Matchup Discussion - Snake

[Tin Man]

I prefer dthrow fair because you have more options out of it and it is guaranteed at higher percents than dthrow upsmash. Both are equally viable.

I also agree with this. It also depends on the character. On falco I Dthrow to Usmash x2 to Uair, fox I d throw 3 times to U smash to Uair or from 3rd dthrow I fair then Dthrow again lol (too many options, gon stop here,but these r a few.

 

[Jane]

dead even matchup imo

thats all for now Olibros

 

[Today]

I need this info! O': Keep it up, guys.

 

[Tin Man]

iunno, seems we're good

thanks jane <3

imo lets move on

 

[-Vocal-]

I agree, I think there's plenty here to mull over and digest. ICs next, please?

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Not just yet kids.

Colors: How do you all feel about specific pikmin against Snake?
Stages: What do you usually strike against Snake? What do you counterpick? What do you ban? What should you be prepared for, for the Snake to counterpick to?

As for colors, here's how I feel:

If you're going to hit snake, you're going to hit him regardless of whether or not you have a yellow's disjoints. And considering Yellows have bad damage and knockback, range was the main reason they were considered as good as they were. So I feel they're the worse Pikmin in this matchup.

Purples are definitely the best. Obvious reasons.

Whites are actually really good in this matchup. Forces snake to do something that could leave him open, mess up his approach, rack up easy damage that we need desperately, etc.

Blues are great, as you're going to be landing a lot of grabs, and blue throw damage is incredible. Especially since, as Fino said, going for forward and back throws can be beneficial.

Reds are good as well because you'll need the extra damage outside of throws, too. There isn't anything notable making reds great in this matchup (there usually isn't), but they're not worse than Yellows for once lol.

So I think:
P>B>W≥R>Y

 

[-Vocal-]

*hits the brakes* yea, guess I did just kind of rush there.

I agree with your listings on pikmin, especially since you explained the almost-non-existant yellow hitstun the other day; don't need them clogging up a grab combo.

As for stages, I usually ban Frigate against them. The second transformation (with the platform) isn't too bad, but the first one is a very high stress environment. I try not to even count the rising platform on the right as part of the playable stage (too close to getting gimped) which leaves a very small space to play in. Add to this that Snake can drop a C4 bomb on the tiny platform on the left and half of that space becomes a minefield, literally. Like I said, the second transformation is fine, but the first one is a bit too high risk for my tastes.

For counterpicking, I keep it old school: Final Destination or Battlefield. I like Final Destination because I don't have to worry about C4 being dropped on platforms above me (a la BF and SV for a few). I feel it also restricts his approach options, not to mention it makes it easier to punish his landings. Final benefit: there's a lot less stage control going on. I guess this is the same as my first reason, but, imo, Snake isn't as good as creating dangers zones on this level as he is on others.

Then there's Battlefield. The reason I like this stage is because of good old fashioned juggling. I pretty much take any time Snake lands on a platform to be an open invitation to uair, and I don't know the specifics on Snake's shield but I don't think I've ever seen someone block every single hit. The disadvantages on this stage are that Snake can control the stage better with grenades and C4, plus there's less room lengthwise which makes pivot grabbing his DACUS less of an option. However, I think that as long as you're smart at getting around his obstacles this stage can be good, and there's still fsmash to stop DACUS so it's not too much of a loss.

And for starter stages, I also think PS1 is a fairly good choice. I think Olimar adapts to the changes better than Snake does, and the constant changes keep Snake from gaining too much stage control. The only transformation I actually dislike is the Rock Stage; if I'm on the left side, it's too easy for Snake to drop grenades and camp me; if I'm on the other side, the stage is very cramped, and I dislike being that close to Snakes ftilt, plus grenades also become a problem (at least for me they have).

I think that's all I have to say about stages. Definitely waiting to hear from the more seasoned players

 

[Latias]

needs snake players.

 

[-Vocal-]

needs snake players.

Offtopic: I've always wondered: why does your Location say you main Olimar, but the mini-picture is of ICs?

 

[Latias]

Offtopic: I've always wondered: why does your Location say you main Olimar, but the mini-picture is of ICs?

ics mini icon is cute :3
why dont you ask ally the same question?

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Yellows are the best for downthrow combos. The only problem with them is that they stop comboing after 14% (second longest), while blues combo until 19%. Until that percent, though, they have more hitstun than any of the others. If yellows are bad for dthrow combos, red and whites are god awful lol

I think you misread my post.

 

[Latias]

Yellows are the best for downthrow combos. The only problem with them is that they stop comboing after 14% (second longest), while blues combo until 19%. Until that percent, though, they have more hitstun than any of the others. If yellows are bad for dthrow combos, red and whites are god awful lol

I think you misread my post.

isnt dthrow to sh fair guaranteed at certain percents, and after that does a second jump nair to tether worK?

