Matchup Rediscussion: Zelda vs Olimar

[Brinzy]

I think I may have just maimed my lungs laughing.

But yeah, I PM'd an Olimar about this match-up talking about a few things, and we've pretty much agreed that there's not really anything Zelda can do to him outside of finding player mistakes and being blessed enough to capitalize on them.

Well... Farore's does get Pikmin off of you... yeah.

 

[-Mars-]

I mm'ed a Olimar player at a tourny last saturday. Nair is actually great for keeping Pikmin off of you......I remember a certain color beat out nair but for all the others you can stay relatively unharmed.

I platform camped on BF and did drop through lightning kicks when I saw openings. I just forced him to have to do something other than being able to just camp me horizontally, Being above Oli isn't fun but it's a helluva lot better than having to deal with his linear camping game.

Tech chasng on Oli was surprisingly easier than I thought. Maybe it has to do with his roll animation or something?

This saturday i'll try to come up with some other stuff.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

a lot of zelda's attacks are electric, so yellow are often unharmed.

 

[KayLo!]

Tech chasng on Oli was surprisingly easier than I thought. Maybe it has to do with his roll animation or something?

As me and.... uh, someone else (forget who) discussed earlier in the thread, Olimar has horrible tech options. His tech roll is short and slow, and his get-up attack isn't good either.

If he misses a tech, that's great, but..... how, exactly, are you getting this to happen? Zelda's not exactly the queen of forcing missed techs.... she doesn't have Snake or DDD's dthrow, or even a move like Pika's dsmash that results in missed techs half the time.

I'm sort of questioning this Olimar if he was tech rolling any significant amount.

 

[-Mars-]

Dtilt. Lightning kicking his shield when he was on a platform. Question the Olimar all you want I never said he was great or anything. He was competent with Olimar though so it was difficult.

 

[Kataefi]

So the ratio of difficulty will be... *insert people's responses here*

Also Mars what's this platform camping I keep hearing about? I've not really understood it up until now but I've heard of it a couple of times.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

whatever ratio signifies:

winnable . . . but **** hard

 

[-Mars-]

So the ratio of difficulty will be... *insert people's responses here*

Also Mars what's this platform camping I keep hearing about? I've not really understood it up until now but I've heard of it a couple of times.

7-3 Olimar.

To be honest platform camping with Zelda isn't really a great option due to her having that enormous weakness beneath her. It's basically standing on a platform to avoid grabs and a characters linear camping game.

Works best with characters like Link(bombs, dair), Snake(nades, c4, fsmash), and MK(dair, nado) that are able to camp the platforms against characters like oli and icies making it harder for them to get chaingrabbed/grabbed at all.

For example, if you're a MK going against Icies.....if you want to have a better shot at avoiding a grab......stay on the platforms hopping around and dairing.

It actually leaves you more open for juggles and that sort of thing but when your up against an Olimar with Zelda its better than just getting grabbed the whole match.

Zelda's dtilt and Naryus hit beneath the platforms. I kinda just like hopping around on BF making them chase me instead of having to put up with the defensive walls.

Oh btw Wario is fantastic at this.

 

[Brinzy]

This match-up does not feel winnable to me.

At the very, very best, on a good Hyrulian day when evil decides to not rear its ugly head, 70:30 Olimar.

 

[-Mars-]

lol @ SoR.

I dunno.....on a small stage you may be able to have a chance. Just checked his frame data and his jab is frame 4.....other than that he has nothing that outspeeds dtilt. If you get him on a small stage and get inside of him you can wreck him. His grab is frame 11 by the way.

I also know that with Sheik she has a trick where she auto cancels nair right into rapid jabs and oli cant grab here due to him not having grab armor like everyone else. I'll have to test if Zelda repeatedly dtilting is punishable by Oli's grab.

Like I said show me a video of this matchup at a high level of play before we give this an 20-80 matchup ratio.

 

[MrEh]

I think we've established that already, slow troll.

Then the matchup discussion was a success.

It obviously nededed to be re-emphasized. MrEh knows his stuff when it comes to Zelda. He doesn't pull any punches. He basically is a breathing, in the flesh, compendium of Zelda knowledge and strategies.

He has done battle with the man they call Dark Musician. His word is law.

This man knows what he's talking about.

This match-up does not feel winnable to me.

That's because realistically, it isn't.

 

[KayLo!]

