Matchup Discussion: Lucas

[Veril]

What amazing hair! I've waited long enough for this discussion to come up, so I'm starting it myself.

Its time to discuss that (snazzy) psychic child. GOGOGO!


Please do not just post matchup ratios. They don't matter. The fact is, this isn't a matchup we would require a counterpick for. What's the point of arguing these purely theoretical #s. Or even who has the advantage overall. Who has the advantage WHERE is useful.

 

[Veril]

Reserved for betrayal.

Lucas:

- His smashes will kill Jigglypuff very early. If you get predictable with approaching you'll eat a d-smash. If you miss rest you will get hit with a fully-charged up-smash. If you can GDI it won't KO you, but it does enormous amounts of damage. Without GDI you're not going to survive that. The f-smash is really fast and really powerful, and Lucas has a number of ways to combo into it.

- He has a fantastic recovery, notably if he has the double jump. Any of you who have played my Lucas have seen how absurd it is. Don't run into the PKT, that only works on Ness. All of your aerials will beat it out so you can gimp that way. BEWARE THE SPIKES!

- The spikes...

- Combos and such: At lower% he can use n-air to combo into jabs, f-tilt and up-tilt. Autocanceled n-air combos can lead to f-air and other nasty things. Lucas can Jab-cancel into f-smashes, or tilts. This is ****. SDI away. The jab is really fast and has really high priority. FF autocanceled D-air combos are insane. Learn to tech the d-air spike or you'll get d-tilted, tripped, and f-smashed. Or tilt-locked. In which case you're doomed. Don't miss techs.

- His up-smash can stage spike. Don't roll from the ledge onto the stage, Lucas can hit you with up-smash... ****.

- He doesn't really have to follow you offstage since he has PKT. (I just follow because... well its a bad habit). You basically don't want to be offstage if he is onstage. PsiM will kill you. Don't get hit by it. PK-Fire will beat pound because of its lingering hitbox. SH-aerial approaches will require a lot of SHADing due to wavebounced PK-fire. On the ground you can powershield... don't be on the ground though.

- Don't try the grab-release regrab, it won't work. If Lucas whiffs a dash grab, you basically have time to write a novella about how you are going to punish it. His pivot grab is a lot better and his throws are dangerous.

-WOP offstage kills Lucas. As soon as you've got him offstage, he's in serious trouble. This is how you should be KOing Lucas.

 

[Noobicidal]

I'm not THAT knowledgeable about Lucas, but I'll take a swing at it.

Lucas is a very versatile character, especially with his recovery. He has a PLETHORA of recovery options: Zap jumping, Magnet Pull, PKT2... tether. He's a hard son of a gun to WoP. Lucas also has a very good ground game, which Jiggs arguably doesn't. Nair acts as Lucas' snazzy rendition of MK's Omnigay in a sense and out prioritizes many of Jiggs' approaches. Jigglypuff has a bit of a problem with PK Fire since it still a'splodes if you attempt to cancel it. Did I mention his smashes are deadly? -.-

35:65 Jiggs.

 

[:mad:]

I'm really not sure if I can help out with this... I main both of em'.
I feel conflicted.

60:40 Lucas.

 

[Veril]

I'm really not sure if I can help out with this... I main both of em'.
I feel conflicted.

60:40 Lucas.

Lucas is my old main. Don't feel conflicted. et tu Veril...

Lucas is a very versatile character, especially with his recovery. He has a PLETHORA of recovery options: Zap jumping, Magnet Pull, PKT2... tether. He's a hard son of a gun to WoP. Lucas also has a very good ground game, which Jiggs arguably doesn't. Nair acts as Lucas' snazzy rendition of MK's Omnigay in a sense and out prioritizes many of Jiggs' approaches. Jigglypuff has a bit of a problem with PK Fire since it still a'splodes if you attempt to cancel it. Did I mention his smashes are deadly? -.-

35:65 Jiggs.

