Matchup Rediscussion: Zelda vs Olimar

[Kataefi]

Matchup Rediscussion: Olimar
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Zelda vs Olimar


- What to know about this matchup...
​

• Olimar will be on the defence with pikmin spam and pivot grabs. He has a good camp game! Try to bait his grab up close and punish the cooldown with his lack of grab armour. Never directly attack his shield because he can always punish you with ranged grabs.
  

• Get pikmin off as quickly as possible! Jab, Dtilt, Nair, Bair, Fair, Dair, Nayru's and FW all get pikmin off Zelda. Yellow pikmin are best dealt with using Dtilt, Bair, Fair or Dair. Each pikmin latches on and does 2% damage, except for white and purple pikmin who do 6% per latch and hit respectively. Get whites off quickly!
  

• Go for the gimp. Save Dsmash if possible. Dtilt locks can put him in tricky positions when finished off with Dsmash. This is most effective the closer you are to the ledge. Try to lure him in these positions. He cannot tech Dsmash from the ledge, but good players may be able to from the centre of the stage. If he is in a bad recovery position go for the edgehog but always be cautious - his Up+B pikmin chain can stage spike, so abuse ledge invincibility frames where appropriate!
  

• Beware of his kill options! Look at the colour order of his pikmin. Purples are the heavy hitters. Purple Usmash will kill very early, as will purple Uthrow. Blue and white pikmin are suited to grabbing. White pikmin do lots of pummel damage! Reds and Yellows don't kill quite as well as purples, but have added hitstun and are generally weaker, giving Olimar chances to combo.
  

• Don't underestimate the whistle! Gimping Olimar is not automatic. He has tools to stay alive as much as possible. He can use his whistle armour to survive Zelda's spike or gimp attempts. If the player is an avid whistle user, try to alter the timing of your gimp attempts and bait it. Lingering moves can go through it also.
  

- Useful Information...
​

• Try tech chasing from Dtilt for an early kill. Olimar's tech options tend to be bad if the opponent reads him well. A Dtilt trip is all you need to begin a tech chasing game. Attempt to catch his roll direction with lightning kicks or further Dtilts for building up a good amount of damage.

• Based on frame data, jabbing Olimar's shield is somewhat safe from being grabbed. With -8 frame cooldown on Zelda's Jab, and Olimar's grab coming out frame 11, she can jab his shield somewhat safely. 11 - 8 = 3 frames for Zelda to pull out a move, her Dsmash coming out frame 4. Therefore, at the closest distance between Olimar, he has a 1 frame window to get the grab. He will need to be frame perfect in this situation whereas Zelda can buffer a move (Dsmash being the quickest option) after Jab everytime to help on her part. If she isn't at Olimar's closest grabbing distance however (as Jab has some range on shields), his grab will have to travel out, giving her added frames to throw a Dsmash or something quick completely dependant on the distance.
  

• Spotdodge outlasts the duration of his throw hitbox. But barely! It is possible to spotdodge the hitbox of his throw and go for a punish with something relatively quick.
  

 

[Dabuz]

don't have much experience in this matchup but i can say for sure that castle siege is an amazing CP for zelda, just camp under the platforms on the second part of castle siege..that is the one part where zelda actually has a decent chance...but regardless...this matchup is bad for zelda horribly, all olimar has to do is perfect shield approach into grab range and he wins, hes too small to get hit by sweetspots while grounded...he outcamps zelda, can get her into the air easily and kill her, zelda has no chance in this matchup for the most part

 

[KayLo!]

After playing Dotcom's Olimar a little less than a week ago.... this just isn't worth it. CP a different character. X.X

Not only is it hard, it's just really, really annoying too. I'd rather fight ten thousand Snakes than play against an Olimar, tbh.

He's small. He outcamps us by far. Zelda can't approach him. He kills ******** early.

I've also had an Olimar whistle through my spike and gimp me. -_- He's just... yeah. Don't do it.

I'll post a more positive writeup sometime soon, lol.

 

[Noa.]

Zelda doesn't really have much going for her in this matchup. Especially since we shield grab all of her moves.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Let's see. He has more disjointed hitboxes than us, he outcamps us, kills better, has a far superior grab game, he's too small to lightning kick... On the plus side, if you can get him offstage, edgehogging him is easy. The problem? Good luck getting a good Olimar offstage without a fight.

30:70 Olimar's favour IMO. Perhaps 35:65 at best.

 

[KayLo!]

On the plus side, if you can get him offstage, edgehogging him is easy.

Not exactly. Like mains of other crappy recovery characters, Olimars usually have excellent DI since it's pretty essential for them. Dsmash is your best bet for getting him into a bad recovery position, but landing dsmash on Olimar is going to be hard unless he makes a mistake at close range to you on the ground.

