Matchup discussion: King D3

[smokey da bear]

You guys will see how the MU is. I get beat pretty badly by Yars. I'm probably not the best to go to about the D3 MU though as I know what to do on paper but when playing I just can't space properly vs D3 as Mario since I only play Snake for that MU since it's much easier to work with than Mario. Me and Yars literally haven't played Mario vs D3 in months, I don't even find it enjoyable to play that MU.

My opinion, if the D3 knows what to do against the Mario like Yars does since even though I don't play Mario vs D3 he's played my Mario many other times in different MUs so he knows Mario very well and is no joke when it comes to fighting Mario. Mario vs D3 I believe sucks horrible.

this MU is complete booty - i suggest switching to another character

 

[Matador]

Hmm Mario Dedede not being fun.

I wonder why that would be.

I don't know a single Wario that would come close to calling the D3 match-up "fun"...and they've got it a lot better than we do.

D3 is just infuriating to fight if you lack disjoints and he can CG you.

 

[Coolwhip]

Alright fellas.....This matchup talk is officially over.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't think this matchup is as terrible as everyone is making it out to be, but it's boring as hell and not a matchup you actually want to play. You're better off picking Luigi, who I personally think probably beats DDD (yes, factoring the infinite, or whatever DDD's standing chaingrab is called) just since DDD kinda loses to specific things given how polarized his strategy is.

You have the tools to outfootsie King DDD given you're a much smaller target and have more mobility options, so as long as you're willing to take forever and never do anything that he can easily punish with a kill move (avoiding all of his kill moves individually is quite easy. Trick is always remembering to avoid each one), you have a chance of just gradually poking him to death until you have an opportunity to edgeguard him in a way that kills him.

You really only can't win this matchup on FD, where there is nowhere to platform camp to reset your spacing. Fullhop spacing is extremely good in this matchup and difficult for DDD to punish.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

This message is hidden because A2ZOMG is on your ignore list.

That is all.

 

[HeroMystic]

You really only can't win this matchup on FD, where there is nowhere to platform camp to reset your spacing. Fullhop spacing is extremely good in this matchup and difficult for DDD to punish.

I can agree with this as I tend to use this myself.

 

[Kanzaki]

That is all.

This guy wins.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Fullhop spacing is extremely good in this matchup and difficult for DDD to punish.

Fullhop spacing? Please, I'm curious what Mario's going to do that Bair won't cut clean through.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Obviously fireballs.

Oh nope, because Mario's heavily overrate their fireballs apparently.

Obviously DTilit. Because Mario needs to full-hop it for some reason...?

Other than that I really have no idea.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Fullhop spacing? Please, I'm curious what Mario's going to do that Bair won't cut clean through.

Firstoff you have to be facing backwards to B-air. And that isn't something you're always going to be doing as DDD, given you're supposed to be trying to grab at some point.

Secondly, Mario can U-smash through B-air or whiff punishing is totally viable given DDD's low horizontal mobility. D-air is slightly harder for Mario to punish, although on block he can U-air it. Also if you're doing rising B-airs, I can duck. In fact ducking can be used to create powershield punish opportunities.

The only time I wouldn't consider hit and run viable is on FD, since you need platforms to reset your spacing in this matchup.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Because turning around is such a meticulously difficult input, with RARing, and such.

Because full-hopped USmashes exist.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Because turning around is such a meticulously difficult input, with RARing, and such.

Because full-hopped USmashes exist.

Turning around essentially makes a 7 frame difference when we talk about the importance of blocking during footsies. It's non trivial to turn around when playing spacing games since you cannot turn around or grab while in the air or while blocking. If DDD is facing forward and I just fullhop B-air, either he gets hit, or he HAS TO BLOCK with little chance of punishing. Chances are he probably is facing forward if he's trying to approach a Mario that is trying to make the game last forever.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Yes, but if I'm approaching, that means you have the lead.

Something which probably won't be happening very often.

I really don't see how Mario will ever have the lead in this MU in the first place.

Waddles aren't exactly the most trivial of things when Mario is camping. After all, it is an unreflectable projectile that blocks other projectiles. And the constant possibility of a gordo, though I will give Mario that it is pretty easy to cape one on reaction.

 

[Matador]

This thread gives me a headache...

Apex couldn't come sooner.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Terrible theorycrafting. DDD doesn't have to [and really shouldn't] shield a lot, especially when Mario's getting in close. I think the discussion between Yars and 2fast pretty much sums it up: even though Mario can come close to beat DDD at times it's still a terrible match-up. If you lose 10 close matches out of 10 you've still lost all of them meaning the match-up is virtually impossible.

This is -4 and nothing else.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Thank you Gheb. God, I even have A2 on ignore and he STILL pulls me in with his theorycrafting.

