Matchup discussion: King D3

[Coolwhip]

Hello mario boards!

I'm back with a new character matchup that we need to discuss.....King D3

Well, Let's begin.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

I don't think me and 2Fast have played this MU in forever because it's pretty bad (and this was WITHOUT the infinite) and he just doesn't like it. Also note, I'm not even a good Dedede.

Anyway, Bair > Mario, don't get grabbed, avoid Dedede's easy to avoid kill moves, and above all, cape Super Dedede Jump if we ever use it.

 

[Coolwhip]

What stages would be good for mario to take D3 on?

 

[Supreme Dirt]

If you're above 50% and Dedede grabs you, it's a stock for most players. LEARN TO MASH. You can increase your survivability to 100%+.

Basically stagewise you want a very large stage with platforms. Don't fool yourself into Castle Siege however, you will get ***** there. Also DO NOT GO TO RAINBOW CRUISE. You will regret it. A good option would be the Pokémon Stadiums, though know that most Dededes know them pretty well. It's going to be a very, very long match. If you can you should force the match to time if you have a lead. A lead is something that will be incredibly hard for you to get.

Norfair and Jungle Japes are also good stages. In general, any stage which forces Dedede into the air is good, with the exception of Rainbow Cruise. Just make sure you actually know the stage.

Your ban depends on your stagelist. On a conservative stagelist, FD is probably your ban. On a very large one, with 2 bans, You want to get rid of Green Greens, FD, or Onett, depending on just how crazy the stagelist is. You CANNOT beat a Dedede who knows the stage on Onett, so if for whatever reason it's legal make sure you ban it.

DAir is incredible on shield in this MU, as most of the time we won't have a full one. If you manage to surprise us with it, you can hit us with the grounded hitbox. This gets us into the air. YOU WANT US ABOVE YOU. You are Mario. You have exactly one thing which could be called "good". That is your air game. Juggling Dedede can be really easy, but watch out for a fastfall to grab.

Remember that a single grab at low %s means you take 43% (this is DThrowx4 -> BThrow). If you can't mash, and we have some space on the stage, we WILL CG you across the stage, throwing in pummels, to start the infinite.

Our BAir outranges everything you have, and beats out FSmash. Learn to respect it.

Have FLUDD charged at all times. Learn to space your aerials against Super Jump coming down.

This MU is incredibly, incredibly hard. I rate it at -4 for Mario, or 90:10 Dedede's favour, whichever system you're using. WITHOUT the infinite, I'd rate it as -4 for Mario, or 75:25 Dedede's favour.

Honestly, your best bet is to find a secondary.

 

[∫unk]

terrible matchup

gimp him with cape and camp with b-airs and fireballs (you have more mobility you can wait for ddd to commit then counterattack). edgeguard him hard or you're not going to win.

use lots of safe shield pressure. mix up your landings so it's harder to grab you. buffer everything when you touch the ground so you have a higher chance of escaping from DDD.

it's okay to get hit, not okay to get grabbed.

advantage ddd but don't worry about the numbers just focus on what you have to do in the matchup lol (never get grabbed)

 

[Coolwhip]

90:10 D3's favour?
Minus well have the mk vs. mario matchup "100:00" then....xD

But yeah, it's 73:25, D3's favour

 

[Flameleon]

-I can guarantee that i can beat any D3 out there with Mario, since i probably have the most exp against him, since i practiced the MU against one of the best and i must say that indeed, it's the most boring MU that you will be face, since if you want to win, you have to to what you don't have to do in others MU's. With Mk gone, this is the only true bad MU for Mario but, if you believe in the Uair string, you can have a chance, heh...-

 

[ducky98]

You guys are stupid, this matchup isn't that bad.

 

[∫unk]

-I can guarantee that i can beat any D3 out there with Mario, since i probably have the most exp against him, since i practiced the MU against one of the best-

who are you? and who'd you practice with?

you're stroking yourself in public for no reason, please put your e-peen away.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

His Mario is pretty damn legit <_<

 

[Kaptain]

More choices for stage would be those missing a grab-able ledge such as frigate or port town if its legal. Once you cape our super dedede jump, or only option is to release and go for the ledge, we can't if there is no ledge. On the other hand, stages with a passable bottom makes it easy for us to avoid your cape ask together. I'd rather give you a free hit than get gimped with cape. Also, be ready to cape our gordo, I for 1 never avoid it once reflected, specially if your close enough because of the moves lag. The impact of the cape will also stop the waddles like any hit would. Also, abuse that dair

 

[Coolwhip]

Oh, he's just a mario main from mexico....My mexican brother from an other mother. xD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ-oy5rlMkk

But umm...Let's stay on the topic of this thread ppl.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I have no idea what to do in this match-up when I'm on the ledge. Ftilt + Grab + RCO lag > Mario's options. It's such a terrible match-up ... +4 for DDD imo

 

[Matador]

Never had all that much trouble against D3, but then again, Coney is adamantly against using him vs me, even in friendlies.

