Matchup Discussion - Week #26 : Sheik

[Teran]

Week #26 : Sheik

This week's discussion will be Sheik. Despite its rather unspectactular position on the tier list, it certainly has some tricks up its sleeve to make our life difficult. A crawl, speed, a tilt lock to name but a few things, this ninja is certainly no slouch. What tactics do we have to **** it hard enough to prove it's really a girl under there?

Discuss!

 

[Hawks go Caw]

Picture too good!

My friend plays Zelda a lot and it's such a relief when he accidentally transforms into Sheik because I can CG again and needles are no where near as annoying as Din's Fire. Also, no Nayru's Love to reflect lasers.

The biggest things to watch out for are the Ftilt lock and gimps. Needles are really good at stopping the phantasm, so get ready to Firebird in case you get hit.

 

[DEHF]

I think this match up is pretty even though sheik can tilt lock falco for a bit we still have the cg spike which racks up a lot of damage

the biggest problem we need to look out for is, like hawk said, gimps. sheik's fairs has just enough knockback to push us back and with her tether recover she will have no trouble with edgeguards

 

[Marcbri]

I think this match up is pretty even though sheik can tilt lock falco for a bit we still have the cg spike which racks up a lot of damage

the biggest problem we need to look out for is, like hawk said, gimps. sheik's fairs has just enough knockback to push us back and with her tether recover she will have no trouble with edgeguards

agreed , Falco vs Sheik is a pretty even match for these reasons.

I wanted to post something about facing Zelda/sheik at the same time, the best Sheik in Spain lives in my region so we can play often. his main tactic is: start with zelda and when he gets to high % he changes to Sheik. this can turn the match-up in zelda/sheik favour because he can't get chaingrabbed and he can still ftilt lock/gimp you.

the best moment for this is when Zelda kills falco and she is at high % ( not-cgable % is enough)

what do you think about this tactic against Falco? I won most of the games against this player, but I rather fight Zelda or Sheik alone than this smart combination.

 

[Afro Boy2000]

Yea 55:45 sheik's favor. Falco has the chain grab to spike but f-tilit lock and gimps put sheik at the slight advantage.

 

[DEHF]

agreed , Falco vs Sheik is a pretty even match for these reasons.

I wanted to post something about facing Zelda/sheik at the same time, the best Sheik in Spain lives in my region so we can play often. his main tactic is: start with zelda and when he gets to high % he changes to Sheik. this can turn the match-up in zelda/sheik favour because he can't get chaingrabbed and he can still ftilt lock/gimp you.

the best moment for this is when Zelda kills falco and she is at high % ( not-cgable % is enough)

what do you think about this tactic against Falco? I won most of the games against this player, but I rather fight Zelda or Sheik alone than this smart combination.

zelda can get cg just not as much as sheik can

that's a weird tactic though I would expect him to be sheik to get the damage and the zelda for the kill since sheik's main weakness is that she doesn't have many kill moves but can rack up damage very well

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I've seen all 3 combinations for a stock.
-Zelda -> Shiek
-Shiek all the way
-Shiek -> Zelda

Just looking at Shiek all the way, I agree with the even match-up. I still want to say falco has the advantage of 55:45, but I haven't played enough Shieks to really know for sure.

Anyway, as mentioned we have to deal with Shiek's combos and gimps. What does falco have? Spacing and our own method of damage racking.

I think Falco would play better than shiek at first if we space properly. Not a whole lot shiek can do to get past us. Our attacks outrange her and should she get too close, we can CG to good mid percents.

If we do get caught in a Ftilt lock at low percents I say DI down and shield/dodge/roll/jab, something to simply end the ftilts. At high percents DI up and away. Either way our DI can be read pretty easily and punished in someway. Those 2 methods just seem to end it fastest.

Apart from all that, it's just do what we normally do with Falco. Space the best we can, don't be predictable and everyting. If we never get caught in situations to be gimped the match is ours. Shiek has a harder time getting percent kills than we do.

 

[Zesty_Chicken]

I've played very few Shieks, so my experience is limited with her.

Many Shieks (the ones I've played) will just go for the tilt lock. I find it very easy to see coming, and as such, space with lazers. With a nice lazer -->RBPG, Shiek is pretty much neutralized. Continue on with a chaingrab and then a DACUS to even the field if the Shiek tilt locked you.