Even at stage level, Olimar has tricks to get back onto the stage. For one, his whistle stalls him a bit, and his tether gives him a boost, so he can up b over your head onto the stage itself if you're on the ledge. He can also throw purple pikmin at you, which will knock you off.

Don't get me wrong, you can edgehog him.... but it's not auto-guaranteed as soon as he's off the stage.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Well, the actual process isn't easy because, as you said, actually getting him off-stage is a very difficult task against a good Olimar, because you'll have a hard time getting near him, let alone hitting him. Oh, and if you don't time it right you can get stage-spiked. Still, if you CAN get him off-stage, he's easier to gimp than a good deal of characters.

But we still get borderline ***** by him either way, so it doesn't really matter.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

if it weren't for Zelda's Dsmash destroying the little guy, this matchup might be nigh unwinnable.

As it is, Zelda has zero approach options that are absolutely reliable and can't outcamp him in most situations. However, Olimar doesn't have it so easy that he can indefinately keep zelda off of him.

If we somehow DO get ahead in the match, Olimar doesn't really have good aproach options vs. us either.

At least he's lightweight... bad matchup though; press down+B if you didn't get a chance to counterpick.

 

[sasook]

Not exactly. Like mains of other crappy recovery characters, Olimars usually have excellent DI since it's pretty essential for them.

Don't get me wrong, you can edgehog him.... but it's not auto-guaranteed as soon as he's off the stage.

Thank you KLo, I approve of these statements. xD



Anyways, matchup wise, the camping has been stated. I wanna know, what do we do against an aggro Oli? Most of you are probably going lolwut at this point, because chances are you haven't seen an aggro Oli. But believe me when I say, they can be scary too.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Not exactly. Like mains of other crappy recovery characters, Olimars usually have excellent DI since it's pretty essential for them.

it's not a fair statement to say that Olimar inherits good DI because he needs it. True pros should have good DI no matter which charcter they are, and Olimar's recovery is still bad.

 

[gm jack]

it's not a fair statement to say that Olimar inherits good DI because he needs it. True pros should have good DI no matter which charcter they are, and Olimar's recovery is still bad.

However, the point is that they tailor their DI to their needs, so are rarely put in position as to be in a position where it can be exploited.

 

[KayLo!]

it's not a fair statement to say that Olimar inherits good DI because he needs it. True pros should have good DI no matter which charcter they are, and Olimar's recovery is still bad.

However, the point is that they tailor their DI to their needs, so are rarely put in position as to be in a position where it can be exploited.

Fair enough, Hedgedawg, but like gm jack said, that wasn't really the point of what I said. (I just mentioned it being character-specific because it's true: most of the insane DI I've seen has been from players who need it because their character doesn't have great recovery.)

The point is that Olimar's balls up b isn't auto-gimp. Even Zelda's dsmash can be DI'd so that it sends the opponent more vertically than horizontally -- usually by accident, though, lol -- but besides dsmash, all of her KO moves will have him recovering from up high anyway.

 

[-Mars-]

If you really want to go all Zelda in this matchup. Platform camp. Nair a lot. Dtilt into dsmash wrecks Oli up close.....it's just a pain in the *** to get there. I'm not totally convinced that this is one of those 20-80 type matchups seeing as how I have never seen the matchup played at a high level. I think someone with an extreme amount of patience might be able to deal with Oli.......*shrugs*. I dunno I would put it as a hard counter at the moment but we're all pretty much theorycrafting on this matchup because no one has seen this matchup at a high level.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

If you really want to go all Zelda in this matchup. Platform camp. Nair a lot. Dtilt into dsmash wrecks Oli up close.....it's just a pain in the *** to get there. I'm not totally convinced that this is one of those 20-80 type matchups seeing as how I have never seen the matchup played at a high level. I think someone with an extreme amount of patience might be able to deal with Oli.......*shrugs*. I dunno I would put it as a hard counter at the moment but we're all pretty much theorycrafting on this matchup because no one has seen this matchup at a high level.

probably because we all know it's bad enough to counterpick. Zelda mains commonly know how to play sheik, peach or both, and they are both much better options.

 

[Le_THieN]

Nayru's Love tends to be a pretty pivotal move for me in this match-up. The obvious thing to do is use Nayru's Love in order to reflect Pikmin Throw (I prefer to do this while in a retreating SH in order to maintain my spacing), but sometimes an approaching SH N-air is better if I need to shake the Pikmin while pressuring from the air at the same time. Either way, if I'm able to condition the Olimar player into grabbing or pivot grabbing as a reaction to some of my feint approaches, I will usually delay my attack, use my double jump to respace if it is necessary and fast-fall with Nayru's Love to disrupt Olimar's grabbing cool-down.