Obviously, you want him in the air as much as possible. Dair is amazing, Utilt is amazing, Usmash is amazing, Dthrow is amazing, and Uair is amazing. Abuse them whenever you get inside his range. Spaced bairs are safe on shield unless D3 runs and P.shields or ftilts OOS (you should be able to react before this punish though). Try not to fall into the terrible habit of camping with fireballs...a D3 that runs in and p.shields will be able to grab you during ending lag. If you full hop fireball, D3 can p.shield and RAR a bair and possibly put you offstage.

A lot of this match-up has to do with understanding D3 and his options. Due to his size and speed, he's not capable of many crazy mix-ups, but he DOES have a small handful that are incredibly potent. Due to his weight and power, he's also allowed to make a lot more mistakes than you are.

He also beats everything we've got with bair while we're recovering. Our only option is charged Fludd, cape (not to stall, but to actually cape bair as it comes out. Not recommended), and abusing the invincibility on upB to beat bair. That's literally it. None of our aerials even trade with bair, and his multiple jumps + fallspeed give him many tries...and he only has to land one to successfully edgeguard you. Aside from the CG, this is the biggest threat.

Overall, that's it. Strike FD/SV, ban the walk-offs (Delfino or Siege), CP Brinstar, Lylat or BF for the aerial assistance, and don't be afraid to go for the time-out.

Edit: Actually, that's NOT it. There's more specific situations to address, but I can't get to it atm. I guess I'll post again later with more stuffs?

 

[2fast]

-I can guarantee that i can beat any D3 out there with Mario, since i probably have the most exp against him, since i practiced the MU against one of the best

I had to come in and say this. Flameleon, your a very well known and very good Mario main and I respect that but idk if you should be sayin that. I've played D3 A LOT and I live in the region with the best D3 in the country (Coney) and I highly doubt you could just come in and whoop him. I've played Coney and I don't think any Mario out there that I know of could defeat him right now cuz of how good of a player he is and how bad the MU is for Mario. Not trying to shoot any of us Mario's down, were all improving but it's just that bad.

80:20 D3s favor.
-4

I'll type up a post of what to do eventually since I'm alittle lazy right now lol.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Personally I'm of the opinion this is a worse MU for Mario than MK, btw. I only put MK:Mario at 80:20.

And lmao Flameleon, $100 MM at Apex? bo7, character-locked. Apex stagelist or Unity stagelist, your call.

 

[smokey da bear]

i would just switch to another character for this MU - this is absolute booty for mario

 

[Matador]

Personally I'm of the opinion this is a worse MU for Mario than MK, btw. I only put MK:Mario at 80:20.

And lmao Flameleon, $100 MM at Apex? bo7, character-locked.

No where near as bad, even with the infinite. D3 doesn't kill options as completely MK does. MK fundamentally beats Mario in many situations and has a ton of things that Mario has absolutely no answers for.

Also, lmfao...you'd lose money. In fact, I'd bet 100 on Flame if this were to take place.

 

[Coolwhip]

@ Supreme: I'm pretty sure he can backup on what he just said.
I mean, he do play against the best D3 in mexico.....Addy

@Smokey: No need to come in here with that post.
we marios are trying to get better in bad mu's

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What are you talking about, Mat? DDD is clearly harder for us than MK is, even without the infinite. I challenge anyone here to name me the options Mario has to deal with DDDs ledge-traps once you used your up-b. He can literally just stand there and not only punish our every option [virtually on reaction] but he can also reset the situation with all these punishes at the same time.

 

[Matador]

Just wondering if anyone's willing to argue in the Xat. Post videos of the match-up if you have 'em, and argue in real-time. Never tried it before, so I just wanna see how it'd go.

 

[2fast]

I agree with Gheb. Spaced moves are the only thing we have on D3 and a simple mispace can cause a chaingrab for D3 which gives us a pretty good chunk of damage even without infinite and it can also set up for a possible gimp on us. Fireballs arn't extremely helpful on D3 since his ftilt can go through them as well as waddle dees can just be tossed out there to block them.