 

[Coolwhip]

I guess this mu talk isnt over......yet. The more, the better, i guess.

 

[HeroMystic]

Fullhop spacing? Please, I'm curious what Mario's going to do that Bair won't cut clean through.

Vertical Spacing basically. It doesn't stop DDD's B-air but it does stop DDD from being comfortable with his ground game, and you can avoid getting grabbed with it.

Not saying it makes it any easier for Mario though. The MU is like Sarah Palin trying to run for president.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Mario's need to go Sonic the Hedgehog status and run away the ENTRE game. Hit him with one fireball and time that fatlard out.

 

[Matador]

If any Mario is doing anything other than that, they're playing the match-up incorrectly. One of the things that D3 isn't that amazing at is approaching...

So abuse it.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Vertical Spacing basically. It doesn't stop DDD's B-air but it does stop DDD from being comfortable with his ground game

No, it doesn't.

If you center your play around not getting grabbed you get ***** on the ledge and upon landing. If you center your play around not getting trapped on the ledge and upon landing you'll get grabbed. You can only have one or the other but you end up getting ***** either way.

 

[HeroMystic]

No, it doesn't.

If you center your play around not getting grabbed you get ***** on the ledge and upon landing. If you center your play around not getting trapped on the ledge and upon landing you'll get grabbed. You can only have one or the other but you end up getting ***** either way.

This is too simplified.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Me and 2Fast will be playing the matchup again and he thinks his Mario's more up to pace now.

 

[Matador]

Did you ever post the vids from your most recent set with him?

I definitely wanna see those.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Matches:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4rDQs9HZac
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3AT8Gt9Scw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2nF9QWX0QY

Final notes about video and opinion of matchup:

-Mario loses because of Chaingrab and Dedede living forever, pretty much every trade that isn't a kill is good for Dedede.
-Best bet for a CP for you guys is basically a stage the Dedede isn't comfortable on or something. You'll want platforms. With a good CP, Mario MIGHT WIN IF THE PLANETS ALIGN
-To ban...Dedede has a bunch of a good stages to take Mario to. FD, Pokemon Stadium 1+2, Delfino, Smashville...So yeah.
-In the matches, I'm sure there's parts where both of us could have played better, but by the end of the day, a scrub Dedede is beating a good Mario player. Just hope the Dedede doesn't know Mario at all and it's just a ****ty pocket, or you're in for some trouble.

 

[smokey da bear]

Matches:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4rDQs9HZac
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3AT8Gt9Scw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2nF9QWX0QY

Final notes about video and opinion of matchup:

-Mario loses because of Chaingrab and Dedede living forever, pretty much every trade that isn't a kill is good for Dedede.
-Best bet for a CP for you guys is basically a stage the Dedede isn't comfortable on or something. You'll want platforms. With a good CP, Mario MIGHT WIN IF THE PLANETS ALIGN
-To ban...Dedede has a bunch of a good stages to take Mario to. FD, Pokemon Stadium 1+2, Delfino, Smashville...So yeah.
-In the matches, I'm sure there's parts where both of us could have played better, but by the end of the day, a scrub Dedede is beating a good Mario player. Just hope the Dedede doesn't know Mario at all and it's just a ****ty pocket, or you're in for some trouble.

mario spacing too good

 

[Matador]

Awesome, thanks dude.

They won't buffer for me, but w/e.

Edit: 2Fast plays this match-up extremely well, lol. His use of upB would make Xero proud.

Edit 2: Did you guys just play one set? Is this how it usually goes? These matches made it look even, lol. 2Fast missed every gimp opportunity too. Had he managed them, it would've been even better looking for Mario.

 

[2fast]

Edit: 2Fast plays this match-up extremely well, lol. His use of upB would make Xero proud.

Edit 2: Did you guys just play one set? Is this how it usually goes? These matches made it look even, lol. 2Fast missed every gimp opportunity too. Had he managed them, it would've been even better looking for Mario.

Not gonna lie, I honestly used to gimp Yars here, ALOT. Yars though has gotten smart with his recoveries cuz the cape is something to fear with a D3. Set wise we played a couple more matches but we decided to just upload a set on what I feel was one of the worst stages Mario could be taken to which is Frigate and a good stage which I'm extremely comfortable on like Yoshis. Forced recovery with no edge leaves things like the rocket hammer hitting Marios face and there's no stopping it on Frigate.

My final notes on the D3 MU would be that playing it takes a butt load of perfect spacing, ALL THE TIME, one mistake and you will take a ton of damage. I also noticed I play the MU completely different from Flameleon when it comes down to D3. I'll still stick to Snake for D3 though, it's a much easier time.

@Yars no, stop saying your a scrub D3. If you go to some more tourneys and learn some more MUs, you'll be placing in no time.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

We played like 3 or so more matches than those, and I think YI was the only match 2Fast won.