 

[DtJ Hilt]

I don't know about the Nair to tether is after the fair, but yes. Until certain percents, Dthrow to Fair is guaranteed. I posted the hitstun data a while ago in the Q&A thread, I think.

 

[Jane]

for the colors, i feel reds are just a little bit better than whites. i agree whites are great - long *** grab range and easy to stick, buuuuut


red fair when snake is offstage is TOO good. plus you'll be fsmashing and uairing a lot and reds excel there too. but what i think makes them better comes down to the red fair offstage.



i usually ban frigate (but i ban that regardless of character lol) and go to one of the neutrals. but im definitely gonna start trying to go to delfino

 

[-Vocal-]

Yellows are the best for downthrow combos. The only problem with them is that they stop comboing after 14% (second longest), while blues combo until 19%. Until that percent, though, they have more hitstun than any of the others. If yellows are bad for dthrow combos, red and whites are god awful lol

I think you misread my post.

Oh my, I definitely did lol, and here I've been throwing away my yellows since then I still agree with your reasoning though, very nice pikmin hierarchy going on.

 

[Latias]

needs snake players.

still need.

 

[BOB SAGET!]

I can't believe no one brought up banning brinstar yet. Brinstar is another terrible stage against snake. If you're banning frigate, it's almost certain he'll bring you here.

Parts of the stage screw up our fsmashes, which is our best spacing tool especially against DACUS. When the stage is broken we are forced to jump which will put us in bad situations. He has nice places to put c4s, and land mines. And lava certainly doesn't really help much because snake isn't a character thats gonna gimp us. The lava just puts us above snake, which is a really bad position.

In this stage, purples (our best pikmin colour) have a 15% chance of being plucked.

While yellows (our worst pikmin colour) are the most common pikmin to be plucked with the chance at 30%.

 

[Dnyce]

I can't believe no one brought up banning brinstar yet. Brinstar is another terrible stage against snake. If you're banning frigate, it's almost certain he'll bring you here.

Parts of the stage screw up our fsmashes, which is our best spacing tool especially against DACUS. When the stage is broken we are forced to jump which will put us in bad situations. He has nice places to put c4s, and land mines. And lava certainly doesn't really help much because snake isn't a character thats gonna gimp us. The lava just puts us above snake, which is a really bad position.

In this stage, purples (our best pikmin colour) have a 15% chance of being plucked.

While yellows (our worst pikmin colour) are the most common pikmin to be plucked with the chance at 30%.

You're kidding... right?

 

[BOB SAGET!]

lol...........wat part of that post sounds ****ed up.

 

[CT Chia]

tbh i cant see why brinstar would be that bad for olimar

the terrain is rly gonna mess up snakes spacing and such while olimar is gonna take good advantage of the jump through stage, and i would think the platform structure would be nice as well.

 

[Dnyce]

That and snake isn't going to be mortar sliding around a whole lot on Brinstar. Not to mention grab beats almost everything Snake has and the curvy terrain of Brinstar makes our grab game better.


I have never seen a Snake CP Brinstar on anyone... ever. lol

 

[Jane]

ok so, take snake to

delfino, bf, final d, picto if legal



be wary of

halberd, smashville, yoshis?


what is everyones input

 

[Today]

Smashville isn't that big of a deal. Battlefield and FD are completely up to personal preference. They're good for opposite reasons. Brinstar isn't a big deal.

-Hilt

 

[BOB SAGET!]

Dammit hilt.....I thought u were gonna back me up!

 

[-Vocal-]

So the only person I've heard mention anything about what Snake will CP against us is Saget, and there doesn't seem to be much support for his theory What about the rest of you?

 

[Dnyce]

IMO, any stage that gives you lots of room will go a long way for Olimar. Delfino and Halberd are my two favorite stages, so I usually go to whichever one isn't banned. Then again, those two are my choices for almost every character, lol.

As for counter picks - I (personally) don't like smashville against Snake, but not enough to ban it. Low ceilings benefit both characters. Pictochat is a favorite for Snakes, but again Olimar does just as well there. Snake's Counterpick is really about personal preference, though I would venture to think they would go somewhere like Frigate (so ban that).

 

[BOB SAGET!]

@fino: isnt fsmash is a better option at stopping snake's approaches then grab. btw, it doesnt seem like im the only one who agress with banning brinstar. It says u should ban brinstar against snake at the stage discusion thread. Someone else must of agreed with me.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Pictochat isn't a favorite for snakes O_o His ftilt killing us a bit earlier when we're against the ledge (it would anyways, usually) isn't that big of a deal considering most of his kills come off the top against us. The whites, imo, help a lot as well in the matchup. And the transformations benefit us a lot more than they do him, and make his approaches against us difficult. Similar to Delfino. It's a great stage to counterpick him to.

