- Matchup Rediscussions #1: read last post

[GreyFox86]

I ban Yoshi's Isl for the fact that the walls mess with our recovery.
There's just so many things wrong with YI that Zelda can't take in for account aside from the small walls.

But aside from that, Zamus can and has the ability to kick us out of range. If it's a race of range we come close with the help of Din's Fire. Weither it hits or misses kinda leads to our advantage. Given that your Stun Gun does go a ways uncharged. Once Din's is out you can either get hit and hope not to die from it at mid way damages or air dodge it and either land safe, cause we are far away to do anything, or get hit with our Dsmash/Usmash. Yes you can clash with Din's however, if we are close to you and your close to the ground, there is no way your getting out of our Usmash.

I honestly don't use Shiek enough to play against Zamus cause I feel that Zelda can take on Zamus and win. I have yet to LEGALLY lose to a Zamus main here. Which would and probably be my down fall.

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

I dont think it would be a good idea to use Din's against our side b.

Din's fire wont work against ZSS any other way but edgeguarding. We're fast enough that we can get close you and probably hurt you before the animation ends. if you try to do a backwards momentum din's we'll hit you while you are landing.

If you are using it to punish airdodges then using usmash, we could airdodge then down b to escape.

 

[goodkid]

ZSS players like to trap you w/ Down-B & they jump around a lot hoping for an aerial, so up-smash works well in this matchup.

 

[-Mars-]

Im just saying, be careful when you use those Bairs/Fairs OOS. If blocked you get a uair in your face. And who says ZSS doesnt have kill moves. We can save our back air or side b until we need it. lets not forget that we can edgeguard Zelda or punish her on the ledge if we miss you.

So can you explain how if Zelda "gets inside" (no pun intended for you dirty minds) she is able to get us? Remember that some of your aerials can be punished if used in up-close combat. what EXACTLY does she have/limit us with up-close that we cant stop by using our abilities up-close? most of her smashes are telegraphed on when they are gonna be used. not to mention dsmash and usmash is punishable by us, I dont remember about fsmash when it comes to up-close. She doesnt have many moves that cant be punished by our dtilt or 1 frame jab.

The only move that can kill ZSS at a relatively low % is usmash, everything else is average, cept her sweetspot Fair/Bair.

ZSS doesnt die as fast as you think, she has an extremely good DI method using her uair and down b for momentum cancelling. Making her look like a middle weight. Oh, and I also agree that yoshi's would probably be a good cp against ZSS for Zelda since there's less room to move. but ppl most likely cp frigate or jungle japes (which I always ban)

I actually feel that it would be better to use Shiek instead of Zelda. She's harder for ZSS.

One of the major reasons that ZSS beats Zelda is becuase of her side b, you will definitley need to use it A LOT.....so don't expect to kill with it as it will be severely decayed.

Zelda's dtilt is very lethal as a close up option.....leads into almost any move imaginable and has guaranteed kill setups out of it at higher percentages. Also comes out on frame 5.

Zelda can kill early with utilt, usmash, uair, bair, fair, dair....evan dsmash can kill early near the edges.

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

So are we done with this discussion?

 

[GreyFox86]

I believe so. I'm all good on 55:45/60:40 Zamus though I feel it really should be 55:45 against us.

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

w/e then. I'm still stand by 6/4 ZSS. Have a nice day.

EDIT: Anyone going to Brawl til u fall? wouldn't mind playing the matchup against a GOOD Zelda top prove it or w/e.

 

[Kataefi]

^ this would be a very good idea!

 

[Ochobobo]

What with all the recent discussion about Zelda and Sheik, and the idea of a combo getting their own tier placement, I began wondering how good they truly are together. So I put together this matchup chart comparing the two.

I got the info from Kataefi's chart, Sheik boards, and looked at other characters' matchup threads to see what they said about us.

Please keep in mind that the above chart is just a collection of theoretical numbers and shouldn't be taken as engraved-in-stone "Who is better"

It's really just a bunch of recommendations.

Use Zelda Against...​

According to this chart, and the people of these boards that came up with the ratios, Zelda has better matchups against the following people:

Captain Falcon (70/30)
Ice Climbers (65/35)
Jigglypuff (65/35)
King DeDeDe (60/40)
Kirby (60/40)
Bowser (60/40)
Samus (60/40)
Yoshi (60/40)
Diddy Kong (55/45)
R.O.B. (55/45)
Pikachu (55/45)
Sheik (55/45)
Donkey Kong (50/50)
Luigi (50/50)
Zelda (lol, ditto match)
Princess Peach (45/55)
Lucario (40/60)

Use Sheik Against...​

According to this chart, and the people of these boards that came up with the ratios, Sheik has better matchups against the following people:

Ganondorf (90/10)
Fox (80/20)
Wolf (65/35)
Wario (60/40)
Ike (60/40)
Lucas (60/40)
Ness (60/40)
Sonic (60/40)
Olimar (50/50)
Zero Suit Samus (50/50)
Mr. Game & Watch (40/60)
Marth (40/60)

Play Your Strengths Against...​

Both Zelda and Sheik have the exact same matchup ratio for these guys. Just play whoever you're better with.

