Matchup discussion: King D3

[MysteryRevengerson]

**** happened and we couldn't play, sorry everyone. One of us will post when we eventually do get matches though.

 

[Kanzaki]

Zekey vs. Flame I'd like to see :]

Money on Zekey.

 

[Coolwhip]

No faith in flame's mario huh?

 

[Inferno3044]

No faith in flame's mario huh?

Not against a good D3 that knows the MU. As I said if he faced Atomsk or Coney I would definitely sidebet on them. It's not that flame is bad. Just that MU is awful.

 

[Matador]

I'd have Atomsk or Coney over Flame only cuz they're both phenomenal players.

Flame would give em so go, definitely. The match-up isn't good tho, and he'd already have to deal with their mindgames, mix-ups, and good execution. Odds are stacked.

I personally don't see him or myself even losing to a pocket or non-pro D3 main. He's such an exploitable character, lol.

 

[Inferno3044]

I understand beating a pocket D3 that's bad but that proves nothing. I could probably beat a pocket D3 as well. I've also beaten MKs and marths in tourney. Doesn't mean anything.

 

[Kanzaki]

I have more faith in "notable" D3's

 

[Luigisama]

Camp hard with fireballs and play really gay. up tilt up tilt upsmash up b is ****. But my mario is weird.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Hehehehe, pocket Dededes are so easy to stomp. So yeah, if you guys want to base the MU off those, I'd actually put this at even. Since pockets tend to know nothing of the character outside of UTilt kills, DTilt edgeguards, BAir is good and CG exists.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

This conversation makes it feel like the metagame is regressing lol

Who would has a pocket D3 anyways?

 

[Jet300]

Mario vs King D3 -4.
What BC4629 said, Camp hard with your fire balls
and play really gay. Other wise you can't pretty much win against D3 with mario.
Use your secondary against this guy. Never fight D3 with mario.

 

[Matador]

Wow, guys. Think about it. What do you think a -4 match-up entails? It's reasonable for a good Mario to lose to a pocket MK cuz that's how incredibly bad the match-up is. There are multiple things MK can do in the match-up that Mario has no answers for, and he gimps the **** out of us.

D3 is nowhere near that, even with the "infinite". Marth is prolly closer to that difficulty. Of course you have to take pocket D3s into account...the majority of D3s that you'll ever face in tourney will be pocket D3s since there's only a few true mains of the character. Being able to beat one proves plenty.

And what d'you mean "who has a pocket D3 anyways?" He has the most hot-cold match-ups in the game. He ***** like...ALL of EVERYONE outside of high tier considerably hard. He's not technically taxing as far as inputs and executions go, has amazing stage CPs, and an easy as **** infinite on a small chunk of the cast. He's the definition of a pocket character.

 

[Coolwhip]

Who are you....@ jet300?
Didn't knew they had smashers in tennessee.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Think about it. What do you think a -4 match-up entails? It's reasonable for a good Mario to lose to a pocket MK cuz that's how incredibly bad the match-up is. There are multiple things MK can do in the match-up that Mario has no answers for, and he gimps the **** out of us.

D3 is nowhere near that, even with the "infinite". Marth is prolly closer to that difficulty.

Mario vs DDD is pretty much the definition of a -4 match-up <_<
MK has multiple things that Mario has no answers for? I'm curious to hear what you're thinking about when you say that. DDD has plenty of things Mario has no answers for either [MUCH more so than Marth who is frankly not that difficult at all] and DDD also gimps us just the same so I really don't understand how anybody could see that big a difference.

 

[ThatGuy]

Mario vs DDD is pretty much the definition of a -4 match-up <_<
MK has multiple things that Mario has no answers for? I'm curious to hear what you're thinking about when you say that. DDD has plenty of things Mario has no answers for either [MUCH more so than Marth who is frankly not that difficult at all] and DDD also gimps us just the same so I really don't understand how anybody could see that big a difference.

Maybe I can take the reins for this one. It's quite a ramble so good luck.

