Matchup Discussion - Snake

[DtJ Hilt]

Oh yeah how the hell did I forget about Lylat. Never leave that stage unstruck. I'll comment more later, good stuff Jules.

 

[BOB SAGET!]

some added notes:

- if snakes are going to try to camp with olimar, they're going to go far range. Snake will cook grenades if he's too far to be punished. This make's it hard for olimar because grenades fly farther than pikmin. However, sometimes snakes won't even bother camping with olimar on some stages.

- Most snakes won't try to approach you with anything but DACUS if you're in that range. No snake will ever approach wth an aerial.

- Dash attack punishes whiffed grabs well, so be careful for that when in DACUS range.

- If a snake is going to start ftilting he'll usually put a nade infront of him to prevent you from grabbing.

 

[BOB SAGET!]

some added notes:

- if snakes are going to try to camp with olimar, they're going to go far range. Snake will cook grenades if he's too far to be punished. This make's it hard for olimar because grenades fly farther than pikmin. However, sometimes snakes won't even bother camping with olimar on some stages.

- Most snakes won't try to approach you with anything but DACUS if you're in that range. No snake will ever approach wth an aerial.

- Dash attack punishes whiffed grabs well, so be careful for that when in DACUS range.

- If a snake is going to start ftilting he'll usually put a nade infront of him to prevent you from grabbing.

 

[BOB SAGET!]

swf screw up

 

[Dnyce]

some added notes:

- if snakes are going to try to camp with olimar, they're going to go mid-range.

*fixed*

- If a snake is going to start ftilting he'll usually put a nade infront of him to prevent you from grabbing.

How is a nade going to stop us from grabbing his forward-tilt?

 

[DtJ Hilt]

No the Snake will oftentimes try to camp long range. We're the ones that want to camp mid range.

edit: Jules.. that's a really good writeup, actually. If a few things were changed (if pointed out by other Olimars), I would be completely fine with using that. I noticed you compiled points that other players have said, such as me and Fino. It covers everything in a simple and short manor. We could also have links to other important posts that would be too long to quote.

On a side note, I really really want to take a snake to Japes lol I think it could be an incredible Counterpick for us against him.

 

[Dnyce]

Camping long range lets us SH double pikmin toss out of DACUS range (ie what we want to do). Camping mid-range limits our ability to camp by being more susceptible to DACUS and forward-tilts.

Snake should not be able to out-camp Olimar... at All.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Us having to camp from the air is, in a since, limited lol. We don't have access to our best tools at keeping him out, as well as our moves at punishing his careless mistakes. And we still have to worry about grenades. Not that he outcamps us at long range, he just has an easier time XD.

When I say mid range, I in no way mean ftilt range lol. not that close, even though his ftilt is ****in huge. And even though he can't hit us with dacus when we're long range, it gives him an extremely easy way for him to get in, if we're in the air. not to mention he now has a mortar in the air, could have just thrown a grenade or still holding one, etcetera. Jumping to throw pikmin gives him a chance to get in on us which we in no way want.

 

[Dnyce]

Us having to camp from the air is, in a since, limited lol. We don't have access to our best tools at keeping him out, as well as our moves at punishing his careless mistakes. And we still have to worry about grenades. Not that he outcamps us at long range, he just has an easier time XD.

When I say mid range, I in no way mean ftilt range lol. not that close, even though his ftilt is ****in huge. And even though he can't hit us with dacus when we're long range, it gives him an extremely easy way for him to get in, if we're in the air. not to mention he now has a mortar in the air, could have just thrown a grenade or still holding one, etcetera. Jumping to throw pikmin gives him a chance to get in on us which we in no way want.

The SHDPT (wow abbreviations, lmao) easily shuts down Snake and forces him to come close, and which point we ground ourselves and start forward-smashing/grabbing (which is what we want). At long range we don't have to worry about keeping him out because he has a lot of distance to cover to get in.

I considered mid-range in the MU to be forward-tilt at max range to the end hitbox of his DACUS. I don't understand how camping at midrange is supposed to work since it's the exact opposite of what we're supposed to be doing.

Say we're camping long range, and he dacuses from allllll the way across stage to get to you. Depending on your reaction time you can (1) aerial dodge to the ground + forward smash (2) aerial dodge to the ground + pivot grab (3) n/d/b/fair into Snake (4) aerial dodge to the ground and tilt (for the lulz cause the snake is being ********) I mean... it's dumb for a snake to approach from that distance with a dacus.

