- Matchup Rediscussions #1: read last post

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Canvas, you know Zelda can LK grab release Wario right? Just checking.

Sheik is better, overall, in this match-up, but Zelda is advantaged against an aggressive Wario. I agree with Sonic that if Sheik can get a lead and switch to Zelda, it makes it very difficult for Wario to gain back the lead. It is not impossible, but difficult.

If Wario is in the lead, just down B and stay on him.

I can agree with that I guess. Sheik probably has the easier time regaining momentum

 

[MrEh]

I feel that, when wario is at a disadvantaged and forced to approach

Wario aint' scared of Dins.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Wario aint' scared of Dins.

I never claimed that he was.

 

[Kataefi]

Din's is a no no in this matchup (which isn't a surprise). Here's some interesting things that are very situational:

- Dtilt won't land on him at all, so save it instead for when he gets to around 70-80% just before it doesn't pop him up. If you ever land it, it's a guaranteed free grab into a release into whatever (from trip or hitstun).
- If you do land dtilts in the match, a trip guarantees a sweetspotted buffered bair. You need to be relatively close though.

Spoiler

10situations >.<

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Din's is a no no in this matchup [/SPOILER]

Din's = free damage to a wario on a bike unless he's right on top of you or something.

it should be a no go because wario should realize this and not pop out his bike much, but if he doesn't, blast away.

 

[PhantomX]

Matchups are supposed to discuss good players, not people who spam the bike, or spam Zelda's up b offensively, for example.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

As far as I know, Wario's rarely even use the Bike as an offensive measure. They use it mostly for recovery.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

certainly, but it bears mentioning that Din's will beat out bike whenever wario uses it. It adds some damage to his recovery and limits one possible approach option. It's not game changing, but it certainly is worth mentioning without condecension.

 

[PhantomX]

I played Dark Musician... and I'm pretty sure he didn't hit me with a Din's Fire once, lol.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

I do little else other than camp with Bairs all day if I'm playing Zelda vs. Wario.

Similar to how the uphill Jigglypuff match up was approached in Melee.

 

[Mocha19]

Oh no!! Not this matchup again!! *runs and hides*

In all seriousness though, I've been playing the Wario mains here to examine the matchup since the last time we talked about it. I still think it's all about who can bait each other better and who has the better tricks. I still think it's slightly in Wario's favor because he has the speed advantage, even though I win the matchup here all of the time. There's just so much that Wario can do to change up his game!! He's crazy!! =P

 

[Kataefi]

Yeah I believe it's in his favour too >.< But I think only a slight one at that. She's great at just keeping him away from her... so with a lead she could easily hold her own against him.

I understand his camping, but her airspeed isn't that bad (it's actually great compared to the rest of the cast minus wario, yoshi, jiggs and a handful of others), couldn't she bait an airdodge and punish with nair...?

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

Yeah I believe it's in his favour too >.< But I think only a slight one at that. She's great at just keeping him away from her... so with a lead she could easily hold her own against him.

I understand his camping, but her airspeed isn't that bad (it's actually great compared to the rest of the cast minus wario, yoshi, jiggs and a handful of others), couldn't she bait an airdodge and punish with nair...?

Or bait an airdodge into the ground and punish with dtilt/dsmash, which is what I usually do. Get Wario grounded to win this one.

 

[DMG]

Or bait an airdodge into the ground and punish with dtilt/dsmash, which is what I usually do. Get Wario grounded to win this one.

You're only gonna hit him with that if he airdodges into the ground into Zelda. She isn't fast enough to run to catch up to him, stop, and Dtilt/Dsmash when he lands. She can't cover his options well enough to force him to airdodge into the ground that close to her. If she was Marth or Shiek that would be more plausible.

 

[MRTW113]

As far as I know, Wario's rarely even use the Bike as an offensive measure. They use it mostly for recovery.

When Wario pulls out his bike, he pops up a bit before be can bike jump, attack, etc, giving a good chance to spike.

Zelda should have the advantage being anti-air and all, but Wario can still juggle her like crazy (Uair). His insane DI doesn't help either.

 

[MrEh]

I'm taking all of my trolling here now. ^^

I actually posted the 25:75 ratio as a joke, to see if I could get a funny reaction out of it. I wanted people to get upset, and then I could post this picture:

No one got angry enough though. lol

MK vs. Zelda, 25:75? This is a new one for me. I haven't even heard any MKs themselves say this. This seems very unrealistic to me, unless there's something I don't know about.

30:70 would probably be a better ratio. I don't think it's any higher though.

I think Snake is 35:65.

That's fine too.

Falco and Diddy said, last time I checked, that it was 55:45 Zelda. That's basically an even match-up. You have to realize that these are old and the metagame has changed, so they might be inaccurate, but they were not posted up to deliberately mask Zelda's abilities.

I know this. I'm just saying that they need to be rediscussed. That's all.

DDD vs. Zelda should be listed as 60:40 on both boards. I invite you to go more in-depth about this.

Dedede still has bogus range and stupid strong moves. His grabs still do like 20% to Zelda. That's just what I think. *shrugs*

and you can't assume that in every instance where they are placed differently that the Zelda board is the one in the wrong.

I don't blame the Zelda boards in those instances. I usually blame the Pit boards.

I don't feel that Zelda is that bad against MK either. MK's strength is mostly off-stage work with gimps and super-wtf aerials. Other than that though, MK isn't too special on stage. Zelda can outspace him assuming one can do so with great proficiency

....

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

MK is special, just not toooooooooooo special. Snake on the ground, now that's special.