Mario has no answer for Metaknight's UpB. The rest of the options Mario has answers for, but they are so specific that unless you guess right every time, with perfect timing, MK will beat you out.

Examples:

-Nado: I listed a bunch of solutions in another thread, but they all need time and angles to set up on reflex, or a hard read when you know they're going to nado (like literally as soon as they're going to start it). Otherwise everything you do gets beaten by it.

-Ftilt: Can be punished if you roll behind as they start the move. Can be punished OOS if they space improperly (most intelligent mk's will walk up and ftilt, however). If the roll is too early, they can halt the ftilt and punish on reflex. If it's too late, they can...punish on reflex. It's a tight window. If you hold shield, they continue 1-hit ftilts until something happens. Sidestep gets hit by the ftilt. You could 'fight' this by using fireballs to punish the mk who is setting up spacing for an ftilt, ofc they can nado through this but that's another story.

-Dtilt: somewhat similar to ftilt, has a bit less range I think, regardless it moves mk closer so spacing devolves over time to the point where you can punish OOS. Ofc he's wrecking your shield, has poking potential, so if your shield isn't fresh you're in for a rough time.

Dash attack/dash grab: Great mixup options, both have huge acceleration so the window for them to punish on reflex is a good distance away from Mario. Dash grab is a great mixup after ftilt/dtilt so if you don't predict exactly when the dashgrab comes and roll/sidestep/punish OOS in time you will get grabbed. Dash attack beats a lot of moves, if you know it's coming you can pivot grab it, looks really fancy.

Dair camping isn't so bad, throw out UpB's to catch in between or fake UpB and jump->punish airdodge. You can fireball trap when he has to come down and then you have to guess the correct punish: shield the aerial and punish the landing lag, Usmash the tornado, or attack right away if he doesn't try to deter the fireball (this is an option! He could do anything right after getting hit).

Still, I've listed a lot of specific timing windows for MK's options. Missing these windows means MK wins the situation. I don't find as many difficult situations in the Mario vs DDD matchup, but perhaps providing a somewhat similar analysis would prove beneficial.

 

[Jet300]

Who are you....@ jet300?
Didn't knew they had smashers in tennessee.

They do have smasher in TN it's just most people suck at this game .

 

[Matador]

Mario vs DDD is pretty much the definition of a -4 match-up <_<
MK has multiple things that Mario has no answers for? I'm curious to hear what you're thinking about when you say that. DDD has plenty of things Mario has no answers for either [MUCH more so than Marth who is frankly not that difficult at all] and DDD also gimps us just the same so I really don't understand how anybody could see that big a difference.

I disagree.

We have CLEAR advantages vs D3. We can put him in pretty bad situations and have options for just about everything outside of getting up from the ledge. Even then, D3 can't safely chase us offstage from the ledge, so you can stall as long as you need to in order to work your way onstage without getting grabbed or something.

Our dair gives us legitimate safe shield pressure, platform pressure, and covers landings because of his huge frame. We can gimp him reliably if he's forced to recover low and upB, which is reasonable if you can kill jumps with fireballs or catch him with bad DI. From long range, full hopped fireballs are pretty safe.

The only reason D3 beats Mario is because of the HEAVILY lopsided RPS game that we have to play. One mistake = 30+ percent and an edgeguard opportunity. He kills us rather early. We kill him SUPER late. It isn't a matter of option vs option that makes it bad.

MK has things that he can do that we have ABSOLUTELY no answers for. For example, if he spaces Dtilt on our shield, we can't do ****. We can't do anything OOS, can't jump away, can't roll away, can't even continue shielding. If he chooses to switch between dtilt -> Dsmash and Dtilt -> dash grab, all options are covered with little risk to him.

Another example, MK's uair frame traps when we're above him. We aren't one of the few characters that can deal with that. We're weak from below, have average fallspeed/airspeed/airdodge, and have trixies to help us land safely. If he decides to try to set up the uair frame trap, we can only hope that he ****s up.

