but that doesn't even work anymore, because my friend saves his second jump and just survives the spike, usually gimping me in the process.

 

[highandmightyjoe]

Zero Suit was my first main when Brawl came out, she definately has alot of good options to work with. I could do a write up on here, but it will probably have to wait till later. Should we just make her the next character we discuss?

 

[Chibi-Chan]

If you're having trouble with Lucas, counter pick the legendary Jungle Japes, then you can Jape his ***.. Honestly, I dont think he has any chance n this stage, AT ALL. If he falls into the water anywhere but the right end of the screen he is dead... Chances are he will pop out just left of the last plataform and attaempt to recover... Then you get something like a inmovable flying sandbage next to 2 death zones.. Feel free to point blank spike or bair and he will die, no questions asked... Unless you're too slow... The ceiling of the stage also makes it impossible for him to kill you with Upsmash , which isnt a worry anyway.. Since if he does his upsmash on a plataform its like a free bair ^^... His recovery again... Makes him viable to the japes stage spike, even if you miss it its dagerous for him, ouch.

Due to the plataform heights and stuff, PK fire will be a hell to land anywhere. Lucas is still very dangerous at close range in the center plataform, but if you have good spacing it shouldnt be hard to handle.... And I dont think he has anywhere ese to go if he actually wants to stand a chance.

In the side plataforms you could grab him, and try to get a ftilt or smash on the grab release. sadly, Dsmash is pretty useless here unless he is at 120% or something... Luckly he'll get to half of that at any given time here >>

THis is stage is just so good for DK, you can WOP at the deathwall to the left and easily recover, even if you fall, you can probably still recover o-o...

If he chooses to try and camp the center plataform, you can do the classic ledgedrop UpB nto grounded version to approach.... So, if theres any stage to counterpick, its this o-o

 

[Cyphus]

i think that all you people will be finding a slow trend this year....that bad levels like Japes and Mansion get banned more frequently. Although this isn't the SBR, and my opinions vastly differ from the collective consciousness there...people are getting exceeding tired of issues of camping...and overly open levels like these can be down right unfair/impossible for many characters.
Personally, i never considered those to be tourney-legit (despite attending a dozen: major and minor tournies in them).


off topic, i'm bummed out about COT4 results. No Dk rep. NONE. What do i see??? MK, Snake, MK, MK in top 4...THEN Lee's Lucario (my *****!) and NinjaLink's Diddy (good **** guys)
but regardless...al;sjfa;lsdfj

 

[highandmightyjoe]

I've had a feeling since they said a new rule list was coming out that DK would lose a lot of his best stages. I won't be surprised if Japes and Mansion are both banned, and personally I don't really like Brinstar a lot. I'm gonna start countering with pretty much just Pictochat and neutrals.

So, what character we gonna do?

 

[Cyphus]

fortunately, nobody has to listen to the SBR. Alot of people give the impression what they say is law..but its not!! People should only look at their suggested rules, and modify it how their specific community sees best for them, and hopefully change with time, evolving for what they see as the better greater good.
and for the record...mansion and japes both will be still considered fair Counterpicks in the new lists. (unfortunately, imo) But that wont stop people from banning them.

 

[highandmightyjoe]

I know, but people around here are really starting to not like Japes. Inui was pretty upset after CoT4 about Japes and he isn't the only one that feels that way. I don't see it staying very long up here.

 

[CBK]

I agree but I must state this

V
V
V
V
V
V

 

[Nokonoko]

CBK says, “404 error.”

You heard it here first, DK mains.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

I played a Lucas for hours today, of about my same skill... Results were not lways so awesome.

o-o as DK, you usually have very few options to avoid being juggled.. But when Lucas sends you to the air he can take it extra safe and Try to chase you with PK thunder.. Which you cannot DI out and if it hits you once, the other one is assured.... You can escape by using UpB, but most of the time there wont be a god place to land because of the height and he could follow up from the landing lag >.>

Also, he has a much easier time hitting his Ftilt and Fsmash than you... And they both have pretty good knockback.. So if you emss up on a rol... you will eat one of this.

Also on Battlefield, he can Dsmash on a plataform and really cant approach as your head sticks up and you'll be hit... Cant Bair that very well uness its on the ending lag.

Besides all of the above, DK does have the advantage in this matchup... Gimping is really a joke as far as difficulty... DK being one of 2 or 3 that could attempt to gimp a very high Pk thunder (top plataform height) with the Fair.

your Bair should beat anything if you do it fast enough... And on all instances, his Fsmash ^^
He is also a good target for a DK punch in both the air and ground since opportunities to hit come rather often.. Same for charging it.

One thing I noticed about approaching is.. You really cant... At mid range he can Pk Fire you, which you must bocl or dodge.. But he gets pushed back a bit to resest the spacing until he's cornered... You cam jump easily over the Fires which are easy to see coming, but you have no options from that position at all unless you have an Afrika Punch ready. Once you somehow close the distance with say... Roll the Pk fire, you can try to Dsmash immediately as he will probably try to roll out of the way (Fsmash tends to miss here) However, his jabs are perhaps his only move fast enough to catch you here before you can dsmash or whatever.. and those jabs are not fun.