 

[Kataefi]

Okay it seems like there's plenty to discuss, so we'll put Wario on halt as move straight onto what's important.

Rediscussion matchup # 1: Meta Knight

 

[NinjaLink]

misspelled matchup. I can repost my zelda vs mk vids if needed.

 

[Kataefi]

Fixed, and yeah that would be good posting more matches of how to deal with him! The OP is also now updated, so if everyone can take a look that would be good.

Meta Knight is hard for the majority of characters in the game, what tools can Zelda use to get rid of him? I'll fetch the meta knights over now.

 

[MrEh]

Don't get gimped. lol

DM and NinjaLink know their stuff though.

 

[GreyFox86]

She's underused. The match-up should be like Pika vs Fox.

Meta is just too good.

 

[goodkid]

That won't work. Platforms benefit MK more than Zelda by far. You can try to run/teleport away but MK will catch you. You can try to camp behind the statues and I'll just jump over them and punish you.

It's not a great stage choice, and it's hardly a decent stage choice. If you're only focusing on 1 of the 3 parts that means that 2/3 times you'll not be on that part of the stage anyways.

Against MK either ditto him, use a secondary or stick to neutrals and play as smart and as safe as possible.

I may be wrong about Zelda doing well on Castle Siege. My only exp against MK on Castle Siege is online, but I've beaten about 6 out of 7 MKs on Aib ladder using Castle as my cp. Its a good stage, it seems that you guys are thinking theory.

Vid on Castle Siege: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwGyLjWJptw

Its online, so its not the best representation, but I think it shows Castle Siege's potential.

 

[MrEh]

t seems that you guys are thinking theory.

No, we're not thinking theory. The players who have been giving input are regular tournament goers and understand what works and what doesn't. DarkMusician is arguably the best Zelda in the nation. NinjaLink is one of the best players on the East Coast. If you think they're wrong about this, then LOL.

Also, we're talking about offline play. Matchups should be discussed in an offline setting, not online.

Its online, so its not the best representation, but I think it shows Castle Siege's potential.

It's wifi. lol

 

[sniperworm]

That won't work. Platforms benefit MK more than Zelda by far. You can try to run/teleport away but MK will catch you. You can try to camp behind the statues and I'll just jump over them and punish you.

Oh god, he's going over to the dark side, lol.

MK is a really tough fight. So far my most effective tactic has been to use DownB. Regardless though, remember to "weather the storm" while you're recovering.

No, we're not thinking theory. The players who have been giving input are regular tournament goers and understand what works and what doesn't. DarkMusician is arguably the best Zelda in the nation. NinjaLink is one of the best players on the East Coast. If you think they're wrong about this, then LOL.

Also, we're talking about offline play. Matchups should be discussed in an offline setting, not online.



It's wifi. lol

Easy Lex...

 

[Darkmusician]

I'm sorry SniperWorm. It slipped.

 

[MrEh]

I'm sorry SniperWorm. It slipped.

You're beyond saving.

So far my most effective tactic has been to use DownB.

I lol'ed.

 

[Darkmusician]

What am I like Anakin Skywalker? XD

 

[rathy Aro]

Mk's down smash comes out in 5 iirc. If you main sheik/zelda all sheik would probably be the most reasonable choice though its a lot of hard work.

 

[Dayzin]

Noob question, ummm what do you do if mk just overwhelms you with speed. It happen to me at my first tournament like a month ago. I have no experience against good snakes or mks.

 

[DarkThundah]

Noob question, ummm what do you do if mk just overwhelms you with speed. It happen to me at my first tournament like a month ago. I have no experience against good snakes or mks.

Yeah I hear you. I'm not a seasoned tourney goer myself but I tried my hand in one in CT a week ago. It was small (about 25 ppl of varying ability), but I pretty much *****, I even got some sheik DACUS kills and proceeded to 3 stocked the guy who was putting the tourney on. But that was until I got to Metaknight... where I was savagely 3 stocked.

It was one of those situations where, as I'm sure many new tourney players experience, I simply felt that I could do anything I switched to snake for my next match against him and I got him to 40% on his last stock before I was shuttle killed. Came in 3rd place, and my winnings equaled the cost of my entry fee so I cant complain.

My trouble consisted with MK/the player's ability to maneuver away from my atks, bate and punish, edge **** wash rinse repeat.

 

[Dayzin]

As a Zelda player, you need to have a good defensive game. Zelda cannot succeed w/out one. 4 MK try using more rolls/spotdodge, Zelda's are quick & a fast escape from MK's pressure. I'm assuming a barrage of tornado/fair/d-tilt/f-tilt amirite? Keep your distance, let MK approach. Space yourself w/ F-smash/d-tilt/jab. Up-smash usually beats out his glide-attack depending on the angle.

Have you tried Sheik @ all? Her swiftness is pretty comparable to MK & as a combo, they can take MK

Ty for the tips, On that day i was getting hit by everything. I will definetly be more prepared for him next. And i don't use shiek, since melee i've always stuck with zelda mainly to prove that she was a good character and didn't need shiek to win and at this point im just use to using her only.

 

[Kataefi]

Matchup Rediscussions Format

Alright! I was discussing with some of the frequent members on the board using the chat... I'm going to lock this thread and instead matchup rediscussions will be done in a similar style to that of the yoshis, lucarios and foxes.

I'll make a separate thread titled Zelda vs _____ and then get the opponent's board members to come and join in on the fun and talk about good matchup strategies against both characters involved! That way, I can inividually link these mini matchup threads to our main matchup thread.