Sorta. Some things here aren't true. His recovery is amazing but he gets really messed up by WOP. That's basically what you should always go for.

N-air has very low priority actually. It just can combo really well.

PKF > Pound.

 

[Tham]

hm ...
lucas is a matchup, im know a bit better than some others
fighting the first time against a good lucas i couldnt do anything against FJ dairs, they were hgiher than my short hopped attacks and pushed me to the ground
attention is a very big point in this MU, once hit by a smash by lucas and jiggs is killed ... and lucas' sidesmash is really fast
gimping lucas is possible, problem is, that the upB goes through jigglypuff, so u have to try to hit lucas and not his upB-thing (and that isnt that easy online^^)
side B can really go on your nerves, but with enough spacing u can avoid it - but u cant touch lucas un that case xD

shieldgrabbing is imo a good use against lucas, cause his grab is rather slowly

i gonne fight against the best lucas i know in the following days and maybe ill change my oppinion about that match up, but its atm about 60:40 Lucas because he can kill fast and can keep u on distance, fj dair can be dangerous ... but i maybe gonne change my mind after a few matches^^

 

[Metatitan]

from my experience if he tries usmash and misses just rest him. uhm not too much lucas experience tho

 

[Spoonbob]

Lol...be very very careful if you go to, say, nair his PKT while he tries to use a PKT2 to recover (I don't know how many Lucas players do this, since I don't know how much altitude is lot in the startup of that super jump). It's all too embarrassing for Jiggs everywhere if you jump off after him and get completely owned.

PK Fire > our approaches. We don't "cancel" it in the traditional sense, and the method that Noob found requires exact DI. Luckily, it's not very difficult to get by, but it is very, very annoying. Again, be careful, as grounded PK Fire has waaaay more lag than one shorthopped. Don't get surprised if you try to run in after the move and get knocked out.

Very few Lucas players will use a random PK Love, but if they do and they miss, that is a free rest (or rollout, depending).

Hm. That's all, for now.

 

[Irsic]

Played against thinkaman and lonejedi at the MWC tournament this past weekend, both tried to WOP me off the stage for a KO several times, both failed. Both are great Jigglypuff players, too.

If Lucas DI's correctly and doesn't waste time off stage, he can easily just wait out your jumps and recover.

 

[Veril]

Lucas players will use a random PK Love for the lols

Fixed. That is the reason for 90% of pk-love usage in friendles imo.

 

[Teh Future]

Played against thinkaman and lonejedi at the MWC tournament this past weekend, both tried to WOP me off the stage for a KO several times, both failed. Both are great Jigglypuff players, too.

If Lucas DI's correctly and doesn't waste time off stage, he can easily just wait out your jumps and recover.

Thinkaman and Lonejedi both placed like a million times higher than you at OshKosh......

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Wouldn't that speak even more in favor of Lucas's ability to avoid a WOP?

 

[illinialex24]

I like this matchup because if you space really well and learn to shield better and the like, it helps out a lot. Also, perfect timing is useful because if you know exactly what you are doing, you can gimp Lucas or get out of the way every time, but the slightest screwup can kill you.

 

[Teh Future]

Wouldn't that speak even more in favor of Lucas's ability to avoid a WOP?

Yeah I guess, Lucas's recovery is still gimpable though if Lucas is knocked under the stage it is difficult to get back up.

I think I misread Isric's post though, to me it sounded like he said he had beaten Lonejedi and Think, but I don't think that's what he meant to imply. I dont even know if they played in the tournament, the bracket wasn't posted.

 

[illinialex24]

Yeah I guess, Lucas's recovery is still gimpable though if Lucas is knocked under the stage it is difficult to get back up.

I think I misread Isric's post though, to me it sounded like he said he had beaten Lonejedi and Think, but I don't think that's what he meant to imply. I dont even know if they played in the tournament, the bracket wasn't posted.

