- Matchup Rediscussions #1: read last post

[DMG]

Wario? Wanna continue the discussion on him?

 

[Villi]

Wah Wah Wah. I got my nairs outspaced by Wario dairs. D: He jumped over me and hit my noodle.

 

[Kataefi]

Lol DMG I promise to update Wario soon but I want to wait for his rediscussion first in the matchup thread or whatever xD

Or you can propose some more stuff here though... this thread can be dedicated to rediscussions!

I believe you're right... but 45:55 max for me IMO. That's my opinion on it all reading it back. Would be great if you could fight a high level Zelda though! But this is all open to discussion!

Zelda can camp AS WELL albeit not as well. Wario's airspeed is exaggerated somewhat, he isn't that much faster than her, and yeah...

GO GO GO!!

 

[MrEh]

45-55 disadvantage minimum.

Probably 40-60, considering that Wario is a fat sexy jerk. ^^

 

[Kataefi]

Updated with PT. I played it safe with squirtle and ivysaur. Everyone was saying at least 55:45 her advantage but tried to remain conservative with squirtle as he can wreck her. Anywhere from 45:55 to 55:45 was being thrown out so I kept it dead even. Ivysaur's a given advantage... Ivy + fire = death basically =(

As for Charz, he's still up for debate. Me and adumbrodeus can discuss over PMs or in the matchup thread, but I enjoy a bit of matchup debate ^^ But erm yeah! I put 60:40 as this seems to be the general consensus except from a few others who are saying it could be his advantage.

I moved wario down to 45:55 his advantage to fulfil DMG's crazy wario fetish... though they have us down as 65:35 his advantage =O surely not???

Let's rediscuss someone... Zero Suit Samus? I'll call them over... 50:50 is questionable.

I'll start with a few things, and this is from a zelda perspective so it's horribly one-sided at the moment:

- she's tall enough for fair and bair punishments OoS
- she's ridiculously light so these attacks are even more effective
- Dtilt is plain effective against her ground game, especially when you space it against her jabs.

Discuss... ^^

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

I havent fought a Zelda in a while. but I can definitely say it is NOT even. ZSS has the advantage. I cant say the exact ratio but I do know it's in her favor. ZSS can punish her in the air really well. Zelda's side b and other camping methods don't work on her because she is able to close the gap on her quite fast and easily. ZSS can uair OOS any aerials she can do sometime regardless of spacing.

ZSS has really awesome DI and wont die from moves that easily. Edgeguarding Zelda is easy as well for her. our side b hinders her recovery pretty hard. and if she somehow manages to use up b we can come back to the stage just as fast and punish it. ZSS can punish rolls pretty well so I wouldn't depend on that.

 

[GreyFox86]

I would say its even 50:50 between Zamus and Zelda.
After all you put up guy, it only get repetitive and easy to see.
Of course given you have the speed but alot of your moves can be Spotdodged cause there's no lingering hitbox's on Zamus that large.
Any form of Electricity ruins Zamus, which we do have. (Usmash, Fsmash, LK, Jab)
Not to mention she's a light weight. A little less/more heavy than us.
We can grab out of the dash attack and Neutral A combo.
And on top of all else you carry a tether recovery.

On the other hand you have the speed which has been a problem for us really.(IMO)
You can fB for the kill before we can teleport out.
You have armor pieces on your side at the beginning of the match. (This is not to say that we can't grab them and use them against you)
Your grab range is farther than us I believe.
Then there is the Dsmash stun combo.


It really can go either way between the 2 of these girls. Just who ever gets that first kill, I think, gets the advantage.

 

[SinkingHigher]

To each his own.

To be fair, though, Yuri (though he played really well) didn't really know how to approach so he got punished a LOT, especially around the middle.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I haven't lost to ZSS with Zelda yet but, again, I'm a much better zelda than any ZSS user around me so that doesn't mean a lot.

but honestly ZSS outranges us with enough attacks that she can punish improper spacing on our part. Then again, she just can't beat us as far as KO ability, priority or effectiveness one zelda is in range.

Honestly, unless you let yourself keep getting hit by zamus's side+B, you shouldn't be getting beaten that frequently.

it's a close matchup, but it's one in which I really don't feel disadvantaged

 

[Brinzy]

I havent fought a Zelda in a while. but I can definitely say it is NOT even. ZSS has the advantage. I cant say the exact ratio but I do know it's in her favor. ZSS can punish her in the air really well. Zelda's side b and other camping methods don't work on her because she is able to close the gap on her quite fast and easily. ZSS can uair OOS any aerials she can do sometime regardless of spacing.