I know more advanced Shieks will have set ups to the tilt lock, so you really have to try and predict your opponent. If you do get F-tilted, DI and hope the Shiek screws up.

I find that a nice lazer game pretty much takes Shiek out of the game, because she really has no good long range options. Her needles are pretty easy to see coming on the ground, so a well timed reflector eliminates them. Unfortunately, a good player will usually turn into Zelda and just start playing long range. Her darn fireballs can be extremely effective, and Zelda has a reflector, albeit a pretty bad one.

I'm assuming that high level versatile players will just play the whole match with Zelda, as that is a much more favorable matchup.

I'd say the matchup is around 55:45 or 60:40.

 

[Nyjin]

Falco has the advantage, 60-40.

Lasers shut-down Shiek, well-timed Phantoms reset the entire field and all of Shiek's delicate spacing, and of course the CG.

Shiek has very few killing options, besides gimping. Her U-smash is strong but predictable and laggy afterwards and her D-smash is weak and not too much of a threat of DI'd correctly.

You say gimping and F-tilt lock are a problem? Not at all. If you camp she'll rarely get the chance to do the f-tilt lock (Plus the CG makes up the dmg) and if you're smart with your recovery you'll probably only get gimped maybe once the entire set, if at all.

 

[Marcbri]

remember that sheik can duck and crawl so lasers don't hit him , so it isn't easy to camp him.

needles can be really annoying at times, 18% fully charged and they stop the phantasm.

there aren't many really good sheiks so some people might have not played the match-up enough.

 

[stealth3654]

What Falco has on Sheik:
Lasers (stops Sheik's usual approaches)
CG
spike
reflector

What Sheik has on Falco:
Needles
tilt lock (we can tilt lock you till around 50% and finish off with a tipper up smash which does 30%)
gimping
Switch to Zelda for earlier kills

 

[fallenangemon0]

Sheik has the match-up 60-40.

Screw the locks. It's the gimps that really just ruin Falco here. Can't Shiek's crawl bypass lasers? Falco does so bad off stage in this match-up it's almost hilarious. Needles to block phantasm, then walk off to Fair or Bair for a kill.

Also, her chain tether makes it even more difficult, and means that Shiek will go to greater lengths to finish you off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX65n-h8JFk

Looking at that will give a rough Idea of how beautiful Sheik can gimp Falco, and I know that it may sound really Scrubish but sometimes Shiek's Up B can really just **** Falco up. It's really weird to explain. I think there are some clips of it in the vid.

 

[rathy Aro]

Sheik wins this matchup. Really it would be far in her favor if not for lasers imo. Lasers just bring it closer to even. You can start as zelda to avoid the cg all together and this is reasonable since after one ftilt on falco its pretty much death since even if they DI out of the lock properly ftilt is decayed to combo into usmash (guaranteed) for a kill no matter how good your DI is.

Gimping is very realistic.

I actually see sheik living longer than falco since usmash is pretty easy to hit with in this matchup and falco isn't the best killer.

I do want to point out that if falco really wants to camp sheik he can. just jump of stage and double jump 2 lasers into the crawling sheik. Not nearly as effective as his usual camping, but still works.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

*pokes shiek boards*

They have it marked as basically marked as 50-50 with a single point in there favor.

 

[Mini Mic]

Ha ha I like how you refer to her as an 'it' there Teran.

 

[Hyo]

I'd say just judging from the videos of Sheik (Sheik people, not Shiek),
that she is the gimp-master extraordinaire. The tether recover coupled with attacks that knock Falco just out of range mean that Falco's likely to get gimped 3 times in a match.

Falco:

Laser
Sheik's response: crawl

Phantasm
Sheik's response: needles

CG
Sheik's response: none

Dair
Response: Sidestep grabs, shielding.

It's not what Sheik has over Falco that makes her better, it's that she has a response to everything he can do. Lasers and phantasm in general are really a pain, and crawling as well as needles answer both of those adequately. Falco gets gimped too much, Sheik is too good at gimping.

That said, Falco can hold his own in CQC and is actually better at killing (surprisingly) than Sheik. The CG and spike work well, but if Sheik goes Zelda, we lose that easy kill.