Meta Knight (40/60)
Falco (55/45)
Toon Link (50/50)
Pit (50/50)

There are still several characters on the list with undetermined and questionable matchups. Either the Zelda or Sheik boards haven't gotten around to discussing it, or the other characters' boards haven't gotten around to it either.

So far the only bad matchups are Metaknight, Lucario, and Mr. Game & Watch, all 40/60 with their respective character(s). Peach is also 45/55 for Zelda, but that's really close to neutral, lol.

I highlighted Marth as Sheik's fight even though Zelda's ratio is exactly the same because he undoubtedly easier for Sheik. The only reason their ratios are the same is because they are not made with the other character in mind as a reference point.

Snake, and ZSS are still in dispute, since both Zelda and Sheik currently have the same ratios, but they are all very arguably much easier for Sheik. The Sheik/Snake matchup is currently being discussed on the Sheik boards. It should soon be finished.

I'll try to update this as often as I can when decisions are made.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

the sheik part seems mighty empty, but the chart is lovely looking Ocho

 

[Rawnie]

I've been lurking a lot of the character boards a while now, and now have come to the descion that I would like to contribute to to some of the character boards.

For starters, Ochoboo chart is reallly nice.

I'd just like to point out that some of Sheik's matchups are incorrect. Marth and Game & Watch are the only ones I see. Both of which are 40/60's

As for the Zelda/ZSS matchup:

In my past experiences, Zelda has some trouble approaching Zamus. Zamus can punish all of Zelda aerials is she misses. All Zamus has to do is get Zelda in the air. Zelda can't do very much once on this situation. All good Zamus players should try and capitalize on this. Even on the ground, if Zelda makes a mistake, she'll get punished.

Zelda of course has the stronger variety of moves, but they'll only get her so far.

Overall I'd say 45/55 or 40/60
I'm leaning more toward 45/55.

Overall, you're better off switching to Sheik.

 

[Kataefi]

Yeah that's my fault about the ZSS score... because my chart hasn't been updated yet I wanted ocho's to be exactly the same as mine ratio-wise so there wasn't any confusion.

I'll change ZSS very shortly though on my chart.

 

[Bandit]

I have to agree with SilentMarth that G&W and Marth have the advantage against Sheik. Ankoku seems to agree as he lists both match-ups as "-2" which I interpret as 40/60.

 

[Ochobobo]

Whoops sorry, GW and Marth were typos, copied them down wrong from their page lol. Fixed now.

And I'll change ZSS as soon as the current rediscussion ends and you guys agree on a ratio, lol

 

[Kataefi]

What I'll try and do is move your post ocho so that it becomes the second post of this thread so that you can edit it there accordingly. I'll make a reference on the first post that if they want to see Zelda/Sheik Matchups then they can go to this post.

Really nice chart btw! ^^

 

[Bandit]

I still say Sheik to use against Marth. I have an awful time getting inside a good Fair zoning Marth. Sheik seems to have the quickness to get in, get grabs and rack damage while having the capability of gimping Marth. Zelda's range sits just inside tipper range; if you hit his shield and push him back with Fsmash, he could be out of range and Fsmash tipper you. This has happened to me on more than one occassion.

 

[Ochobobo]

Ooh, thanks Kataefi!

I still say Sheik to use against Marth. I have an awful time getting inside a good Fair zoning Marth. Sheik seems to have the quickness to get in, get grabs and rack damage while having the capability of gimping Marth. Zelda's range sits just inside tipper range; if you hit his shield and push him back with Fsmash, he could be out of range and Fsmash tipper you. This has happened to me on more than one occassion.

Yeah I'm just going by what the current numbers are (that one I actually got from the Marth boards lol) Sheik boards should rediscuss that matchup soon...

 

[Kataefi]

Ok... so it's actually slightly harder than what I thought it would be... moving your post might be tricky. I'll speak to some of the other mods and get advice.

Lmao instead of moving your post and made a copy! I'll get this sorted, it may take some time. For now just continue to edit one of the charts and refer to that one ^^ I'll delete the other one now!

 

[Steel]

Zelda is definitely more susceptible to Marth's zoning than Sheik is, I don't even recommend switching to Zelda for the kill. You may end up taking way too much damage before you actually land a kill move.

Marth boards have Zelda listed as 6/4 just like Sheik but it may be slightly off. COULD be 65:35, but whatever. Point is Zelda is simply not as effective vs Marth as Sheik is.

 

[Ochobobo]

Just made a large update to the Sheik side, using information from Ankoku's thread in the Sheik boards. Marth is still 40/60 and it looks like Snake is 40/60 too, even though both could arguably be considered better matchups for Sheik.

I'm not sure what to do about that, lol.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i think sheik is better against snake than Zelda, i feel less trapped fighting him as Sheik than Zelda.