ZSS has really awesome DI and wont die from moves that easily. Edgeguarding Zelda is easy as well for her. our side b hinders her recovery pretty hard. and if she somehow manages to use up b we can come back to the stage just as fast and punish it. ZSS can punish rolls pretty well so I wouldn't depend on that.

First, try fighting a Zelda today.

What do you mean by "punish her in the air really well"? Zelda does not dog fight characters in the air.

Din's Fire is not that important for "camping." It's more important for reading ranged attacks and punishing with Din's.

Zelda should not be getting hit by an uair after she uses nair. Zelda should not be approaching with any other aerial often.

"ZSS has really awesome DI" is not only irrelevant because anyone can employ the same DI, but you're also dealing with the glass cannon of Brawl. ZSS can be KO'd under 100% by 4/5 of Zelda's aerials, utilt, and her smash attacks (depending on where ZSS is hit). Will ZSS die below 100% all the time? Probably not. Will she die below 100% at least one stock? I will not doubt it.

There should not be very many situations where ZSS is punishing anyone's rolls, unless they try to roll when she's right there.

 

[noradseven]

I play against and with Zelda alot, ZSS has the advantage sorry but zelda your too slow and ZSS can zone the **** out of you and their isn't really anything you can do about it. But the ZSS has to be campy the lighting kick can and will destroy near instantly.

However this match can be a disaster on stages such as yoshi's where the stage is small and zelda can stage camp with u-smash(can be beaten by well placed d-air or tie with down B).

Because of Zelda's slow fall rate ZSS also has lots of opportunities for air juggling, just like I said be careful to stay out of range of the lighting kick.

Zelda's best moves against ZSS.
F-smash (outranges our over-B unless over-B is tipped)
u-smash (duh)
nauru's love if for some reason we do lots of n-Bs (which you shouldn't be doing against zelda too much)
over-B still practical even though in a fight where you trade hits every time ZSS will win.
lighting kicks (they kill and are easy connects on ZSS)

Final note watch out for Zelda's over B, alot of zelda's like to if you will die from it trade hits with any of your attacks so you get hit by over B *IT EXPLOADS WHEN YOU HIT HER STOP BEING SURPRISED

if you get the chance ZSS players f-air into edgehog is one of the best ways to kill zelda this match is 6-4 in ZSS's favor, if not worse.

First, try fighting a Zelda today.

What do you mean by "punish her in the air really well"? Zelda does not dog fight characters in the air.

Din's Fire is not that important for "camping." It's more important for reading ranged attacks and punishing with Din's.

Zelda should not be getting hit by an uair after she uses nair. Zelda should not be approaching with any other aerial often.

"ZSS has really awesome DI" is not only irrelevant because anyone can employ the same DI, but you're also dealing with the glass cannon of Brawl. ZSS can be KO'd under 100% by 4/5 of Zelda's aerials, utilt, and her smash attacks (depending on where ZSS is hit). Will ZSS die below 100% all the time? Probably not. Will she die below 100% at least one stock? I will not doubt it.

There should not be very many situations where ZSS is punishing anyone's rolls, unless they try to roll when she's right there.

Haha you haven't fought ZSS, seriously you would know that ZSS combos you into the air, and your slow fall gives us time for anywhere between 3-5(alot) attempts to hit you, dependent upon damage and fastfall.

 

[RoyalBlood]

If Zelda is stupid keen on getting grounded ZSS can air slap you very well

If Zelda knows how to fight ZSS in the air then Samus will be sent flying ;3

 

[Brinzy]

Haha you haven't fought ZSS, seriously you would know that ZSS combos you into the air, and your slow fall gives us time for anywhere between 3-5(alot) attempts to hit you, dependent upon damage and fastfall.

Three to five times? I want to see you try to hit me with three to five aerials/specials as I'm falling. That's ridiculous. Two at the most, three if I include being sent from a grounded/SH attack and then getting hit by an uair. Four to five in any real situation? No.

"Haha you haven't fought ZSS" is a pretty bold thing to say. Of course she has low % combos. That's not really special. After what, 50%, do you have any guaranteed combos on Zelda in the air? Note that simply predicting DI/action and landing a hit =/= true combo.