Either there's some mis-communication going on... or one of us is playing the MU wrong, lmao.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Yeah I'm gonna go with miscommunication lol. When I say long range, I mean that the snake has just enough space to close the gap with one dacus and put us in ftilt range. When I say midrange, I mean far enough that he can't hit us with a forward tilt, but we can still hit him with pikmin toss. If that's the case, we're still completely able to force out his dacuz approaches, instead of having to find a way around him because we're in the air right when he got in. Him hitting us with it isn't the reason it's good against Olimar, it's the fact that, while we're tossing pikmin, he can use it to close the gap. And considering he normally doesn't have much of a reliable approach against us, we want him to have as few options as possible at getting in.

But yeah, I think it's just miscommunication on what's midrange and what's long range, because it's such a vague terminology XD

 

[BOB SAGET!]

No the Snake will oftentimes try to camp long range. We're the ones that want to camp mid range.

HAHAHA in your face FINO!


Btw fino we're outcamped at far range. This is because:


1. The grenades are likely to stop (after being thrown) at the edge of the stage.
2. Pikmin throw doesn't have as much range as grenades do.

 

[-Vocal-]

This is somewhat of off topic, but I'm really glad the boards came back to life after MLG

 

[DtJ Hilt]

lol Saget let's not provoke him XD We both brought out true points. And he and I do this from time to time <3 Fino

And yup Vocal! Knew they would lol

What do you all think for matchup definitions. I really think that a Slight Advantage would be fitting. But having it listed as Even would work as well.

 

[BOB SAGET!]

there's surely no straight up advantge or disadvantage between these 2 characters. It would be olimars advantage if Snake didn't survive for so long. But noooooooooo

 

[-Vocal-]

I say Olimar's slight advantage. Like Saget pointed out, Snakes survive ridiculously long, but I still think they have to work harder here than we do. While we can rely on some of our usual tactics (pikmin throw, space with fsmash and grab) and do quite well, Snake's grenades lose a lot of their potency and his DACUS does too, assuming we fsmash like we're supposed to. Those things said, he's still got many other tools to keep it from being a solid advantage, so I'm sticking with slight advantage.

 

[Jiom]

Thanks Hilt, when you said summary I just did what I thought a summary was, the MOST important stuff in the shortest you can make it. But ya, Maybe next time we do this "range" stuff one of us can get pictures.

edit: hmm, I'd have to list it as slight advantage but even then the advantage is really SLIGHT, not to far from being even.

 

[Sky Pirate]

Back when I played Wifi, a Snake player got around my long-range camping by full-hop high-tossing grenades. It was actually kind of a pain in the *** to deal with because only my yellows could hit that high.

 

[Jane]

there's surely no straight up advantge or disadvantage between these 2 characters. It would be olimars advantage if Snake didn't survive for so long. But noooooooooo

i agree. we can dominate snake more, and easier. BUT, he lives forever, that i think makes it even.

 

[BOB SAGET!]

Everyone seems to be leaning towards even to slight advantage. Do we all agree it's between these defenitions?

 

[Dnyce]

HAHAHA in your face FINO!


Btw fino we're outcamped at far range. This is because:


1. The grenades are likely to stop (after being thrown) at the edge of the stage.
2. Pikmin throw doesn't have as much range as grenades do.

In my face? We had a disagreement on terminology Bob.

1. Pikmin meat shield grenades better than anything (legal) in the game That and having a normal shield - grenades should not be a problem in this match-up.
2. Pikmin throw has plenty of range on it. I doubt snake and olimar will be trying to camp each other edge to edge of a stage like Halberd or FD, that would be a stalemate.

I give Hilt benefit of the doubt on some of his arguments because I know he doesn't camp NEARLY as hard as I do - he uses it as more of a mixup than a general strategy (imo). In such a situation I can't really say there's 1 clear cut right or wrong answer so I'm accepting both sides as viable.

Don't be so black and white Bob - there's no need to start something you can't win.

 

[BOB SAGET!]

In my face? We had a disagreement on terminology Bob.

1. Pikmin meat shield grenades better than anything (legal) in the game That and having a normal shield - grenades should not be a problem in this match-up.
2. Pikmin throw has plenty of range on it. I doubt snake and olimar will be trying to camp each other edge to edge of a stage like Halberd or FD, that would be a stalemate.

I give Hilt benefit of the doubt on some of his arguments because I know he doesn't camp NEARLY as hard as I do - he uses it as more of a mixup than a general strategy (imo). In such a situation I can't really say there's 1 clear cut right or wrong answer so I'm accepting both sides as viable.

Don't be so black and white Bob - there's no need to start something you can't win.

Fino no need to get all excited. The in your face thing was a joke. U have a different idea of what mid range and far range is. That can cause some confusion. Let me clarify something though:

1. I mentioned earlier that snakes will likely cook their grenades. They'll jump and throw grenades over and hit you. Sure pikmin can block them though, but it depends on how cooked the grenade is, how high snake jumps and what pikmin u throw (because of range.) You say I'm being black and white yet you say grenades shouldn't be a problem at all. That's pretty straight forward saying how one the moves that put Snake near the top of tier list shouldn't trouble olimar in anyway, form, or fashion.