Yeah you can gimp Lucas but you essentially have to be Jigglypuff because you need a lot of jumps, you need a move that lasts forever to screw with his ability to either go straight for PKT2 or flash bouncing back to the stage (whatever you call it) that can be Died really well (nair) and then the ability to continuously lower your opponent afterwards and get them to the bottom (bair, dair, sourspot fairs).

It isn't easy but it most definitely can be done. And 1 screwup is 20+ damage often or a stock.

 

[lonejedi]

I did play irsic I think. In pools? I forget. I thought I had a few nice edge guards with WoP. I don't remember the match very well. I do know if it was in pools, I went 2-0.

The main thing you have to worry about lucas is his priority in the air. Lucas has some really good priority that he can connect attacks. His arials are so fast, so if you get hit by one, lucas can follow it up pretty easily. One thing I try to do is take away his pk thunder. Jiggs has so many jumps, you can risk jumping out to get hit by the pk thunder when lucas is trying to recover, just fly right above lucas, but expect a u air. Pounding lucas is also really good.

 

[Veril]

I did play irsic I think. In pools? I forget. I thought I had a few nice edge guards with WoP. I don't remember the match very well. I do know if it was in pools, I went 2-0.

The main thing you have to worry about lucas is his priority in the air. Lucas has some really good priority that he can connect attacks. His arials are so fast, so if you get hit by one, lucas can follow it up pretty easily. One thing I try to do is take away his pk thunder. Jiggs has so many jumps, you can risk jumping out to get hit by the pk thunder when lucas is trying to recover, just fly right above lucas, but expect a u air. Pounding lucas is also really good.

WOP is really dangerous offstage. Don't jump into PKT. That works on Ness, not lucas. Nair actually has very low priority so exploit that if possible.

Pound is always good

 

[illinialex24]

Right, you want to use a move that makes it so you can only hit the PKT if you know he just popped it out. If you see it before you do the move and you aren't on his backside, hit him, your too late.

 

[Maniclysane]

The only time I can pull off a WoP on Lucas or Ness is if I'm already offstage while they're recovering. If I've just knocked them off, but I'm still on the stage, usually I just back up and dair them as they get off the ledge. WoP is really easy if you're both offstage though.

 

[illinialex24]

The only time I can pull off a WoP on Lucas or Ness is if I'm already offstage while they're recovering. If I've just knocked them off, but I'm still on the stage, usually I just back up and dair them as they get off the ledge. WoP is really easy if you're both offstage though.

Right, if your not offstage when they start PKT, don't even try. I go to a power position on the ledge because it forces them to land in a weak position so they are open for a bair or grab. If I don't have invincibility when they come, I just roll off the ledge. I'm gonna test to see if with the slow edge attack or roll if you can fully edgehug them.

 

[Veril]

Right, if your not offstage when they start PKT, don't even try. I go to a power position on the ledge because it forces them to land in a weak position so they are open for a bair or grab. If I don't have invincibility when they come, I just roll off the ledge. I'm gonna test to see if with the slow edge attack or roll if you can fully edgehug them.

If Jiggs isn't actively pursuing me when I'm recovering, ie. she isn't offstage, I will always wavezap if the second jump is available. If not I will PKT2 above the edge so as to avoid the edgehog. Its harder to do these things online but offline you really have to be aggressive cause Lucas has incredible vertical speed in all his recovery options and absurd horizontal speed with the wavezap magnet pull.

Don't assume Lucas will try to sweetspot with PKT2, cause its often a terrible idea. Keep in mind we have a tether as well.

I'll try to play Glick when I see him next so I get at least a few good offline matches (wifi really is bs in regards to PKT recovery timing... though it helps lucas in a bunch of other ways, PKlove lol, it definitely makes it much easier to gimp or WOP him).

 

[illinialex24]

If Jiggs isn't actively pursuing me when I'm recovering, ie. she isn't offstage, I will always wavezap if the second jump is available. If not I will PKT2 above the edge so as to avoid the edgehog. Its harder to do these things online but offline you really have to be aggressive cause Lucas has incredible vertical speed in all his recovery options and absurd horizontal speed with the wavezap magnet pull.