There's like a trillion more reliable situations that MK can put us into that we can't do **** about. Marth has a few...even Falco has a few. Snake has none. ICs have none. D3 has none.

They're just ********.

 

[Zekeishere]

I'll mm any mario except tearbears with no chain grabs!

 

[Supreme Dirt]

You are above Dedede. How do you land?

Legitimate question. I've never really had a Mario safely land against me.

 

[SKidd]

Cape as I come down to you and do something smart i dunno




Or go for the ledge

 

[HeroMystic]

You are above Dedede. How do you land?

-Cape Stall
-Float away from DDD
-Wavebounce Fireball (legit)

Mario sucks when he's above anyone though, so that's a bit of an unfair question.

 

[MP8]

Aside from a cape stall and a pivot fireball wavebounce (whatever its called), I was going to suggest the release of a fully charged FLUDD to push Mario away. That could also push DDD away from you as well if you time it right or the DDD is in such a position.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

-Cape Stall
-Float away from DDD
-Wavebounce Fireball (legit)

Mario sucks when he's above anyone though, so that's a bit of an unfair question.

Not really unfair, lol. I am actually picking up Mario myself, so it is kinda good for me to know. That said Dedede is always pretty weak in the air too.

Aside from a cape stall and a pivot fireball wavebounce (whatever its called), I was going to suggest the release of a fully charged FLUDD to push Mario away. That could also push DDD away from you as well if you time it right or the DDD is in such a position.

Hmmmm... I've always like FLUDD shenanigans.

 

[HeroMystic]

Aside from a cape stall and a pivot fireball wavebounce (whatever its called), I was going to suggest the release of a fully charged FLUDD to push Mario away. That could also push DDD away from you as well if you time it right or the DDD is in such a position.

For being right above Dedede though? I wouldn't say it's worth it.

 

[MP8]

For being right above Dedede though? I wouldn't say it's worth it.

Well, a pivot fireball wavebounce doesn't cover much ground either. Plus, timing for it to work is more strict too so if you input the button wrong and don't change momentum, you're caught. That seems more like a bigger risk to take. I don't see the difference in DDD cutting you off here from a FLUDD shot honestly. Elaborate on it if you desire, please.

I did say if the positioning is right but really, the FLUDD could be a good mix-up instead of the usual float away/cape stall tactic. There's the possiblility of the DDD getting caught in the shot as well, which would give him decent push back and with the addition of the push back you'd receive, to help ensure a safe landing. Of course, it should properly be incorperated only if the FLUDD is fully charged. With how limited/predictable Mario is in the air, I don't see the point in shooting down a possible landing option right away. Use whatever you can until you can find a break through.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Me and 2Fast will be playing matches next Saturday if anyone still cares.

Get hype?

 

[Matador]

NEXT? As in, a week from now?

Cuz that's mad far away.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Yeah I know, but we can't get in any matches up until then.

We don't exactly live right next to each other.

Sorry.

 

[HeroMystic]

Well, a pivot fireball wavebounce doesn't cover much ground either. Plus, timing for it to work is more strict too so if you input the button wrong and don't change momentum, you're caught. That seems more like a bigger risk to take. I don't see the difference in DDD cutting you off here from a FLUDD shot honestly. Elaborate on it if you desire, please.

I did say if the positioning is right but really, the FLUDD could be a good mix-up instead of the usual float away/cape stall tactic. There's the possiblility of the DDD getting caught in the shot as well, which would give him decent push back and with the addition of the push back you'd receive, to help ensure a safe landing. Of course, it should properly be incorperated only if the FLUDD is fully charged. With how limited/predictable Mario is in the air, I don't see the point in shooting down a possible landing option right away. Use whatever you can until you can find a break through.

Wavebounce Fireball is easy. Practice it while allowing yourself to be knocked around by the CPU to account for situation. Difficulty is a non-issue.

The problem with using FLUDD while being above your opponent is no sensible opponent is going to be a position where hitting one with FLUDD is going to matter, and this would go double with DDD. Most Dededes will stay grounded vs doing a SH U-air or SH F-air or even a SH-Bair, and FLUDD shines against aerial opponents, not grounded opponents. This is why it's so good against floaty characters such as Luigi.