2. Pikmin throw has range........I know............every move has range. Some moves have more range than others. Like how grenades have more range than pikmin. I know snake and olimar won't start camping from the very edge of the stage. But snake will camp far enough from all of olimars attacks.


Therefore: AT LONG RANGE SNAKE CAN HURT US BUT WE CAN'T HURT SNAKE!

So why would snake approach us with anything but DACUS? And you said it yourself. Snake wouldn't DACUS from such a far range for us to punish. I know we have different ideas of these ranges, since we agree olimar can hit him at mid range; why would snake always camp at a range where he can get hit?

 

[Sky Pirate]

A little information to consider:
1. Grenades, though a an excellent projectile, have a relatively low rate of fire. If he does miss (which is quite possible with pikmin out and a ready shield), it's going to take him a while to cook another grenade or two.

2. Olimar's shorthopped blue pikmin toss covers approximately half of FD, about the same distance as a grounded white toss. Shorthopped white tosses cover approximately 3/4 of FD. If you don't consider that long-range, I'm going to have to ask why you play on Bridge of Eldin.

Bah, I'm too pooped. Make this into an argumentative statement in your minds.

 

[Dnyce]

1. I mentioned earlier that snakes will likely cook their grenades. They'll jump and throw grenades over and hit you. Sure pikmin can block them though, but it depends on how cooked the grenade is, how high snake jumps and what pikmin u throw (because of range.) You say I'm being black and white yet you say grenades shouldn't be a problem at all. That's pretty straight forward saying how one the moves that put Snake near the top of tier list shouldn't trouble olimar in anyway, form, or fashion.

2. Pikmin throw has range........I know............every move has range. Some moves have more range than others. Like how grenades have more range than pikmin. I know snake and olimar won't start camping from the very edge of the stage. But snake will camp far enough from all of olimars attacks.

Your last argument either reflect your stupidity or is blatant trolling, neither of which I will respond to.

Therefore: AT LONG RANGE SNAKE CAN HURT US BUT WE CAN'T HURT SNAKE!

So why would snake approach us with anything but DACUS? And you said it yourself. Snake wouldn't DACUS from such a far range for us to punish. I know we have different ideas of these ranges, since we agree olimar can hit him at mid range; why would snake always camp at a range where he can get hit?

1. You have any idea how many pikmin we can throw in the time that Snake can cook a grenade? He's going to be taking a lot of damage and pressure and will most likely throw it early.
Pikmin block grenades no matter how long they are cooked, that argument is completely ********. Do grenades magically transcend physics when they are being cooked? no. You can probably throw 4-5 pikmin in the time he cooks a grenade. Now, Olimar is SHDPT and varying the throw + the differing arc heights and lengths of the different colored pikmin that are tossed make up an incredibly great shield. Best part? if the grenade happens to pass by 4-5 different things blocking it's path between you and him, you are perfectly capable of shielding the grenade and resuming your camp (which at long range doesn't matter since there isn't a whole lot he can do to punish you shielding) or jumping over the explosion while still camping.
I'm saying grenades shouldn't be a problem, you just aren't understanding why. For some reason you do not understand these BASICS that I am describing in great length for you. So I continue, to reiterate everything again because you are incompetent. Show me your results and get back to me.
I'm not even going to bother making an argument against your tier list garbage. Utterly ********.

2. Avoid the grenades, shield with pikmin toss. Your SHDPT has the range to latch snake while being safe (long range).

A little information to consider:
1. Grenades, though a an excellent projectile, have a relatively low rate of fire. If he does miss (which is quite possible with pikmin out and a ready shield), it's going to take him a while to cook another grenade or two.

2. Olimar's shorthopped blue pikmin toss covers approximately half of FD, about the same distance as a grounded white toss. Shorthopped white tosses cover approximately 3/4 of FD. If you don't consider that long-range, I'm going to have to ask why you play on Bridge of Eldin.

Bah, I'm too pooped. Make this into an argumentative statement in your minds.

Thank you SCC for some backup.


So Bob, for future reference: since I'm a "jerk" for using actual experience to try and help you not lose, I'll just respond to everything I disagree with as "you're ********." Get used to reading it, I'll be saying it a lot I'll be flat out honest, I think you're terrible and are not worth my time anymore.

*stole from google

 

[MJG]

Dang....









All hilt said is that they would "Try" to camp from afar. Btw, snake sucks.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

/thread

 

[Dabuz]

thats only if olimar can throw pikmin and predict the height and strengths he throws grenades perfectly, in theory we always win, in practice, both oli or snake can win, its just who can camp smarter and find the right openings to get close

 

[BOB SAGET!]

@fino

If you wanna play at that game...