Dtilt. Lightning kicking his shield when he was on a platform. Question the Olimar all you want I never said he was great or anything. He was competent with Olimar though so it was difficult.

Dtilt setting up for tech chasing? That's sort of strange.

Dtilt trips (a.k.a. doesn't cause missed techs unless it's popping the opponent in the air), in which case you get a free hit before he even has a chance to roll, so you shouldn't be tech chasing him.

If he's popping up into the air, you also have a frame advantage to usmash/utilt (except in some cases where they can airdodge first, but then they won't be missing a tech), so you shouldn't be tech chasing then either.

As for pushing him off a platform, uair also works, although it's a bit slower. (General info, not directed towards you.)

I'll have to test if Zelda repeatedly dtilting is punishable by Oli's grab.

It might be. Zelda has 13 frames of cooldown on her dtilt; Olimar can grab on frame 11. Depends on how much shield stun he suffers.

However, it's not very likely that you can get close enough to dtilt anyway. Her dtilt has range, but he still has more.

 

[-Mars-]

At lower percentages tech chasing into a grab or a lightning kick is much more appealing to me because I keep my dsmash fresh to setup for easy gimps/kills on Olimar at higher percentages.

I figure i'm not going to be hitting him with lightning kicks much anyways so getting one whenever I can is better than decaying my dsmash.

 

[KayLo!]

It's still not tech chasing, though. With a trip, there's a +19 frame advantage, which is more than enough time to grab or do.... basically anything. It doesn't have to be a dsmash.

If you're tech chasing, you're just making it harder on yourself. @.@ Unless you're just using the wrong terminology.

 

[Brinzy]

I know what marsulas means and I've been putting it into practice. I have 50% -> death'd decent players quite a few times because it's not something that one generally expects. 90% of the time, someone who is SDIing out of the dtilt lock will roll back. That's when you get the lightning kick.

It's basically like the choice between Ice Beam and Blizzard. Basically, if I get a trip on someone at 60-70% and I predict they're gonna roll back, fairing them is amazing. Of course, you have to recognize their back roll, but if successful the payoff is grand. You can opt for pretty much whatever you want on a trip, yes. Zelda is just, in this case, fortunate enough to have two aerials that pack the most power behind them, making this tactic actually worth doing.

If you 1) are confident in your prediction, 2) are confident in your lightning kicking accuracy, and 3) have a tripped opponent that you can't kill otherwise (say... a Metaknight at 73% around the center of Battlefield), this is actually a really good and eye-opening option. Again though, if you have even the slightest doubt and you can't afford to mess this up, you can just fall back on whatever else you want.

 

[sniperworm]

Are we almost done here? I mean seriously, lets not waste too much time deciding how ridiculously bad this matchup is.

It might be. Zelda has 13 frames of cooldown on her dtilt; Olimar can grab on frame 11. Depends on how much shield stun he suffers.

lol, this doesn't sound likely to me. 13 frame cooldown + 5 frames for next Dtilt is not even close to a frame 11 shield grab. If MK can Dsmash you inbetween Dtilts, then Olimar can grab you...

At lower percentages tech chasing into a grab or a lightning kick is much more appealing to me because I keep my dsmash fresh to setup for easy gimps/kills on Olimar at higher percentages.

As Kaylo said, you can pretty much do whatever you want off of a trip. You may as well take guaranteed damage rather then trying to gamble with a kick at low percents. Besides going for a guaranteed followup that keeps Olimar close to you but it a bad situation (like a grab) is far better than kicking him and launching him away where he can procede to camp you again.

I know what marsulas means and I've been putting it into practice. I have 50% -> death'd decent players quite a few times because it's not something that one generally expects. 90% of the time, someone who is SDIing out of the dtilt lock will roll back. That's when you get the lightning kick.

It's basically like the choice between Ice Beam and Blizzard. Basically, if I get a trip on someone at 60-70% and I predict they're gonna roll back, fairing them is amazing. Of course, you have to recognize their back roll, but if successful the payoff is grand. You can opt for pretty much whatever you want on a trip, yes. Zelda is just, in this case, fortunate enough to have two aerials that pack the most power behind them, making this tactic actually worth doing.

If you 1) are confident in your prediction, 2) are confident in your lightning kicking accuracy, and 3) have a tripped opponent that you can't kill otherwise (say... a Metaknight at 73% around the center of Battlefield), this is actually a really good and eye-opening option. Again though, if you have even the slightest doubt and you can't afford to mess this up, you can just fall back on whatever else you want.