 

[Sky Pirate]

Only problem with Pictochat would be that he's better at hiding his easter egg there.
Doesn't seem like a big problem if you watch him well, though.

 

[Jane]

Hmm, so sounds to me like there really isnt any extremely beneficial OR any horribly awful stages vs snake

So, stage with clear advantage to oli is delfino

While stage with clear advantage to snake is frigate?

And every other stage is personal preference?

 

[DtJ Hilt]

I really say Halberd is the worst stage to face him on, just because we have to focus on living as long as possible until we're able to kill him. Even though both characters' primary method of killing is vertical in this matchup, Snake's methods of killing are more reliable, and we should be focusing on living in this matchup more so than killing. Not that Halberd is at all that bad against him, not really any stage is. But it would be the least liked option.

 

[Jane]

youd feel more comfortable on halberd than frigate? man ive been pushed to the right side and gimped too much to feel that way lol

 

[Latias]

needs snake players.

 

[-Vocal-]

Question(s): Can you tech Snake's dthrow? Is the timing difficult to master? Is this even a good option, and if it is which is the best - tech in place, towards Snake, or away from Snake?

 

[Today]

This is Hilt: Latias shut up. I sent a message to the snake player's in their matchup thread awhile ago. If they want to come here, they will. If they don't want to come in here, they won't. If you want them to come so badly, pester them, not us.

@Vocal, you can't tech it, haha. After getting downthrown, you just have the four options. If you do the regular getup (up on the control stick) you sometimes will have time to do something else (utilt, usmash, jump, jab?), but it sets you on the ground, there's no way to tech it.

 

[-Vocal-]

This is Hilt: Latias shut up. I sent a message to the snake player's in their matchup thread awhile ago. If they want to come here, they will. If they don't want to come in here, they won't. If you want them to come so badly, pester them, not us.

@Vocal, you can't tech it, haha. After getting downthrown, you just have the four options. If you do the regular getup (up on the control stick) you sometimes will have time to do something else (utilt, usmash, jump, jab?), but it sets you on the ground, there's no way to tech it.

Son of a Peach. Oh well.

So next question: at the end of this discussion, what do we do with the information? Just leave a link in the directory? Quote/Summarize all of the important info, stages, tactics, etc into one post?

 

[DtJ Hilt]

I'll (or someone else if someone I trust wants to) summarize the information into the OP, and link the OP post in the Matchup Directory.

 

[Latias]

I'll (or someone else if someone I trust wants to) summarize the information into the OP, and link the OP post in the Matchup Directory.

you filtered me out already?

 

[Jiom]

Ok to star this off.. NEVER LEAVE THE GROUND AGAINST SNAKE. If you are going to SH double pikmin toss only do it if you are not in mortar slide range. Once you are inside it’s only safe to SH and throw one and then retreating aerial dodge/ forward air. This does not apply if Snake has thrown a grenade at you and you shield it and it’s lying on the ground. Otherwise stay grounded against snake.

Use a lot of forward smash and for every move you do use 2 or 3 standing grabs, snake has only the option to throw projectiles at you, even if you aren’t close because you don’t want him to approach and ge inside.

Snakes like to throw a grenade and then try to approach after it. If you f/bthrow snake off stage and snake is in the air, it is easy to rack up damage on him. Snakes like to aerial dodge into the ground a lot so pivot grab and f/dsmash all of their landings. Up throws with blue/purple pikmin will kill snake faster then b/f throws. Snake can’t fall safely against us, his best aerial to use to hit us away is bair so really be sure to punish his landings.

After snake finds out f smash / grab stop his mortar slide he will start camping a lot more. When you are on the ledge at kill percent, expect an u tilt.

Long Range: You are at a safe distance to spam pikmin, if grenades are by you get away from them. Pikmin will stop incoming grenades from moving further.

Middle Range: This is where the character that takes advantage of the range will put the other character in a BAD POSITION. ONLY short hop and throw a pikmin if it is a purple one, otherwise, don’t do it.
Close Range: To stop the f tilt, grab at your maximum range.

Above the opponent: By far the worst spot to be in, Whistle bouncing is a really good option, if you are off stage get to an edge. Watch out for everything because they will get you back in the air. Snake himself will likely pivot grab or tilt, air dodging into snake is a very poor choice. Landing on a platform can help.

Best stages to take snake to: Delfino, FD, Pictochat

Worst stages for us: Frigate, Lylat

Additonal info: Fsmash if snake is on the ledge, Yellows are possibly worst pikmin to have because of lower knockback. White pikmin make snake do something that can let us punish him.


Thanks everyone for posting, I kind of went through this fast because I get distracted easily, but this should help you out, Hilt.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Oh yeah how the hell did I forget about Lylat. Never leave that stage unstruck. I'll comment more later, good stuff Jules.