Edit: U really thought I think cooked grenades "magically transcend physics. " What I meant was if a cooked grenade gets too close to you, u might not have time to shield.

 

[Noa.]

Anyways, the writeup should be done soon. Idk if Hilt's doing it. Someone else COULD. And if you don't know how just check the format that was posted recently in the main matchup thread.

 

[ScAtt77]

Does anyone know if it's possible to whistle a mine?

 

[DtJ Hilt]

You can whistle anything that isn't a grab of some sort. Some moves you can't whistle because they are multihits and will hit you too many times, with time in between the hits, that lasts longer than your whistle (such as Meta Knight's bair). But anything that hits a single time you can whistle.

 

[Dnyce]

No, throw more pikmin and you'll never see snake use a mine to be able to whistle

***fixed***

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I have a question about something that was not addressed earlier. Jungle Japes is legal is my region and would like some input and about whether this a decent stage for either character. I can see Snake going for the time out here but I would like an Olimar's opinion since I'm not very good at the Oli vs Snake matchup yet.

Also listen to Fino he knows what he's talking about and has summed up this (infuriating) matchup to a tee.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Jungle Japes is a good Olimar stage, although most Olimars either don't have experience on it, or simply just don't like the stage, so there are going to be some disagreements in what I'm saying, lol. I could go into more detail on the benefits Olimar gets on it, but I've started testing it as a CP against Snake and it works well. It isn't devastating for either side in the matchup, but there are more benefits given to Olimar, and a lot of the problems Olimar has in the matchup are removed on this stage.

 

[Noa.]

I will agree with Hilt that Japes is a decent CP for Olimar. The high ceiling hurts Snake more than us, and Oli can abuse the platforms much better than Snake can.

Since the stage is also big that's useful since those are the kinds of stages we want.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Hilt could you elaborate? I'm interested to know the details. Why must I have L_Cancel and Coco in my state -_-

 

[DtJ Hilt]

One of the biggest problems for Olimar in the matchup is that he's dominated when Snake finds his way into Olimar's bubble. Oftentimes, getting away isn't too large of a problem, however when Olimar finds himself cornered against the ledge, with Snake right on top of him, things become quite a bit more difficult. In most matchups, this is the worst position Olimar can be in, sometimes even worse than being offstage, haha.

However, Japes is a bit different. Find yourself cornered against a ledge? Well, on Japes you're still able to run from your opponent and have an entire area you're able to retreat to. It's too difficult for Snake to corner Olimar on Japes. Not only that, but Snake approaching an Olimar that's camping from the right section is difficult for him. If he takes his time too much, it's possible for the Olimar to retreat from the section, back to the center platform, even if he has to use the water (which isn't a problem).

And then there's the obvious problems, such as Snake being more reliant on vertical kills, Olimar having overall better stage control, and the water Saving us from gimps and whatnot on the right side. All in all, there aren't many problems for Olimar on Japes, while Snake's kill options, his approach options, his camping options, are all hindered in this matchup on this stage. I'm not sure how Snake fares on the stage in general, but it's definitely not the stage you want to pick for this matchup.

What other stages do you have in mind?

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

That makes perfect sense. And with Olimar's stage control, he could camp the center platform and control the stage.

Japes is an average Snake CP but shines in a few matchups I believe.

My favorite CPs are Frigate, Picto and Castle Siege and I can't see any of them being remotely useful in this matchup.

I am curious about Lylat however. Honestly I think both characters excel on the same stages minus 1 or 2 exceptions but Snake gets stage CPed harder.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Frigate is a decent CP for Snake against Olimar, but it's nothing spectacular. It's just a solid counterpick. Pictochat is one of my Counterpicks against Snake, actually, lol. Castle Siege is, for the most part, a good Olimar stage, but I don't know how it would fair against Snake. I wouldn't do it, actually. Lylat Cruise is definitely a solid choice for you, the platforms, being as low as they are, help your explosives game a lot more than it helps our ability to juggle. And the stage making it more difficult to see your explosives can be a problem, considering that stage control is a huge deal for Olimar in this matchup, and C4/Grenades limit it. So overall, the stage boosts your stage control game a bit more.

In all honesty, Halberd isn't a bad choice. Even though Olimar does get a boost as well from the ceiling, Snake's is a bigger deal. And the platform helps your grenade game against Olimar, once again. Still, not a huge devastating counterpick, but it's one of the best you'll get.

So yeah, Frigate, Lylat Cruise, and Halberd are (imo) your best options. Most other stages will bring personally preference into play. Like Rainbow Cruise isn't a bad choice against some Olimars, but against others like L Cancel and Fino, it wouldn't be a good idea. Same goes for Brinstar and stuff like that.

 

[-Vocal-]

So much orange text O_O

 

[DtJ Hilt]

I know, it's like I'm talking to myself XD