If Olimar uses N-air offensively or defensively, I will also spam the B-button in order to activate Nayru's Love in this case to cover my tracks and disrupt his attempt to follow up with an U-smash or aerial attack (since N-air > U-smash or any other move is not actually guaranteed).

If either of this scenarios occur while my back is toward the ledge, I will do a B-turn-around Nayru's Love to reverse positions with Olimar and the chance to possibly force him off the stage.

Even if I mistime this attack or if it gets read, the attack frames will come out in time and actually disrupt Olimar in the middle of the Pikmin retracting animation in his grab, more often than not.

Nayru's Love in close-quarters is pretty the only surprise mix-up option I have come up with over the last several months to somewhat contend with Olimar's superior mid-range pressure. At this point though, I'll take anything that is able to temporarily stop Olimar in his tracks and force him to repost his camp site elsewhere, since he is decidedly more vulnerable running around and retreating in the air and taking to the platforms than he would be if he were zoning from a stationary position.

 

[DanGR]

Nayru's Love tends to be a pretty pivotal move for me in this match-up. The obvious thing to do is use Nayru's Love in order to reflect Pikmin Throw (I prefer to do this while in a retreating SH in order to maintain my spacing), but sometimes an approaching SH N-air is better if I need to shake the Pikmin while pressuring from the air at the same time.

Using Nayru's Love as a ranged reflector will not work in this matchup. If the Olimar player zones Zelda any distance closer than about half of Battlefield, he'll have no trouble punishing it.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

nayru's is a good move.... to not abuse.

Nayru's has speed, duration and reflective properties on its side, but it has MASSIVE cooldown, so, while it may be a good tool in a particular matchup, it's only a good tool if you make sure to use it only when it's advantageous to do so and to be SURE not to overuse it. Once it gets predictable, it'll spell horror for you.

 

[Le_THieN]

LOL. I mean, we can play this game all day, but all I'm doing here is exploring different avenues some of her lesser-used moves might offer in this match-up. I'm neither arguing that is foolproof or that it can't be punished. Frankly, Zelda can play against Olimar perfectly and still lose by a considerably large margin; at that point, you're going to want to take as many tools as you have in your disposal and play the absolute best mix-up game that you are humanly capable of with Zelda's limited resources.

Plus, no one mentioned it, LOL.

 

[Kaffei]

This is one difficult match up for sure.
Everyone already said what I was going to say; he's small, hard to sweetspot LKs, & he out ranges/out camps Zelda.

All I would do is tech chase, or whatever the term is for punishing mistakes, & I don't really know how to do that effectively, lol.

 

[KayLo!]

All I would do is tech chase, or whatever the term is for punishing mistakes, & I don't really know how to do that effectively, lol.

Hehe, punishing mistakes is just called.... punishing mistakes.

Tech chasing is when someone misses a tech (i.e., falls on their back/front from a hit) and you predict what they'll do..... roll left/right, get up attack, normal get up, etc. Or I guess if they do tech, predicting that is tech chasing as well since teching is punishable too.

 

[Kaffei]

Hehe, punishing mistakes is just called.... punishing mistakes.

Tech chasing is when someone misses a tech (i.e., falls on their back/front from a hit) and you predict what they'll do..... roll left/right, get up attack, normal get up, etc. Or I guess if they do tech, predicting that is tech chasing as well since teching is punishable too.

Oh, I see.

You think it'd work well vs olimar?

 

[KayLo!]

You think it'd work well vs olimar?

What exactly do you mean by "it"?

Tech chasing works wonders vs. Olimar because his tech roll is short and slow. But Zelda doesn't have the tools to reliably set up tech chases (like characters such as Snake, DDD, and Pikachu do), so it's not really beneficial to the matchup.

As for punishing his mistakes in general, that's player-specific and not relevant to the matchup -- but as far as punishing goes, Zelda's extremely good at it if you're in range to do so. Her moves are just so **** powerful, lol.

 

[Kaffei]

What exactly do you mean by "it"?

Tech chasing works wonders vs. Olimar because his tech roll is short and slow. But Zelda doesn't have the tools to reliably set up tech chases (like characters such as Snake, DDD, and Pikachu do), so it's not really beneficial to the matchup.

As for punishing his mistakes in general, that's player-specific and not relevant to the matchup -- but as far as punishing goes, Zelda's extremely good at it if you're in range to do so. Her moves are just so **** powerful, lol.