55:45 Sheik all the way
6:4 Zelda-Sheik combo

 

[psike]

I really don't think the projectiles are too much of a factor in this matchup, except for a single regard: if Falco can hit Sheik during a distant horizontal recovery, it stops her momentum and can easily make for a gimp. The trouble is that this method is really the only gimp advantage Falco has on a smart Sheik. Sure he still has the dair spike, but any smart Sheik will see this coming and punish it with a vanish (unless you are very sneaky/quick) As far as needles, these will probably only be used on occasion against Falco, when he is offstage or using phantasm or his AAA flurry thing.

It can also be added that Falco's chaingrab and Sheik's ftilt lock are almost equal in different respects, as each builds up a similar amount of damage and can lead into decent finishers.

On the ground, Falco's fsmash definitely has a range and speed advantage over many things that Sheik can dish out, unless Sheik can predict it and get a chain tipper in before the attack completes. This is not something to expect, though, as most Sheiks will not choose this route and would rather just dodge and then aerial punish.

Aerially, Sheik's bair keeps Falco in line, and if she sees that you aren't dairing, she can even get in quick uairs for a juggle or two.

The main hindrance for Falco will be once he is offstage. Her fair will have no problem keeping Falco under the stage, from which his only recovery option is his UpB. Unfortunately, this is ***** by the chain dangle from on stage. In addition, offstage Sheik can hinder this with a quick tether recovery or a slightly faster vanish if she is on the inside.

Overall, Falco will have the easier kill moves with a quick Bair, Fsmash, or maybe Dsmash, but Sheik will get the easier gimps and be able to control the speed of the match. She also has the fallback option of turning to Zelda to avoid the CG, get the kill, and generally improve survival times - provided the transform is done safely.

I'd call it even for the hell of it, but if there is an advantage it will go to Sheik for her gimps on Falco.

 

[N3XUS]

I play against a pretty good sheik regularly, and I just can't understand why anyone would consider the match up 50:50. I could really use some help on this match up.

A smart sheik can **** a falco something serious.

Sheik is faster than falco
her longs legs give her more range than falco, all projectiles aside.
she crawls under laser
Her speed allows her to combo better than falco
Ftilt -> Usmash, falco now has one less stock than before
Sheik can Nair gimp, Fair gimp, needle gimp.

The only way I'm able to win is when I take my time and try to predict what shiek is gonna do next, and try to control the center of the stage.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

The only way I'm able to win is when I take my time and try to predict what shiek is gonna do next, and try to control the center of the stage.

May I note for other people that this is a hard thing to do for Falco, seeing as he uses lasers for long range and using phantasm to get away already makes you lose controll.

This is a hard match

 

[Notra]

the main person i brawl w/ is a shiek the thing that seems to happen is neither of them have good kill moves. but falco is slightly better, in terms of combo potential on each other they are pretty even too. but since falco can pull off a kill a little easier id give this is falcos favor. and crawling under lazers is bad. only sets us up to to be able to atk better out of it. (DACUS, reverse pivot grab, jab, or dash)

55:45 falcos favor

 

[Notra]

also ive played a few good shieks and they have a hard time gimping falcos when reading right, sure they can judge phantasm and keep u off the stage for a little, but w/ phantasm canceling that goes away. gimping shouldnt be that much of a concern vs shiek. a slight concern at best. ftilt is our enemy, and being in the air when we r facing towrd him. sets us up to get hit off the stage, and if u cant cancel phantasm, well then u may have a minor problem, but even then its hard for shiek to kill u or gimp u to death.

 

[Purple]

it's all about the grabs, if sheik gets her grab and f-tilt's the balls out of you (unless you DI away of course) it really hurts falco. But if you can get your chaingrab to spike and punish accordingly to how they'll recover, this matchup is easily in falco's favor.

But cut-dry play might make it easier for sheik's to gimp falco (usually if you shdl constantly and not notice sheik's fast movement towards you, constant phantasm onto the stage, etc.)

 

[ChamP_SlayZ]

At a recent tourney (about a month ago.) I did a lot of friendlies with a shiek main. From what i have learned the match up is pretty even. I personally like the match up and think its easily winable. You jus gotta keep in mind the tilt lock and do your best to stay out of it(i know harder said then done). CG ownZ the poor girl and lasers keep her away. and watch out for the needles when you are tryin to recover.