Tech chasing with kicks is a viable strategy when no other move will kill and you're desperate for a kill (aka against bad matchups like Olimar). However, he mentioned lower percents which to me implies non-killing percents.

On a side note, the pokemon trainer in me feels the need to point out that this is actually nothing like the choosing between Ice Beam and Blizzard (unless you have both on the same pokemon, which is silly), but I can see what you mean.

 

[Brinzy]

Well I guess I could've used a better example. I just assumed it would be like Ice Beam for more reliability vs. Blizzard for higher power and less reliability. I didn't take into the account the whole "same moveset" thing.

 

[MrEh]

Ice Beam is always better unless you have Hail up. But if you have Hail up, then your team is probably fail.


Hail Team = Fail Team

 

[-Mars-]

It's still not tech chasing, though. With a trip, there's a +19 frame advantage, which is more than enough time to grab or do.... basically anything. It doesn't have to be a dsmash.

If you're tech chasing, you're just making it harder on yourself. @.@ Unless you're just using the wrong terminology.

I don't know if your playing asparagus plants or what.......dtilt, naryus, and dsmash are the only moves that will consistently be fast enough to hit players with half a brain.

I don't see why this is so hard to understand.....at least SoR gets it. learned this from watching a vid of Ryoko a while back. here ill give an example:

I'm playing a Olimar on BF.

I dtilt.

he trips.

I predict the roll towards the edge.

I lightning kick his pikmin throwing ***.

He was rolling in the direction I kicked him.....so his DI will be bad for a bit.

He dies if he's at 65% or he is now in position for me to gimp him.



Now here is what you want me to do:

He is at 65%.

He trips.

Dsmash.

He DI's up and is in no danger of dying or being gimped.

My dsmash is now decayed.

 

[KayLo!]

No, you're not getting it.

If the opponent trips, you get a +19 frame advantage. GUARANTEED. This is legit frame data tested by myself and hotgarbage, not me pulling numbers out of my ***.

This is counted from when dtilt's cooldown lag is already over, btw. In case you don't understand what the phrase "frame advantage" means.

With 19 frames where the opponent is completely vulnerable and cannot do anything (they can't attack, stand up, roll, or anything yet), you can:

Fsmash
Dsmash (partially charged if you want to)
Dash-cancel usmash (depending on their height)
Dash-cancel grab (probably your best option)
Dtilt again
Ftilt (angled in respect to their height)
Jab (depending on their height)
Dash Attack

sniperworm already explained this situation perfectly. The only time you should be trying to predict rolls and time a sweetspotted LK on a small target like Olimar is if he's at high damage and you're desperate for a kill. That's the only time unless you really like to gamble, because the chances of predicting wrong or accidentally sourspotting (because again, Olimar is madd small) are too high in a horrible matchup like this one.

I'm also being nice and ignoring the fact that you were talking about low percentages anyway, which is the worst time to play games with a kill move when it won't even kill and you have an opportunity for guaranteed damage.

Unless it kills him, like sniperworm said, you're just kicking him away so he can reset his camp game. That is bad. Keeping him near you or at least throwing him in the air puts Zelda in a much better position. Grabbing is probably the best option off of a trip, but other moves work just as well depending on the opponent's percentage.

But hey, maybe you're the one playing vegetables who always roll in the same direction, letting you predict and LK them every time. But for those of us who play real players who vary their moves out of a trip, going for guaranteed damage > playing a guessing game that's super risky and not even worth it half the time.

 

[Kataefi]

So it's looking around 7:3 + or -... I saw a post from Fino saying it was 65:35 oli's favour >.> Is everyone comfortable with 7:3 then? It's pretty much a pseudo snake match except he's somewhat more gimpable and lighter.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

68:32

^_^

 

[sasook]

Still no word on what to do with an aggro Oli. ;-;

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

why would oli be aggro unless he were retarted?

 

[sasook]

^this is what I mean. Nothing against you personally Sonic, but I get put down every time I bring up aggro Oli, no matter what board it is. People are so set in stone that Oli has to camp to win, which, I know from personal experience, is not the case. Good aggro Olis can be really scary, and even moreso because no one expects it.

;-;

 

[Half-Split Soul]

I agree that aggro Olis can be scary as hell... He has strong aerials and wonderful spikes. The thing is, he doesn't have many ways to approach safely and he still has infinitely better camping and throwing game, so that's what he should capitalize on.