Its not hrd to grab Lucas.. But im not familiar with any decent grab release combo DK can land on him, I dont even know how cargo release infinite works or anything... insight on that would help.


Overall... 60-40 in favor of DK

 

[Commander_Beef]

Hahaha, you are funny dude, that is bad logic.

Good logic.

 

[gantrain05]

seriously? if they ban japes im not playing brawl anymore, thats my all purpose CP stage for my peach and DK, if it gets banned im starting a riot >.>

 

[itsthebigfoot]

i'll update the thread by sunday, just had a lot of work lately

 

[CELTiiC]

Can someone help me out with the Sonic match-up, I'm having trouble playing against 'em.

 

[ook]

For Bowser, if you get caught in the flame breath, DI up and towards him. You can get a free headbutt if he doesn't cancel it fast enough. (which, some won't, because they think you're stuck in it).



though once you do it a couple times, he won't try the flame breath anymore :/ so make it count.

 

[TheHulk]

C'mon, I want a real discussion on plausible, annoying characters that are hard to beat. For example, Snake, Metaknight, and Olimar. Please forgive me if you guys have already discussed them. Last night, I was in a tournament match against this Metaknight. Twice, different person. However, they both understood how to gimp Donkey Kong safety. It was the new finding at least for me. They both went offedge and then drop down and did UP B not toward to the stage. Somewhat similar to how Snake was being gimped. I was stuck offedge from 15%.

 

[TheHulk]

SORRY FOR THE DOUBLE POSTINGS. I found out that you guys already have covered these characters. This thread is a mess. Sorry!

 

[Tujex]

I just uploaded a bunch of Bowser vids on Youtube like 5 minutes ago.

Bowser has a few moves to look out for.

Upsmash and Fsmash both have like 2-3 hitboxes over the duration of the move. Fsmash has two, Upsmash has 3 if I'm not mistaken, but it may just be 2 (one when he jumps up and one as he comes down).

Fair and SideB look similar when they come out, so be careful when shielding since SideB is a grab and comes out as fast as Fair...both have about the same animation.

UpB is annoying and comes out fast. May take you by surprise, but you can normally see it coming.

Upair *****, but is kinda slow and easiyl seen coming.

Ftilt has stupid reach and from what I've seen it does a good job of edgeguarding certain recoveries....

 

[blakinola]

even though booser has the adv against DK, booser has crazy ******** grab release mindgames.

Grounded fortress is his bread and butter, invincible from frames 1-5, hits on frame 6. Always knocks you high enough so you can't punish him for it. If you hit bowser's shield in any way and you're next to him, you'll get fortressed. Bowser survives pretty long...can't really gimp you. Down+B owns his ground approach, and you can wop with bair, just make sure not to get shieldgrabbed. Try and space so you don't get Klaw'd.

I'd say 55-45, dk's favor--read up vex kasrani's grab release guide on the booser boards to see the nastiness that can occur. patience wins your matchup. being too aggressive will own you.

 

[TheNix]

even though booser has the adv against DK, booser has crazy ******** grab release mindgames.
---

I'd say 55-45, dk's favor--read up vex kasrani's grab release guide on the booser boards to see the nastiness that can occur. patience wins your matchup. being too aggressive will own you.

He should only be able to do anything during an air release against DK (and only DK), and I severely doubt that he could force an air release on DK without grabbing us over an edge or something.

 

[Ussi]

He should only be able to do anything during an air release against DK (and only DK), and I severely doubt that he could force an air release on DK without grabbing us over an edge or something.

Well, Bowser has 2 frames before you can shield (1 frame + 1 frame before shield is up)

 

[TheNix]

Well, Bowser has 2 frames before you can shield (1 frame + 1 frame before shield is up)

I agree that, with extremely good prediction abilities, Bowser could hit DK with something after a grab release. I just wanted to point out that us DKs don't have to worry about the huge list of things Bowser can do to every other character in the game.

 

[CBK]

He can definately do that, he can either *** Ftilt or Forward B. Trust me I play Bowser just because he seemed kinda fun the stuff he can do is pretty damaging. And since he can be quite a heavy hitter this is where it gets hard to really really live longer than him since he can live almost as long as DK.

Flame breath is not as scary outside of battlefield, mainly for the reason if it's on the ground our DownB reaches as far if not longer using his flames to extend hitboxes. Gimps would be the way to go so that Bowser doesn't get a chance to catch up. Low toss spike works well since his recovery is predictable and I don't believe he has the SA or invincible frames in it like DK does.

 

[gantrain05]

He can definately do that, he can either *** Ftilt or Forward B. Trust me I play Bowser just because he seemed kinda fun the stuff he can do is pretty damaging. And since he can be quite a heavy hitter this is where it gets hard to really really live longer than him since he can live almost as long as DK.

Flame breath is not as scary outside of battlefield, mainly for the reason if it's on the ground our DownB reaches as far if not longer using his flames to extend hitboxes. Gimps would be the way to go so that Bowser doesn't get a chance to catch up. Low toss spike works well since his recovery is predictable and I don't believe he has the SA or invincible frames in it like DK does.

he does, bowser gets invincibility frames on the first 6 frames of his fortress, just fyi, so don't don't expect to get tons of gimps on him.