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

It's not about who can do combos. it's about how one character limits the other from doing certain things. ZSS is extremely good at juggling people especially slow fallers. We can do things like bait airdodges then use our 4 frame uair to punish them. it doesnt matter who can do "combos" or not since they dont really exist in brawl. most moves can not be linked to others because ppl can airdodge and DI and all that. But ZSS makes it extremely hard to avoid her attacks when you are above her seeing as her uair comes out so fast and she can follow you to the ground. She can also punish any aerial move OOS with uair if used on her.

from what I've seen Zelda constantly uses smashes, dtilts, and SH bairs/fairs to space. If ZSS stays at mid-range (spacing) it's very hard for Zelda to get a hit in. We can stay at mid-range keeping zelda at bay (seeing as her dashing speed is slow and it can be hard to approach her when we uses lasers) until we see an opening in your attacks, that's when we go to close range and start assaulting you.

Like I said before, ZSS can juggle Zelda quite well. If at anytime Zelda is above ZSS or misses an attempted fair/bair we can come in with a uair faster than you can say "I missed."

up-close, dtilt is probably Zelda's best move against us since it comes out fast and can chain. She can punish ZSS' SH's with usmash if we were to attempt a SH bair near you, which we wont try to do much near her.

Zelda's smashes is all about us (the player) predicting them. We can punish them with spacing lasers or dash attack when predicted.

And lets not forget the pieces at the start. Zelda's B move as a reflector sucks because when predicted can be punished bad, so that wont really limit us much. If a ZSS uses the pieces RIGHT and somehow gets you offstage, we can throw a piece at you offstage and there's not much you can do about it. if you airdodge it just makes it harder for you to get back to the stage and easier for us to edgehog/punish you afterwards. if you dont airdodge, well, you die.

ZSS is NOT easy to edgehog. a good ZSS doesnt get gimped. so saying something like her recovery as a disadvantage is wrong.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I fail to see how ZSS thinks she has an advantage here.

she can't kill us near as quickly as we can kill her and, yes she can zone us better than other charcters, but she can't zone us well enough to make up for our much better kill potential.

if you aren't tippering side+Bs, then you probably aren't connecting with zelda too much unless she's stupidly approaching.

once we get a stock advantage, how do you plan on approaching us?

 

[Brinzy]

Well it's a good thing I never mentioned ZSS's recovery.

I'm not the one who brought up combos. That other guy did. I think that ZSS should have a few strings that can work together at low %s and don't involve Dsmash. Other than that, I don't ever see myself getting caught into any strings from ZSS unless I am just plain outwitted, which is my fault, not Zelda's.

Zelda should never try to jump at someone and hit their shield with any aerials except for short-hopped lightning kicks. If they're blocked, they're blocked and you've got a punishment. However, there's really nothing that's telling me that I have to get hit by ZSS's uair.

The only thing that really, really places ZSS at any form of an advantage to me is how she forces Zelda to approach and the manner that she does so. She has many good options that are quick and can keep Zelda out. Of course, I've never played a really good anything, so what can I say about these fights? I've lost to ZSS players, but I've never actually been unable to get to ZSS, nor have I been juggled or uair'd before I could say "I missed" (since I actually... you know, use lightning kicks when I'm in range or can't be punished for the lag).

The armor pieces are normal items to me. The stuff that you're saying could apply to Zelda - if Zelda uses her reflector right, she can cause ZSS to get hit by her own projectiles. Also, I've never been killed by armor pieces in the beginning. Also also, unless you actually kill off Zelda's double-jump and send her to an ungodly corner, she can make it back.

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

I fail to see how ZSS thinks she has an advantage here.

she can't kill us near as quickly as we can kill her and, yes she can zone us better than other charcters, but she can't zone us well enough to make up for our much better kill potential.

if you aren't tippering side+Bs, then you probably aren't connecting with zelda too much unless she's stupidly approaching.

once we get a stock advantage, how do you plan on approaching us?

She kills characters at like 130%, and that's when we aren't edgeguarding, which we CAN do to Zelda because of her recovery. The thing is there are a lot of chars that cant kill at things like 90%-100% But how do they win? they do things like not getting hit. while the heavier chars get hit more but they compensate by not dieing till high %'s. It all balances out.

We have more options then side b to space. im not saying the whole fight is just gonna be u trying to get pass us just spamming side b's. that would be a stupid thing to do on our part. one reason ZSS is my favorite character because we can punish some moves other's cant with our speed and aerials.