 

[Ochobobo]

Alright, I just updated the chart with Donkey Kong as 50/50 for Zelda since it seems we've reached that conclusion.

I also highlighted Marth as Sheik's fight even though Zelda has the exact same matchup ratio. Really the only reason they're the same is the two ratios are not made with the other in mind as a reference point. He's still easier for Sheik, lol.

I expect I'll have to do something similar for Snake as soon as his discussion is finished on the Sheik boards if he stays at 40/60. ZSS seems like she'll move down for Zelda though, so that should make it easier to organize this lol.

edit: Oh I'm guessin from the subject change we're done rediscussing ZSS. What was the final decision? Looks like 40/60

 

[DMG]

Can we do Wario next?

 

[Kataefi]

=( okay... but I can already see where this will go >.< But lets do it anyways!

ZSS is 60:40-55:45 her advantage we concluded. Put 60:40 just in case though so we're more prepared. We can always go back.

 

[Brinzy]

These match-ups are ridiculously tiresome. Just leave it at 6/4 ZSS so we can reduce the traffic.

 

[PhantomX]

=( okay... but I can already see where this will go >.< But lets do it anyways!

ZSS is 60:40-55:45 her advantage we concluded. Put 60:40 just in case though so we're more prepared. We can always go back.

"Zelda has advantage!" "No Wario has advantage!" "Ok, Zelda has less, but still advantage!" "No, WARIO has less, but still advantage!" "Evenish?" "Fine, whatever."

 

[DMG]

No, not evenish haha.

See Kataefi called this sh**. </3 PX.

 

[Kataefi]

"Zelda has advantage!" "No Wario has advantage!" "Ok, Zelda has less, but still advantage!" "No, WARIO has less, but still advantage!" "Evenish?" "Fine, whatever."

Very well put

So in other words, we should do this systematically! You guys go first.

 

[Bandit]

Are we seriously going to debate the numbers on this again?

New plan. Down B = Advantage Us

 

[PhantomX]

I still disagree with Sheik having advantage, I think it's even, but they're stubborn.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i need to fight a good Wario, if any are willing to do Wifi. lag cakes are free.

other than that i'll be reading along

 

[Canvasofgrey]

I dunno, I like going Sheik against Wario since grabbing Wario is easier with Sheik, and a jump release = guaranteed Tipper Usmash against Wario.

Then again, Zelda has it easier to prevent Wario air camping.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

My best friend mains wario and it's his best character and I have a high win ratio against him... not only that, but he's better than me. He doesn't play a big runaway game, but he rarely gets the chance too anyway since he's so horribly outranged/outprioritized. I definitely feel like this one is actually Zelda's advantage. Now it's not a huge advantage or even a large one, but I don't feel the least bit disadvantaged here and I question why we even should.

I never go sheik in this matchup. I can't kill wario with sheik very well, I can't get him off his bike near as easily and I'm much more prone to getting outprioritized. I just can't zone him like Zelda can.

 

[GodAtHand]

I used to play a great Wario fairly regularly. He could go toe to toe with Korean DJ and was his doubles partner.

When we fought he would win the set, but I had a few wins. I definitely feel like this is Zelda's slight advantage. Wario has to get close to do damage, and when he does damage Zelda has a chance to do a lot more...

 

[DMG]

Sheik does better than Zelda IMO. Aside from Grab release to Tipper Usmash, she also has an easier time hitting him.. She get's out prioritized on a lot of stuff, but she also has frame advantages on a lot of attacks, which is quite rare for Wario.

Sheik easily stops "aircamping" better than Zelda can ever hope for. Sheiks running speed combined with her Needles is easily better than what Zelda has.

But that's a different discussion in itself.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I feel that, when wario is at a disadvantaged and forced to approach, Zelda can just keep rejecting him... sheik's defensive options are not near as effective.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

I guess its a role reversal against Wario. Seems like Zelda has the priority to build damage on Wario, and Sheik can KO Wario with a fresh, jump release, Tipper Usmash.

 

[Bandit]

Canvas, you know Zelda can LK grab release Wario right? Just checking.

Sheik is better, overall, in this match-up, but Zelda is advantaged against an aggressive Wario. I agree with Sonic that if Sheik can get a lead and switch to Zelda, it makes it very difficult for Wario to gain back the lead. It is not impossible, but difficult.

If Wario is in the lead, just down B and stay on him.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

Yes, but Wario's DI is particularly good when sent toward the side. I rather Tipper Usmash since Wario's DI isn't as good coming down than it is recovering from the side.

If it comes down to it, then I rather just Zelda jump release, then Utilt or Usmash.

But the major factor is, is that Zelda's grab isn't as easy to land in compared to Sheik. Especially since Wario is hard to grab in the first place.

 

[Ochobobo]

Alrighty, just edited the chart giving the Zelda/ZSS match a 40/60, givin Sheik the clear relative advantage of 50/50.

Two updates over the span of one day, we're makin great progress. Keep it up, lolol