Don't assume Lucas will try to sweetspot with PKT2, cause its often a terrible idea. Keep in mind we have a tether as well.

I'll try to play Glick when I see him next so I get at least a few good offline matches (wifi really is bs in regards to PKT recovery timing... though it helps lucas in a bunch of other ways, PKlove lol, it definitely makes it much easier to gimp or WOP him).

We know. The ledge is the perfect place. If they go for the tether and you grab the ledge they have to PKT2. If they PKT2 and your on the ledge, your in a huge position of power.

 

[Veril]

We know. The ledge is the perfect place. If they go for the tether and you grab the ledge they have to PKT2. If they PKT2 and your on the ledge, your in a huge position of power.

Yeah, PKT2 has so much range and it can lag cancel if timed properly. You don't have to go for the ledge and the amazing electric lucas has pretty crazy priority. Lucas really can't be edgehogged unless the player messes up or is WAAAY below the stage.

 

[illinialex24]

Yeah, PKT2 has so much range and it can lag cancel if timed properly. You don't have to go for the ledge and the amazing electric lucas has pretty crazy priority. Lucas really can't be edgehogged unless the player messes up or is WAAAY below the stage.

Right but edgehogging it puts you in a position of power. This is because you can punish him for going above you fairly well.

 

[Glick]

Edging lucas/ness is way easy. just press towards the stage when they are about to hit you with pkt2 to start to go into your get up animation. They should bounce off the side.

 

[Veril]

Edging ness is way easy. just press towards the stage when they are about to hit you with pkt2 to start to go into your get up animation. They should bounce off the side.

fixed. Lucas has enough range on PKT2 that he does not have to sweetspot the edge.

 

[Maniclysane]

fixed. Lucas has enough range on PKT2 that he does not have to sweetspot the edge.

Assuming you haven't already knocked Lucas far enough away, so he couldn't get to the ledge.

 

[Veril]

Assuming you haven't already knocked Lucas far enough away, so he couldn't get to the ledge.

We've already established you don't know anything about Lucas. The range of PKT2 is insane. Its just about impossible to knock him that far away.

Oh, also, PKT2 can lag cancel. The idea that Lucas's recovery is super-punishable is a myth.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

where would you fight lucas at?

id like to contribute more, but i only know the characters from one side not facing each other unfortunately.

 

[Veril]

where would you fight lucas at?

id like to contribute more, but i only know the characters from one side not facing each other unfortunately.

Try to avoid Norfair, Brinstar and BF. CP FD is a good choice. Maybe rainbow cruise.

 

[illinialex24]

Ohh I actually like BF in this matchup. For some reason. And Smashville.

 

[Chuee]

Lucas is a fu**** on the ground. If I played jiggly i probably CP something like RC were ground game sucks.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

SV is usually my standard stage anyway or FO, hows FO in this fight?

 

[Popertop]

Good for Jiggz.

Watch out for Lucas's priority, and plz don't get ***** by his up-b.

You generally shouldn't be getting spiked in this matchup, unless he reads you and sweetspot Bair's you.
You can DI up out of the Dair to avoid the spiking hitbox. This is how you avoid the Dair > Fsmash combo too.
You can also Tech it but I use that as a last resort, as it's easier to just hold up on the control stick than have to time a tech.

If he whiffs a Usmash or Grab, free stock.
I suggest punishing with Dsmash or Fsmash at low percents, or maybe a full rollout.
Depends on where you are on the stage.
Of course you know what to do at high percents.

Gimp lucas plz. gimp him hard.
pretty much all your aerials beat his Up-B, and if you are anywhere near him when he starts it, you can just infinite Bair into Fair at the blast zone. if he doesn't have his jump of course.

In short, Lucas is better on the stage, but the matchup basically hinges on how good the jiggz player is at getting them to the edge and off the stage.