I'm not the one who brought up combos. That other guy did. I think that ZSS should have a few strings that can work together at low %s and don't involve Dsmash. Other than that, I don't ever see myself getting caught into any strings from ZSS unless I am just plain outwitted, which is my fault, not Zelda's.

Like I said before. matchups arent about who can do better "strings" on one another. It's about who gives the other char more limits. When I talk about juggling Zelda Im saying We one advantage not Because we can "combo" in the air.

When you say that if I (the player) may be able to punish your airdodge and how it would be your fault and not Zelda's, I understand that. But what Im saying is we have one advantage here because of ZELDA'S falling speed which makes it HARDER for you to avoid our fast uairs and EASIER for us to hit you with them. im not saying it's impossible for you to avoid us. im just saying it's harder. that's why I say our character has an advantage on that subject.

Zelda should never try to jump at someone and hit their shield with any aerials except for short-hopped lightning kicks. If they're blocked, they're blocked and you've got a punishment. However, there's really nothing that's telling me that I have to get hit by ZSS's uair.

Im not trying to say that "oh, we will always hit Zelda with it because she will ALWAYS come at us with it." im saying that when she DOES do it. it may be punishable by our uair since it does have afterlag. if you dont see a ZSS using uair OOS whenever there's an opening on you in the air, then they should try it. It's one of the things I really like her for.

The armor pieces are normal items to me. The stuff that you're saying could apply to Zelda - if Zelda uses her reflector right, she can cause ZSS to get hit by her own projectiles. Also, I've never been killed by armor pieces in the beginning. Also also, unless you actually kill off Zelda's double-jump and send her to an ungodly corner, she can make it back.

Well yes, maybe someone's Zelda CAN be good enough to accurately predict when the piece will be thrown. But we can simply just use our other moves and WAIT until you use reflector thinking we were gonna throw, then actually throw it. unlike other reflectors, Zelda's is like the only one that can really be punished (and I guess pit's side b).

I believe if the best ZSS with the items was to fight the best Zelda who can predict thrown armor pieces (lol) the ZSS would win the starting battle. because the truth is, most ZSS' dont use their pieces to their full potential.

 

[GreyFox86]

Kinda mentioned her recovery before. But whatever, your good SoR.

I honestly feel that this is even. Really what can Zamus kill us with on ground, air and specials...Lets take a look see

Zamus
Ground:Dsmash > anything (at high percentage)
Fsmash

Air: Fair (a little over 120%)
Uair
Bair (mid percentage)

Specials: forward B
down B (If you happen to hit us that is)

Zelda
Ground: Fsmash (mid percentage, depend on DI)
Dsmash
Usmash (little over 110%)
Utilt (at 100% little more/less depending on DI)

Air: LIGHTNING KICK!!!!! (kinda mentioned that Electric ruins S/Zamus)
Uair
Dair

Specials: forward B (which does out range by all means)
neutral B (if you are tethered)


That may have been irrelevant to some but this is from what I've seen cause I've played against Zamus all the time and I mostly win.

Only thing I've seen that Zamus has over us greatly is speed and its mostly something that we can handle just annoying as hell to contain.

 

[Brinzy]

When you say that if I (the player) may be able to punish your airdodge and how it would be your fault and not Zelda's, I understand that. But what Im saying is we have one advantage here because of ZELDA'S falling speed which makes it HARDER for you to avoid our fast uairs and EASIER for us to hit you with them. im not saying it's impossible for you to avoid us. im just saying it's harder. that's why I say our character has an advantage on that subject.

Fair enough.

Im not trying to say that "oh, we will always hit Zelda with it because she will ALWAYS come at us with it." im saying that when she DOES do it. it may be punishable by our uair since it does have afterlag. if you dont see a ZSS using uair OOS whenever there's an opening on you in the air, then they should try it. It's one of the things I really like her for.

Yeah, I get you. This is just something that ZSS can do. Gotcha.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Zelda's Ftilt kills too BTW... at least, it kills earlier than anything ZSS can use on the ground.

 

[Kataefi]

Just very randomly... about ftilt and mario

you know how when we discussed mario and they were saying his FSmash outranges our FSmash... and that the reason for his advantage is because of his superior spacing...

Well... our ftilt outranges his fsmash, surprisingly, it outspeeds, outranges and plain destroys his fsmash. I cannot grasp this properly in mind considering it's very notable that Ftilt has less range than her own fsmash.

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

Kinda mentioned her recovery before. But whatever, your good SoR.