Oh.. that makes sense. Thank you.
I have another question; should Zelda spend more time evading attacks from Olimar & look for opportunities to Punish, rather than going on the full offensive or is that a bad idea?

 

[Kataefi]

But Zelda doesn't have the tools to reliably set up tech chases

*coughdtiltnaircough*

haha! That's just me being finicky today

But yes it's pretty much concluded that olimar is AWFUL and that we really should rely on our alter ego ninja form to attempt this fight, which is a very nifty tool indeed.

I remember mocha bringing up the issue that this match is easier than what it at first appears to be... something about baiting the grab and punishing the cooldown - does Zelda even have any good baiting moves here?? ... I would imagine empty SHs could allow one to observe how olimar reacts when one approaches his shield... but aside from that I don't know anything else.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

all I can say about Olimar really is that it's incredibly hard to get in on him, so, once you get an opening, you have to keep him from regaining his feet as long as you can. Be very agressive once you start contact, just not stupidly so.

 

[Kaffei]

all I can say about Olimar really is that it's incredibly hard to get in on him, so, once you get an opening, you have to keep him from regaining his feet as long as you can. Be very agressive once you start contact, just not stupidly so.

Best offensive is best defensive? haha

 

[-Mars-]

Tech chasing works wonders vs. Olimar because his tech roll is short and slow. But Zelda doesn't have the tools to reliably set up tech chases (like characters such as Snake, DDD, and Pikachu do), so it's not really beneficial to the matchup.

Ryoko uses dtilt trip tech chase into a lightning kick. She has a tech chase it's just that nobody bothers to use it.

 

[KayLo!]

For most characters, though, staying out of the dtilt danger zone is pretty easy. Olimar being one of them. Combined with the fact that it doesn't always trip, that's why I didn't count it as "reliable."

 

[zeldspazz]

Cant jab lead into a guaranteed tech chase at certain percentages?

 

[Kataefi]

If you're a calculator, then yes, jab does lead into guaranteed things. Unfortunately, olimar is nice and small so he can SDI away very easily.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

If you're a calculator, then yes, jab does lead into guaranteed things. Unfortunately, olimar is nice and small so he can SDI away very easily.

because for some f***ing arbitrary reason, Zelda's Jab is much higher in brawl than in melee.

 

[AzNfinesse]

olimar NOMNOMs zelda. 'nuff said.

 

[Kataefi]

Need more strategies for this matchup guys - like how to deal with Olimar's camp game, what to actually do when he is offstage, how to bait his grab game and punish after etc etc...

I personally see Olimar on the same level as I see Snake... doable, but you must outplay and make smart choices.

 

[sasook]

Need more strategies for this matchup guys - like how to deal with Olimar's camp game, what to actually do when he is offstage, how to bait his grab game and punish after etc etc...

To add to this, what to do against an aggro Oli?

I finally haz video proof of aggro Oli, because no one believes it's possible to play him like that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNFn_zv2PHo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENsCWYCbT2c <--especially this one

^aggro Oli. Please don't dismiss it like every other time I've brought it up in any other matchup discussion, regardless of the board. lol

 

[Kaffei]

Need more strategies for this matchup guys - like how to deal with Olimar's camp game, what to actually do when he is offstage, how to bait his grab game and punish after etc etc...

I personally see Olimar on the same level as I see Snake... doable, but you must outplay and make smart choices.

This may sound really unintelligent, but you know how you can control the distance you travel on ground with FW? I "mindgame" with that.
Once I hit Olimar, I keep aggroing & don't really let him get back up.
That sounds really vague. -__-

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

olimar?

reliable strategies?

zero.



just keep trying until something works.

 

[KayLo!]

I really hate to sound pessimistic, Kata, but there isn't a strategy that works against Olimar. Everything Zelda can do to him relies on the Olimar player making a mistake or being baited.

He outcamps us, and we have zero solid approach options. Getting him in the air and disrupting his wall of spam should be your main priority, but again, Zelda doesn't have any way to do that without putting herself at a huge risk of getting grabbed/smashed.

 

[MrEh]

If you try to camp Olimar, he'll camp you twice as hard right back.

If you try to approach Olimar, you get pivot grabbed.

Did Olimar miss his pivot grab? Well then you get pivot grabbed anyway. And Olimar is still safe.


It sucks. Trust me on this.

 

[Brinzy]

I think we've established that already, slow troll.

 

[-Mars-]

It obviously nededed to be re-emphasized. MrEh knows his stuff when it comes to Zelda. He doesn't pull any punches. He basically is a breathing, in the flesh, compendium of Zelda knowledge and strategies.

He has done battle with the man they call Dark Musician. His word is law.