I personally think MK is harder but D3 comes in a close second.

 

[Matador]

What are you talking about, Mat? DDD is clearly harder for us than MK is, even without the infinite. I challenge anyone here to name me the options Mario has to deal with DDDs ledge-traps once you used your up-b. He can literally just stand there and not only punish our every option [virtually on reaction] but he can also reset the situation with all these punishes at the same time.

Depends on the stage and our percentage. It's a bad spot, no doubt...and he has an answer for just about everything, but more than a few characters give us the same trouble on the ledge. Marth, Olimar, Diddy...it's a long list.

Do you think that he's any worse for us on the ledge than they are?

 

[∫unk]

can i see a video of flameleon fighting a good ddd? that ddd was terrible

who knew sh n-air is an option vs mario in a neutral state >_>

 

[Matador]

He'd have to link them, I dunno who would've uploaded those vids. It's likely some tourney vid channel for Mexico though.

Boss has a few vs Korn...

2Fast, you think you could upload some vs Yars since you guys play a lot? That'd be awesome if you could do that.

 

[ThatGuy]

Personally I'm of the opinion this is a worse MU for Mario than MK, btw. I only put MK:Mario at 80:20.

And lmao Flameleon, $100 MM at Apex? bo7, character-locked. Apex stagelist or Unity stagelist, your call.

I will MM you at the next Canadian tournament that we both attend. I don't have 100 bones, but I'm sure the amount won't matter if we both try to prove our points.

 

[Fire!]

Edit: Nvm, same match :/

 

[Matador]

As far as I can tell, Boss vs Korn is the best representation of the match-up.

I consider Korn a pretty decent Dedede, but there's also a few things Boss could've done better.

Korn edgeguards well most of the time, Boss combos and spaces like he should...They're just old.

 

[Coney]

Never had all that much trouble against D3, but then again, Coney is adamantly against using him vs me, even in friendlies.

yeah, i do that when the matchup is REALLY REALLY bad, because i feel like it's not fun for either player. this is one of those. i don't use ddd against noid (samus) or seagull (wolf) in friendlies either, just because it's not particularly fun for either of us

that said, matador used to ****ing BODY me in this matchup. if the ddd doesn't know what he's doing, you'll have the upper hand. if it's like, a secondary/pocket ddd or if he's not very good, you can prolly take him out, because chances are he won't know the infinite anyway if he tries to do so.

EDIT - btw, the one thing matador used to do that would get me back when i was bad: bait grab, space fsmash. matador is NOTORIOUS for empty sh>airdodge>REVERSE FSMASH OH YES and it would catch me every time and i'd die at like ~120% or something. if he's grab-happy, which lower-level ddds will be, find ways to bait and punish.

-I can guarantee that i can beat any D3 out there with Mario, since i probably have the most exp against him, since i practiced the MU against one of the best

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You're not supposed to shield-grab Mario's stuff =/

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I will MM you at the next Canadian tournament that we both attend. I don't have 100 bones, but I'm sure the amount won't matter if we both try to prove our points.

Hey if you can play serious in a not-MM that's fine.

Just no BS afterwards of "oh it was technically a friendly."

Though we can do like... $5.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

with the infinite I think this is probably Mario's worst MU but for some reason the D3 doesn't use the infinite (ruleset or their own pride w/e) MK is easily harder

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

He'd have to link them, I dunno who would've uploaded those vids. It's likely some tourney vid channel for Mexico though.

Boss has a few vs Korn...

2Fast, you think you could upload some vs Yars since you guys play a lot? That'd be awesome if you could do that.

We'll try to get some matches in the near future.

Also, DEAD AT CONEY'S PICTURE

Only reason I don't just have a recent one is because neither of us like playing the MU, haha. It's mad boring.

 

[Matador]

yeah, i do that when the matchup is REALLY REALLY bad, because i feel like it's not fun for either player. this is one of those. i don't use ddd against noid (samus) or seagull (wolf) in friendlies either, just because it's not particularly fun for either of us

that said, matador used to ****ing BODY me in this matchup. if the ddd doesn't know what he's doing, you'll have the upper hand. if it's like, a secondary/pocket ddd or if he's not very good, you can prolly take him out, because chances are he won't know the infinite anyway if he tries to do so.

EDIT - btw, the one thing matador used to do that would get me back when i was bad: bait grab, space fsmash. matador is NOTORIOUS for empty sh>airdodge>REVERSE FSMASH OH YES and it would catch me every time and i'd die at like ~120% or something. if he's grab-happy, which lower-level ddds will be, find ways to bait and punish.