I honestly feel that this is even. Really what can Zamus kill us with on ground, air and specials...Lets take a look see

Zamus
Ground:Dsmash > anything (at high percentage)
Fsmash

Air: Fair (a little over 120%)
Uair
Bair (mid percentage)

Specials: forward B
down B (If you happen to hit us that is)

Zelda
Ground: Fsmash (mid percentage, depend on DI)
Dsmash
Usmash (little over 110%)
Utilt (at 100% little more/less depending on DI)

Air: LIGHTNING KICK!!!!! (kinda mentioned that Electric ruins S/Zamus)
Uair
Dair

Specials: forward B (which does out range by all means)
neutral B (if you are tethered)

Response:

She kills characters at like 130%, and that's when we aren't edgeguarding, which we CAN do to Zelda because of her recovery. The thing is there are a lot of chars that cant kill at things like 90%-100% But how do they win? they do things like not getting hit [by those attacks]. while the heavier chars get hit more but they compensate by not dieing till high %'s. It all balances out.

That may have been irrelevant to some but this is from what I've seen cause I've played against Zamus all the time and I mostly win.

Good for you. Hope those ZSS' knew how to space properly and how to counter moves and airdodges well.

Only thing I've seen that Zamus has over us greatly is speed and its mostly something that we can handle just annoying as hell to contain.

ZSS also has spacing, she can keep Zelda at bay from mid-range (it's hard for Zelda to approach.) with our speed, lasers, or side b until we see an opening then we can jump on it.

Zelda's side b really wont work on ZSS, you'd be surprised on how fast she can come to you and punish you before the animation is even done.

 

[GreyFox86]

I'm only stating how many kill moves we have over you guy.

Also, it works both ways on the spacing and AD. You guys have a little better spacing cause of the forward B, which mind you can be very easy to see coming.

I'm not sure if our Nyaru's can overcome your forward B, but we get inside there's really not a whole lot you can do against us.

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

I'm only stating how many kill moves we have over you guy.

Also, it works both ways on the spacing and AD. You guys have a little better spacing cause of the forward B, which mind you can be very easy to see coming.

I'm not sure if our Nyaru's can overcome your forward B, but we get inside there's really not a whole lot you can do against us.

We dont NEED forward b. Everyone can get pass it if spammed. we(or I, dont know about everyone else) use things like lasers and constant movement to space when we are trying to keep our enemy at bay. I throw in a little forward b on the side for pressure.

And against Nyaru's were not gonna try and side b through it, were gonna RUN UP TO YOU and attack. We have an R button too you know...

 

[RoyalBlood]

Just very randomly... about ftilt and mario

you know how when we discussed mario and they were saying his FSmash outranges our FSmash... and that the reason for his advantage is because of his superior spacing...

Well... our ftilt outranges his fsmash, surprisingly, it outspeeds, outranges and plain destroys his fsmash. I cannot grasp this properly in mind considering it's very notable that Ftilt has less range than her own fsmash.

Which (Forward Tilt or Forward Smash) is faster?

If you say F-tilt outranges his F-smash it may mean that Mario's F-smash is actually faster than our F-smash so not necessarily that his has more range, rather it has more speed.

Also both F-smashes have tippers so maybe it has to do with priority?

You're the tester after all

 

[noradseven]

Response:






Good for you. Hope those ZSS' knew how to space properly and how to counter moves and airdodges well.



ZSS also has spacing, she can keep Zelda at bay from mid-range (it's hard for Zelda to approach.) with our speed, lasers, or side b until we see an opening then we can jump on it.

Zelda's side b really wont work on ZSS, you'd be surprised on how fast she can come to you and punish you before the animation is even done.

Ohh yeah running A does beat over-B assuming that they arn't spacing properly, aka moving backwards while doing over B forwards.

I think I mentioned before that yes the heel and other electric attacks are the worst, but ZSS has enough speed to stay out of range. I wasn't kidding when I said 3-5 times, thats how many chances ZSS gets, I play this match alot, and all I do is space with over B and d-tilt until you get hit then, rush down, trust me f-air gimps Zelda, she will die below 100%.

The electric kick is pretty easy to not get hit by as long as you know how it hits. Me and my friend(he mains zelda/jiggly) can almost never connect lighting kicks on each other.

 

[Brinzy]

Why does Zelda need to use Nayru's to combat armor pieces, again?