 

[Ussi]

he does, bowser gets invincibility frames on the first 6 frames of his fortress, just fyi, so don't don't expect to get tons of gimps on him.

its not hard to spike fortress. Other than that its just edge hogging.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

C'mon, I want a real discussion on plausible, annoying characters that are hard to beat. For example, Snake, Metaknight, and Olimar. Please forgive me if you guys have already discussed them. Last night, I was in a tournament match against this Metaknight. Twice, different person. However, they both understood how to gimp Donkey Kong safety. It was the new finding at least for me. They both went offedge and then drop down and did UP B not toward to the stage. Somewhat similar to how Snake was being gimped. I was stuck offedge from 15%.

we've done em all, and bowser is plausible

ok, basics on the matchup, bowser has grab release tricksies, but they only work on the air break, on the ground break, mash jab, because he has a 1 frame advantage, but hit jab comes out frame 5, and yours comes out frame 4, so they'll clank and you'll be neutral, if he doesn't jab you won anyway (since nothing else is as quick). DK is one of the few characters that has nothing to worry about from the grab releases (actually the only one, everyone else ground breaks too slow)

now, on the ground, bowser is hard, he can and will punish anything that is not dtilt, downb (even then risky), punch and sweetspotted fsmash. he will not want to approach, and has fire, so we will likely be approaching omst of the match.

Luckily for us, bowser has problems against the bair. major problems. Space your bairs well and he has no attack that beats it, and cannot punish through traditional means. unfortunately you cannot do this forever, as you'd run out of room, but remember that a couple well spaced bairs can mess with bowser.

also, on the ledge, a well spaced bowser is a pain in the ***, you basically have to guess when he's going to ftilt, since jump, roll, and attack can all be punished. luckily you can do the same thing.

6:4 dk, well spaced bairs are too good in this matchup

go easy on your upb though, if he shields it, he can punish with upb, kinda, sometimes it just clanks.

also, save your vertical ko moves, because as fat as he is, he's floaty (you barely edge him out on weight just because you live longer off the top, off the side he wins... kinda, you got the air brake). he'll survive a punch much later than he'll survive a usmash, so try to land that if he goes aerial (klawhop puts him at the right height).

Note: I always thought this matchup was even, but I always seemed to win in the end, I think it's just a scary advantage

and i'm calling this matchup from both ends, I play a lot of bowser (he'd be my secondary if he covered any of my bad matchups)

 

[daisho]

Dk can hit bowser with Usmash from the ground, correct? (when bowser is on the ground)

 

[Ussi]

ok, basics on the matchup, bowser has grab release tricksies, but they only work on the air break, on the ground break, mash jab, because he has a 1 frame advantage, but hit jab comes out frame 5, and yours comes out frame 4, so they'll clank and you'll be neutral, if he doesn't jab you won anyway (since nothing else is as quick). DK is one of the few characters that has nothing to worry about from the grab releases (actually the only one, everyone else ground breaks too slow)

I'm gonna say, don't be obvious, cause fortress will beat out DK's jab since it will be invincible then hit you after your jab. hell Bowser can just shield then grab again.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

meh, if he upb's it is that weak 4-5% hit at that distance, and when they've shielded i've rolled back safely.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

I think 60-40 DK. Bairs are so ridiculously easy to hit with and chain in this matchup. You can continuously short hop and double Bair and Bowser can punish it well beyond fire, and Bowser is tall and heavy enough to usually get hit by both Bairs. And DK outlives Bowser, which is one of his usual pros.

 

[CBK]

Look your right on the part about fortress having invincible but spiking it after those frames is easy or edge hoggin it. But bigfoot your wrong about nothing else to worry about. If you jab at his forward b he grabs you and you do like 4 to his 15 and it's more like 23 or 24% because of the grab release mash.

I still think it's a 6:4 DK because though we can gimp flamethrower is a damage racker as well as his very capable tilt kills and smash kills.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Look your right on the part about fortress having invincible but spiking it after those frames is easy or edge hoggin it. But bigfoot your wrong about nothing else to worry about. If you jab at his forward b he grabs you and you do like 4 to his 15 and it's more like 23 or 24% because of the grab release mash.

I still think it's a 6:4 DK because though we can gimp flamethrower is a damage racker as well as his very capable tilt kills and smash kills.

trust me on this, they've tried sideb, the jab comes out a bit before it if you're quick enough.

 

[MrEh]

Bowser boards are now discussing DK. Not much to say, but any input would be appreciated.

I think it's 40-60 in DK's favor.

 

[sasook]

Hello mainers of the better Ape in the game. The Link boards are discussing the matchup.

http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?pid=639435#p639435

Yes, we're at AiB, not SWF. Please come and comment, most Links think DK is a big easy target, with the matchup 50:50 or 55:45 Link's favor. I've argued against it with 70:30 DK's favor.

Your input is appreciated.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

cricket noises