What using FLUDD from above will do "if positioned correctly" is provide a wall between Mario and the opponent, but it really depends on the opponent itself when it comes to that. If I remembe right, FLUDD actually doesn't stop Waddle Dees or Gordos, and there is a lot of frame usage when using FLUDD, which can guarantee you being hit.

I'm not going to say it's not an option but you have to use it when you know it'll help.

 

[Matador]

Yeah I know, but we can't get in any matches up until then.

We don't exactly live right next to each other.

Sorry.

Ohhhhh, I see. I was under the impression that you guys lived close.

Whenever you can do it is cool. 2Fast is mad good, so if he loses to your D3 a lot, I'm sure he's not neglecting options or anything. I'm having a really hard time seeing this match-up as -4.

 

[Coolwhip]

As soon we get videos of 2fast vs. Vars, i'll be moving on with a brand new character mu.
Seems like we're far from done talking about this one.

 

[Matador]

I doubt I'll ever agree to this match-up being THAT bad for Mario. It sucks but...

I mean, winning is still feasible. I saw Famous fight iLove, who's this awesome D3 from...I can't recall.

He did really well against him, and that was tourney.

 

[MP8]

Wavebounce Fireball is easy. Practice it while allowing yourself to be knocked around by the CPU to account for situation. Difficulty is a non-issue.

The problem with using FLUDD while being above your opponent is no sensible opponent is going to be a position where hitting one with FLUDD is going to matter, and this would go double with DDD. Most Dededes will stay grounded vs doing a SH U-air or SH F-air or even a SH-Bair, and FLUDD shines against aerial opponents, not grounded opponents. This is why it's so good against floaty characters such as Luigi.

What using FLUDD from above will do "if positioned correctly" is provide a wall between Mario and the opponent, but it really depends on the opponent itself when it comes to that. If I remembe right, FLUDD actually doesn't stop Waddle Dees or Gordos, and there is a lot of frame usage when using FLUDD, which can guarantee you being hit.

I'm not going to say it's not an option but you have to use it when you know it'll help.

Yes but the wavebounce fireball leaves more room for error. All I'm saying is that its easier to screw up. It doesn't cover that much distance. If a DDD see that you'll wavebounce opposite of your momentum, I don't see what's stopping the DDD from cutting off and grabbing you. It could possibly work the first couple times but its not hard to read if expected.

Even if a competent opponent is not likely to be caught in that situation, the lack of noticable difference between how much ground is covered from the wavebounce to FLUDD still stands. If your opponent is highly sensible, then landing altogether is futile. I'm just saying thay its good to add a little more to the mix.

The objective is to land saftely without getting grabbed or hit offstage, resulting in a possible stock. How much FLUDD pushes the opponent away really doesn't matter. But a fully charged FLUDD at least ceases a DDD's movement on the ground, (even better if they accidently did a short hop but unlikely) I don't see how this can be a problem. It would give you some extra space and time to land and fall back. Yes, the wall as you put it. If the opponent comes to that himself? What can he do? He's not progressing. Waddledees, those are better than getting grabbed. Idk about Gordos but are you sure about waddles not being effected by FLUDD?

Don't think I mean for a FLUDD shot to happen everytime you're in the air. It should be fully charged and used sparingly. If a DDD is reading all of your other options and you can't catch a break, maybe trying something different and simple will suffice. Mix it up with cape stalls, etc. Its worth a try, don't shoot it down until its been legitamately tested and disproved. You're trying to land, not push the DDD across/off the stage.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

has there even been like a consensus on how bad the MU is ? (-1,-2,-3,-4 etc.) wise?

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I'm pretty sure we can all agree it's at least -2. But other than that not really.

 

[Matador]

Yes but the wavebounce fireball leaves more room for error. All I'm saying is that its easier to screw up. It doesn't cover that much distance. If a DDD see that you'll wavebounce opposite of your momentum, I don't see what's stopping the DDD from cutting off and grabbing you. It could possibly work the first couple times but its not hard to read if expected.