I think I mentioned before that yes the heel and other electric attacks are the worst, but ZSS has enough speed to stay out of range. I wasn't kidding when I said 3-5 times, thats how many chances ZSS gets, I play this match alot, and all I do is space with over B and d-tilt until you get hit then, rush down, trust me f-air gimps Zelda, she will die below 100%.

The electric kick is pretty easy to not get hit by as long as you know how it hits. Me and my friend(he mains zelda/jiggly) can almost never connect lighting kicks on each other.

Oh, so you're talking about you and your friend, and you think you can judge how this fight goes? "All I do is space with over B and d-tilt." Hello, simple prediction which leads to simple punishment. You can't put a cap on when a character will die. I can say I'll kill ZSS at 75% per stock because of how I land lightning kicks on her (which has been, in my experience, not hard at all because she has a frame similar to Zelda's, so it's about how you keep Zelda out).

Fair gimps Zelda? Hello, DI. Not getting gimped by fair at any damage. It needs to kill. Oh, and that's hitting someone 3-5 times, not getting 3-5 attempts, because you know, getting hit by Side B simply means I air control myself away from ZSS and land after your second attack, or your third if I do get hit.

You think you can avoid lightning kicks because you know how it hits? What the hell? I know how ZSS's moves hit, so this must mean it's pretty easy to not get hit!

That was ridiculous.

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

Im not gonna say what gimps who. We have to reach a line of what a character can do and what the PLAYER can do.

I think ZSS has the advantage because she limits/makes it harder for Zelda for things in these areas:

- Approaching - Zelda doesn't have the best approaches (a good ZSS doesn't spam side b just to get powershielded) so it's HARDER (not impossible) for her to get past our spacing. What can she do besides either dash attack, aerial, PS, or roll to approach?

- The air - like most other characters, ZSS dominates her in the air. Our uair out prios any aerials you have. Zelda has a slow fall which makes it EASIER for us to hit her. Im not gonna give some estimate of how many times/chances we can hit you in the air because it depends on the players. but it's still EASIER for us because of our fast aerials and that we can move with you in the air because of our versatile aerial speed.

- Edgeguarding - ZSS' side b (is a kill move) or other methods can really put a hamper on Zelda's recovery since it is very linear. It can be HARD for Zelda to recover because even if you somehow managed to get by out edgeguarding im pretty sure we would've made you airdodge which would have probably made you have to come in low letting us react accordingly. Even if that's not the case even if we miss hitting you through your side b, we can come back to the ledge/stage extremely fast (since we dont get "ledgelag" when we tether to the ledge) and punish you for when you teleport to the stage.

-Zoning - ZSS can get to Zelda extremely fast if she starts using Nyaru's. Her dashing speed is quick enough for her to PS her side b, then dash attack/uair even from far away. Making it useless as a camping/on-stage move, still could be useful in edgeguarding though.

-Countering - If Zelda misses an aerial attack (like say fair/bair OOS) we can punish it with a SH uair just as fast. ZSS can counter her smashes with lasers or grab when predicted (grab gets anyone out of ANY ATTACK) so ZSS can counter moves others can't, even with Zelda's spacing. so if you use a move the wrong way, we're coming for that *** right on the spot.

Feel free to disagree, I wanna hear your opinions.

Your turn.

I say 6/4 ZSS

P.S - What do you guys mean when you say electricity ***** ZSS?

 

[GreyFox86]

Electric effects tend to stop opponents in their tracks.

Z/Samus and Mario have it the worst, so anything electric against these two will be stopped pretty hard.

Moves like Zelda's Usmash, Fsmash, LK, Nair, and Dair will ruin them.

Falco, Wolf, Pikachu, Z/Samus, Olimar, Ganondorf, Ness, Lucas, all have a move or two that have Electric property.

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

What all the ZSS mains say here about spacing is somewhat true - it is pretty hard to get inside a good ZSS. Simply for that fact, I would give her the nod. However, it is worth noting that once inside (aka around Zelda Fsmash range) Zelda's options beat ZSS's options. Our Dtilts are equally fast, and Zelda's Dsmash is faster than both of them. Fsmash beats the rest of ZSS's ground options, and Usmash will catch ZSS if she tries to jump over. If she tries to jump away, stay close; follow with Nair to outprioritize everything (or FHUair if she jumps straight up) , or a well-spaced Fair (which is easier from this range) to kill. In fact, if you can predict the jump, sliding Usmash and possibly insta-dash attack will probably catch ZSS anyway.