 

[clowsui]

Champ u clearly haven't played my sheik, i'll show you how gay it is on friday lol
moose's sheik is nothing compared to mine

 

[§witch]

it's all about the grabs, if sheik gets her grab and f-tilt's the balls out of you (unless you DI away of course) it really hurts falco. But if you can get your chaingrab to spike and punish accordingly to how they'll recover, this matchup is easily in falco's favor.

But cut-dry play might make it easier for sheik's to gimp falco (usually if you shdl constantly and not notice sheik's fast movement towards you, constant phantasm onto the stage, etc.)

Loooooooooool.

Okay, first of all, sheik's grab game isn't good. Secondly, you DI towards sheik to get out of the tilt lock.

Of course the best way to beat sheik is to camp. I don't think falco has a single match-up where camping isn't the best option.

 

[Dekillsage]

Loooooooooool.

Okay, first of all, sheik's grab game isn't good. Secondly, you DI towards sheik to get out of the tilt lock.

Of course the best way to beat sheik is to camp. I don't think falco has a single match-up where camping isn't the best option.

Camping doesn't work against Kirby and gameandwatch :[

Also Shieks Recovery isn't that good. You can Simply hold the edge and she will fall to her death.Chain grab desttroys shiek and needles are extremely easy to reflect. As for crawling against lazers. Are you going to crawl for the whole match? no? Then its lazer time

 

[yummynbeefy]

sheik can tiltlock the crap outta spacies falco is no exeption so yea

 

[Teran]

sheik can tiltlock the crap outta spacies falco is no exeption so yea

We didn't know this at all. We never considered this at all either.

OMG!

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

We didn't know this at all. We never considered this at all either.

OMG!

We should certainly reconsider the matchup with this *cough* newfound information.

90-10 for Sheik probably.

Seriously guys, sheik can tiltlock the crap outta spacies falco is no exeption so yea

 

[Blad01]

Loooooooooool.

Okay, first of all, sheik's grab game isn't good. Secondly, you DI towards sheik to get out of the tilt lock.

Of course the best way to beat sheik is to camp. I don't think falco has a single match-up where camping isn't the best option.

If you DI towards sheik, she can just reverse the tilt lock / follow with an attack or grab.
You can also DI downard at the very beginning of the tilt lock, and get a perfect shield, but it's risky.
If you DI upwards, you will eat an USmash, but if you can SDI fast, you can easily survive (not like Fox XP).

Camping doesn't work against Sheik that well, she can get to you quickly thanks to her dash speed, can crawl, and can rivalise with her needles (Less effective than lasers, but still annoying).

In this match-up, you just have to abuse of Falco's superior close combat, while neutralizing Sheik's moblity with SH Lasers.

I find the match-up to be 55-45, thanks to the chaingrab. (By the way, I've used Sheik against Falcos in the past, it feels really great to Fair edgeguard Falco )

 

[§witch]

If you DI towards sheik, she can just reverse the tilt lock / follow with an attack or grab.

DI'ing towards her is the best way to get out of the lock quickly. Just staying out isn't going to get you anywhere, her ending the lock early as opposed to the usmash kill is obviously preferable.

You can also DI downard at the very beginning of the tilt lock, and get a perfect shield, but it's risky.

It only works below ~20%.

If you DI upwards, you will eat an USmash, but if you can SDI fast, you can easily survive (not like Fox XP).

Correct.

Camping doesn't work against Sheik that well, she can get to you quickly thanks to her dash speed, can crawl, and can rivalise with her needles (Less effective than lasers, but still annoying).

Just camp more intelligently. Camping with falco isn't a linear thing; you have to keep mobile, and on your toes at all times. Sheik's needles aren't half as good as falco's lasers for camping purposes, and her crawl isn't of much help.

In this match-up, you just have to abuse of Falco's superior close combat, while neutralizing Sheik's moblity with SH Lasers.

I think sheik destroys falco up close. She out-ranges him with all of her tilts. The only thing falco has on sheik up close is possibly his jab, but the fact that her best move- ftilt- outranges his jab, and puts falco in a terrible position, says to me that falco gets ***** up close.

I find the match-up to be 55-45, thanks to the chaingrab. (By the way, I've used Sheik against Falcos in the past, it feels really great to Fair edgeguard Falco )

I think sheik beats falco by a fairly decent margin here, 60:40-65:45.