Lol, Zak with the clutch gif, tho, lol.

The only D3s I've played in tourney were pocket D3s (ESOJ at Brawl til you Fall and EE at a random C3). ESOJ ***** me, but I was kinda bad. I was still stubborn about playing all aggro and ended up spacing **** badly on his shield. Boss came up right behind me (he was in the same pool) and beat him with Mario though, so lesson learned.

I still feel like I only lost to EE because the infinite was on and I didn't know how to do the Kprime mash. Even then, it was relatively close and went to game 3 (beat him on YI). Still, he wasn't that great of a D3 back then, no offense to him of course.

I haven't played your D3 since you've gotten amazing, so I can only judge off of random pocket D3s I face and "pros" on wifi. Whenever I see you again (prolly your next tourney), I'd like to friendly your D3...just to get an idea.

As it stands, I think that match-up is 65:35 at worst. I think he's probably hardest behind MK.

Edit: 'Preciate it, Yars.

 

[Flameleon]

-Haha, it's so much fun happening around here, but i have to say one thing, if a DK CAN actually beat a D3, we for sure can, after all, we are the ONLY character that can gimp D3's UpB without any risk, and if anyone has doubts about it, i'll try to get some matches soon of this MU, also, for all those D3's out there, this match is for sure in your favour, but, don't get too confident, since most of the D3's metagame is just plain and focused in one thing and that was the main reason that they couldn't handle Mk's, at that point, D3 and Mario are somewhat the same, but against each other, it's a different thing...-

P.D: i would for sure have a mm against any D3, but i would've only pay something big if it were against M2k, because one of my goals was to beat him and prove it, but it looks like than that will not be possible.

 

[Coney]

-Haha, it's so much fun happening around here, but i have to say one thing, if a DK CAN actually beat a D3, we for sure can, after all, we are the ONLY character that can gimp D3's UpB without any risk, and if anyone has doubts about it, i'll try to get some matches soon of this MU, also, for all those D3's out there, this match is for sure in your favour, but, don't get too confident, since most of the D3's metagame is just plain and focused in one thing and that was the main reason that they couldn't handle Mk's, at that point, D3 and Mario are somewhat the same, but against each other, it's a different thing...-

i agree with this

but the thing is, dks can beat ddds because dk punishes--hard. mario can't really punish all that effectively. dk takes away ddd's survivability and puts him in ****ty situations of RPS where if he chooses incorrectly, he dies at ~100%. mario...can't really punish like that. he's a series of small punishes instead of one ****ing HUGE one

i definitely think a smart mario will beat an average ddd but two players of the highest calibur...it really is awful.

@ kyle - but of course, we'll play soon

 

[Coolwhip]

can i see a video of flameleon fighting a good ddd? that ddd was terrible

who knew sh n-air is an option vs mario in a neutral state >_>

Lookup flameleon vs. addy...
It's old, but, it's still pretty good

 

[HeroMystic]

I've said this a long time ago, but I'll say it again since it seems to lack in this thread.

Chaingrab is the only MU I would strongly suggest using a secondary for. Even MK I would kinda sorta say "Well Mario can kinda weasel his way out of it with fireballs", but if you're playing a top-level Chaingrab who doesn't give a **** about your feelings and want his money, you need to play it smart here. Mario is just incapable of winning this match on his own.

80:20 sounds very valid, but it hardly shows because Chaingrab is mostly used as a pocket character and therefore is used poorly, which a Mario can roflstomp.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

This thread is stupid other than some of the talk about how DDD isn't that bad.

Because he's totally not. Mario players just need to get better and not get grabbed. It's still a disadvantage, but NOT BECAUSE OF HIS GRABS.

Seriously it might be our 4th or 5th worst matchup, but it's not even that bad.

 

[2fast]

Mario players just need to get better and not get grabbed.

That's not a really valid point in a MU discussion, that's just the player being smart and not getting grabbed. It's a disadvantage cuz if you do get grabbed you take a heavy chunk of damage as well and if infinite is being done the D3 can just infinite us to like 200% and cg us to the edge and than f-throw us to death.

The MU takes expert spacing, as well as D3 outranges us, kills us early, takes out our fireballs, and he can gimp us fairly well. We also don't kill D3 till atleast like 170% unless we gimp him with the cape.

Most D3s people face are lower level D3s and not really a problem but that rare chance you fight a very high level D3 who knows the Mario MU and doesn't care about infiniting, winning will be near impossible.