All it takes to get into this range is one mistake. Even at high levels of play, mistakes are made, so although with perfect play ZSS can keep Zelda out, if ZSS misspaces/mistimes anything, Zelda's got a good chance to open up an electric can of whoop-***.

tl;dr One mistake and Zelda's in. Even so, 55-45 ZSS

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

I dont think I fully understand, so electric attacks are bad for us because of priority?

What all the ZSS mains say here about spacing is somewhat true - it is pretty hard to get inside a good ZSS. Simply for that fact, I would give her the nod. However, it is worth noting that once inside (aka around Zelda Fsmash range) Zelda's options beat ZSS's options. Our Dtilts are equally fast, and Zelda's Dsmash is faster than both of them. Fsmash beats the rest of ZSS's ground options, and Usmash will catch ZSS if she tries to jump over. If she tries to jump away, stay close; follow with Nair to outprioritize everything (or FHUair if she jumps straight up) , or a well-spaced Fair (which is easier from this range) to kill. In fact, if you can predict the jump, sliding Usmash and possibly insta-dash attack will probably catch ZSS anyway.

All it takes to get into this range is one mistake. Even at high levels of play, mistakes are made, so although with perfect play ZSS can keep Zelda out, if ZSS misspaces/mistimes anything, Zelda's got a good chance to open up an electric can of whoop-***.

tl;dr One mistake and Zelda's in. Even so, 55-45 ZSS

Yes, Zelda may have up-close priority over us but most of her attacks, including ALL her smashes, nair, and fair/bair even OOS are PUNISHABLE by us with our speed and other things when predicted, unlike other characters. which means that unlike other characters, when we predict an attack we CAN punish it. So it wouldnt be in Zelda's best interest to use her smash often unless she KNOWS it's gonna hit, which means you shouldnt just do it after every sidestep, after blocking , or for spacing. (because our spacing moves will punish that) Just because you have speed, doesnt mean it's not counter-able by us. We have speed too. except some of our moves can be hard to punish, unlike yours against us.

Against characters like that with attacks that go through everything, I tend to have a hit-n-run style. We can do things like stay around you at mid-range, then if you come in, it is POSSIBLE for us to predict the attack like dsmash or fsmash if we are around you by blocking then using our speed to counter or if something happens and it's getting too hot in there we can just RUN back. we dont have to "jump" out of there just to get usmashed

Against Zelda, ZSS shouldnt really try spamming SH bair because her usmash can stop it, I never use it that often for my style anyway so it doesnt really affect me. Zelda cant do things like Just use a smash attack whenever you feel like since if you miss or we block we can counter it on the spot. Because we LIMIT Zelda in all those aspects (in my previous post) I believe it's 6/4 ZSS. I dont think you really looked at the previous post I made. it showed many other points that gives us a good advantage besides just the spacing thing.

What makes this 6/4 and not something like 7/3 is because you guys have the single advantage of priority. This is the only thing that has been said on Zelda's part that has been proven and is legit. But that's only on ground, where we can move really fast (which means faster than her) and can counter her if she makes one wrong attack.

6/4 ZSS?

 

[-spAzn-]

Hmm interesting to say the least... Curious to see how Link and TL rank on this chart heh.

 

[cheesdog]

I disagree with the falco results. I beet the snot out of a friend who has started to main Zelda. The reflector completely negates the dins fire and, despite what is written on the first page, I can succesfully chain grab up to the 40-50% range. It could be the skill desparity between the two of us, but I would gladly match falco against anybody who uses zelda.

 

[Kataefi]

I beet the snot out of a friend who has started to main Zelda.

I think you found the root to your disagreement right there. Zelda can lightning kick falco from a chaingrab at those percents sadly...

DSmash is the absolute bane of him. Then again, he' so light (and punishable on a lot of his moves)... practically any of her moves will kill him early. She hardly needs to be desperate to do a comeback if she's a stock down either.

Lol she even has a better aerial game than him if she spaces, and punishes every ounce of his 2 recoveries. I'd consider wolf of the 3 spaces to be much harder.

 

[cheesdog]

Ah you are right, he has not reached that level of play with her and hasnt figured out the chain grab break. I wont tell him either ;-). Thanks for the correction. I am hoping to hit up my first tourney on the 22nd so maybe I will get a chance to play a decent zelda.

 

[sasook]

The ZSS Zelda fight feels to me as if ZSS lands more hits, but Zelda KOs easier. Like...hmm

It's kind of a like a mosquito. It'll attack you and attack you and attack you and it's hard to get, but once you do get it, it's doomed.