If you were to face an aggro Oli though, the best bet would just shield his Fair/Bair/whatever and punish it (probably with U-smash).

 

[sniperworm]

^this is what I mean. Nothing against you personally Sonic, but I get put down every time I bring up aggro Oli, no matter what board it is. People are so set in stone that Oli has to camp to win, which, I know from personal experience, is not the case. Good aggro Olis can be really scary, and even moreso because no one expects it.

;-;

To be honest, against Zelda, Olimar can basically do whatever he wants as long as he's smart about it.

I'll assume that aggro Oli is intelligent and not just ramming into your shield with aerials and other short-ranged attacks. That means that the only real difference between aggro and campy Olimar is that you have to wade through waves of Pikmin to get remotely near campy Olimar, where as aggro Olimar will go directly to this optimal attacking distance for smashes and throws and proceed from there.

Aggro Olimar is dangerous because he'll generally have more pikmin around him (because he's not lobbing them at you), he'll give you less opportunities to approach (because you'll be on the defensive and you won't have those gaps where they are using sideB or retreating), and he'll probably be significantly more comfortable with fighting at close range than a typical Olimar. Of course, camping Olimar benefits from free damage during camping and generally more advantageous positioning, so they both have their ups and downs.

So basically, we're screwed either way. Next matchup?

 

[Weruop]

^this is what I mean. Nothing against you personally Sonic, but I get put down every time I bring up aggro Oli, no matter what board it is. People are so set in stone that Oli has to camp to win, which, I know from personal experience, is not the case. Good aggro Olis can be really scary, and even moreso because no one expects it.

;-;

yeah but we are talking about matchups aka top level of gameplay. if an olimar is at top level he is going to camp and make zelda approach, because its much safer than trying to approach her himself.

 

[sasook]

Well when I say aggro Oli, I don't really mean aerials as much as I do grab-spam. Basically...a combination of the 2. Grab spam + mixed in aerials + fresh smashes for KOs = how did I just lose to an Oli who didn't camp?

But thanks for at least acknowledging what I said. =)

@Weruop - I realize that, but I just wanna know how to deal with all types of situations. That's all.

 

[-Mars-]

Zeldas tech chase performed by Ryoko at 2:07 in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsmEpRtmzXA&feature=related

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Zeldas tech chase performed by Ryoko at 2:07 in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsmEpRtmzXA&feature=related

unfortunately, Olimar is noticeably shorter than Luigi . . . can we even do that to him?

 

[Half-Split Soul]

I don't think it works with Fair but maybe with Bair...

Not sure about this though.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

if that's the case, we'd have to RAR our techchase . . . nice.

 

[Ochobobo]

Very nice marsulas. It looks as if you also might have room to move back and bair if they roll the other way.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Very nice marsulas. It looks as if you also might have room to move back and bair if they roll the other way.

but it looks like, unless you have the prediction skills of a god, you're not going to know which way that's going to be until you're already commited.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

but it looks like, unless you have the prediction skills of a god, you're not going to know which way that's going to be until you're already commited.

Spy on your opponents controller.

Also, Olimars roll is so slow and short that it isn't actually impossible to read.

 

[Brinzy]

That... and unless they have an idea as to what you're going to do, they're likely rolling back and/or preparing to DI for Dsmash.

Higher risk for a higher reward at certain %s. Not an impossible thing to pull off.

Also, fair works just as fine as bair. You just need to time it a bit differently, but it's not like they don't have a ton of vulnerable frames when rolling back.

 

[-Mars-]

Just giving you guys an example of what I was talking about.......whether you choose to use it or not is up to you. I honestly don't care, but this is one of those things that gives Zelda more options..................and that is never a bad thing.

90% of the time your opponent is going to roll away to SDI out of a possible tilt lock as SoR said especially if you haven't showed them this yet.

Anyways this has nothing to do with Olimar here so i'll stop spamming the thread.

 

[Kataefi]

It's useful information though

I've done the OP. It's very generic >.> Are there glaring problems?

 

[KayLo!]

@Mars: It's an option, but it's still a bad one. I don't think anyone was confused about what you were talking about once you clarified what you meant by "tech chasing."

@Kata: It looks fine to me.

EDIT: Two things. 1: you might want to add that blue pikmin have a powerful bthrow.

2: You said you can spotdodge his throw animation..... I think you meant his grab* animation.