And just know, in all of the matches, I wasn't really WORRIED about dying/losing ever. Whereas against a higher tier character I start to get kinda scared/worried/sort of chill out.

I'm also a bad Dedede, so yeah.

THAT NINJA EDIT THOUGH

 

[Matador]

Either way, I appreciate the help, Yars/2Fast. It's rare that someone actually steps up to the plate and produces video evidence, but you guys got that shiz done.

 

[smokey da bear]

I'm also a bad Dedede, so yeah.

THAT NINJA EDIT THOUGH

you salt on yourself more than we salt you wtf man

 

[Flameleon]

-@2fast: man, you're doing it wrong xD

But yeah, at a high level, a D3 will beat a Mario most of the times. What i can only hope is that the Marios are more dedicated to their main than the D3's, then, there would be some hope for us, Marios...but since this must be true for us, it's alright hehe...-

 

[Coolwhip]

@Yars: Thanks for posting the videos for the matchup! (-_^)b

to everyone: Thank you all for being huge contributors to this thread.
This thread is a big success.

 

[HeroMystic]

2Fast, that's some of the best fireball control I've seen.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

-@2fast: man, you're doing it wrong xD

But yeah, at a high level, a D3 will beat a Mario most of the times. What i can only hope is that the Marios are more dedicated to their main than the D3's, then, there would be some hope for us, Marios...but since this must be true for us, it's alright hehe...-

Hehe, people who assume every Dedede is but a secondary.

I go 100% Dedede in tourney. Always.

Spoiler

Except when I get sick of fighting MK every other game and switch to Yoshi for a bit

 

[Flameleon]

-@Supreme dirt: not like a secondary, i was assuming that the way that a Mario develops their metagame vs the way that the D3's do it is what could make the difference...and, even if my enemy uses a secondary or not, i don't really care, i just have to play like i always do, in order to be victorious...-

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Well, the general development as a player for a Dedede main that I see tends to be like this...

The person most likely knows about the CG, and this is most likely what draws them to Dedede. Who doesn't like making someone feel helpless, and getting such a large reward. BAir is generally the other major thing, and at some point during ths stage they'll inevitably discover DTilt.

The next thing most people work in is either Waddles, or tilts. Tilts generally come first when they play a lot of non-CG-able characters, waddles just come at some point.

Next tends to be the realization that once your opponent wises up to your grab game, you need to use your other tools far more and far better. imo this is basically the barrier between low and mid-level Dedede, when the entire focus of your game stops being grabs, and you realize that what you're really trying to do is keep your opponent out.This is generally where a good Dedede begins to distinguish himself. Your personal playstyle as a Dedede generally begins to appear here. For example, the way I play my Dedede is don't approach at any cost. It's part of why I'm so bad against Falco.


Part way through typing this I began to wonder where I was going with it but decided to go through with it anyways, lol. How do Marios tend to go about developing? I know for me I came from playing Luigi, so that heavily impacted how I went about Mario-ing.

 

[HeroMystic]

Well for the most part, the people who are attracted to Mario are going to play him because he is their favorite character. In more statistical terms though, it's going to be because of the Cape.

I personally played Mario all the way from SSB64 to now, but I've embarrassingly never learned of the Cape potential until Brawl. What'll separate a good Mario from a bad one is how much they realize that Mario's gimping abilities cannot be relied upon. At that point it's all about learning his moveset and how to use it to gain technical advantages.

I've always believed however what separates a good Mario from a great one is quite simply experience. This should sound obvious for many characters but I believe it's twofold for Mario. Due to being a terribly balanced character and Brawl having a piss-easy method to not get gimped for just about any character, Mario has no obvious exploits to use against characters. Say what you will about Jigglypuff, at least she has Drill Rest. Ganon has absurd damaging attacks and Link has Walling and range. Mario at best has a projectile for range, approach, and walling, but it doesn't excel at any of them. He can make attack strings, but only when he's at a character's blindspot. He can gimp, but it takes a good amount of effort against anyone worth fighting against. Learning MUs and having experience is absolutely vital when playing as Mario.

It's during this point you start to have a general consensus on how to play Mario and begin to stylize yourself, and just adjust accordingly per match-up.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Id say from watching that set that my opinion of the D3 v. Mario MU is +3 D3. It looks stupid hard, but I think if the Mario plays really well and knows the MU, they can pull a win, just its really hard, so I wouldnt say its an unwinnable -4.

 

[T25XL]

this was hilarious, I was fighting a ddd, and he had a very big lead, and then I made him suicide, and then I messd him up again by going off the platform and edgeguarding and then he used his up+b and I caped him and it was already even, so then I locked him in a bunch of Uairs and got the kill with a spike, it was hilarious, I didn't save the replay tho, sad