Similarly, ZSS can space and land hits on Zelda a ton, but if Zelda lands a hit, that ZSS is in trouble. Just my personal opinion.

 

[noradseven]

it is worth noting that once inside (aka around Zelda Fsmash range) Zelda's options beat ZSS's options.

Isn't that like every match with ZSS, you don't stay inside, unless you got the opponent shut down with some character specific mixup, because your pretty much guaranteed to lose.

As far as Zelda killing earlier, ZSS does much higher damage, now you may be think D-smash but I am thinking of about 4 or 5 different moves.

The f-air: the reason f-air does so well against you as said earlier is because if you know how the heel works you can use f-tilts weird hitbox shift to your advantage, because a not electric kick will only do ~3 damage when an f-tilt will do between 9-25 damage, and because of ZSS and Zelda's fall rate, you can space it so if they dodge both kicks, you come from below and get a u-air mixup before touching the ground. This move is approached from below after a launcher or if Zelda is above you for some reason ???, it can of course be countered by naru's love in the air(and baited and such forth blah blah blah), but then again this move is for a gimpy mix up (aka not to be spammed),gimpy because the direction it knocks Zelda is very bad for her.

Another interesting note you will find that Zelda's d-smash kills ZSS pretty late considering how light she is, due to reaction u-B.

On a note on naru's love you can punish over B with naru its pretty effective, however you can get baited by whiffed over Bs and at extreme range(perfect spacing for ZSS) both moves will whiff anyways, but giving ZSS frame advantage.

Also this match I believe can be affected by stages alot, such as yoshi's Island is a great counter pick choice for Zelda and makes the match quite difficult for ZSS, I mean whoops. I assumed the match to be on smash ville and based my opinions on that.

Im still going with 6.5:3.5 maybe 6:4 but this is a very much woops I messed up insta death match, but ZSS has quite a few of those, pikachu is in many ways the worst.

 

[GreyFox86]

I still think it would be 55:45 Zamus and only cause she has speed and range from initial attacks.

I dunno it maybe 60:40 Zamus but that's the highest I see it. She doesn't completely beat Zelda to that point, and yes I admit that Zamus does have things that stop us from either getting in or attacking where we want, but as mentioned before that once we get inside your taking either damage or knock-back.

I still feel that Yoshi's Island is one of our worst stages.

 

[Kataefi]

I see this as even when both are played perfectly IMO. Whilst ZSS does have speed, combos, moderately good kill moves etc... Zelda is powerful, and moderately fast at the range she fights at (shock, horror =O)

Bair/Fair OoS is a godsend as far as punishment goes. Nair OoS can build momentum and predict where she'll go. Some of ZSS' moves are punishable with the right spacing. I like to save USmash because ZSS tends to fall fast and its use as a damage racker on the ground isn't as useful. Din's won't ever be used hardly.

It's exactly like the harassing fly and spider situation. The fly will poke and build up damage with speed, agility etc etc etc... but eventually it'll be caught. Zelda will take more damage, but she needs to dish out less damage to put opponents in critical positions, especially ZSS for being tall, light and having quite a tall hurtbox in the air.

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

Im just saying, be careful when you use those Bairs/Fairs OOS. If blocked you get a uair in your face. And who says ZSS doesnt have kill moves. We can save our back air or side b until we need it. lets not forget that we can edgeguard Zelda or punish her on the ledge if we miss you.

So can you explain how if Zelda "gets inside" (no pun intended for you dirty minds) she is able to get us? Remember that some of your aerials can be punished if used in up-close combat. what EXACTLY does she have/limit us with up-close that we cant stop by using our abilities up-close? most of her smashes are telegraphed on when they are gonna be used. not to mention dsmash and usmash is punishable by us, I dont remember about fsmash when it comes to up-close. She doesnt have many moves that cant be punished by our dtilt or 1 frame jab.

The only move that can kill ZSS at a relatively low % is usmash, everything else is average, cept her sweetspot Fair/Bair.

ZSS doesnt die as fast as you think, she has an extremely good DI method using her uair and down b for momentum cancelling. Making her look like a middle weight. Oh, and I also agree that yoshi's would probably be a good cp against ZSS for Zelda since there's less room to move. but ppl most likely cp frigate or jungle japes (which I always ban)

I actually feel that it would be better to use Shiek instead of Zelda. She's harder for ZSS.