What's stopping the D3 is the fact that he's not supposed to expect the wavebounce. The most attractive thing about wavebouncing for any character is the surprise factor and the speed of it. On top of that, D3 can't really pressure us in the air...he thrives off of waiting for us to land and punishing.

If he's not already in position to grab or utilt or whatever, he won't be able to do it, especially if there are platforms. If he's expecting it, you're using it too much. Same with any other option in this game.

Even if a competent opponent is not likely to be caught in that situation, the lack of noticable difference between how much ground is covered from the wavebounce to FLUDD still stands. If your opponent is highly sensible, then landing altogether is futile. I'm just saying thay its good to add a little more to the mix.

It's always good to have an additional option, but Fludding and wavebouncing to protect your landing are more different than you're letting on.

Keep in mind, if you Fludd, that's it. You're Fludding until you get to the ground or, close enough to the ground that D3 can nab you. He has PLENTY of time to do this too...you discharge a full tank of Fludd for like...a second and a half. That's enough time for this D3 to realize "hey, he can't do anything else while he's Fludding" and waddle over there to punish. Even if he doesn't grab you or hit you immediately when you land, he'll be close enough to keep pressure on you, which is almost as bad.

With wavebouncing, you regain control of Mario much faster, and could easily do it again to continue the mix-up, airdodge, jump again, capestall...you get the picture.

Both wavebouncing and Fludding cover a decent amount of space, but the issue isn't which covers more; like you said, the difference is negligible. It's a matter of which option will get you from above D3 safest. Most times, it'll probably be wavebouncing since you can move again so quickly. That's not to say that you should NEVER use Fludd...because it's STILL an option. There will be times where Fludd is better...namely times where you've already used wavebouncing a few times and you suspect that the D3 has caught on to your wavebouncing pattern.

The objective is to land saftely without getting grabbed or hit offstage, resulting in a possible stock. How much FLUDD pushes the opponent away really doesn't matter. But a fully charged FLUDD at least ceases a DDD's movement on the ground, (even better if they accidently did a short hop but unlikely) I don't see how this can be a problem. It would give you some extra space and time to land and fall back. Yes, the wall as you put it. If the opponent comes to that himself? What can he do? He's not progressing. Waddledees, those are better than getting grabbed. Idk about Gordos but are you sure about waddles not being effected by FLUDD?

Depends on how high you start Fludding. It MAY stop his movement for a half a second, which would be awesome, but he has to be pretty far away for him not to be able to punish you DURING Fludd.

Fludding assumes that he's not close enough to hop up and Bair you or grab you out of Fludd when you land. Why would he be that far away if he's trying to punish your landing? If I were to use Fludd to protect my landing, it would be to push Mario away from D3, not to push D3 away from Mario. I'd also be using it from far above so that he can't possibly reach me before my attack ends. Using it low enough that Fludd will actually hit D3 (aside from if D3 is ALREADY in the air trying to bair you or something...in which case, Fludd is an amazing, safe option) is leaving you dangerously vulnerable.

Don't think I mean for a FLUDD shot to happen everytime you're in the air. It should be fully charged and used sparingly. If a DDD is reading all of your other options and you can't catch a break, maybe trying something different and simple will suffice. Mix it up with cape stalls, etc. Its worth a try, don't shoot it down until its been legitamately tested and disproved. You're trying to land, not push the DDD across/off the stage.

Definitely agree. One redeeming quality about Mario is the fact that he has a lot of options for most situations. Sure, most of them aren't very great, but they don't really NEED to be most of the time. As long as the opponent doesn't expect it, then they can't hurt you.

I'm pretty sure we can all agree it's at least -2. But other than that not really.

I'm personally thinking -2.

I can definitely live with -3.

I'm vehemently against -4.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Me and 2Fast played our matches.

I think I should reword how I think about it. I think it's unwinnable in the sense that, no, Mario won't be completely destroyed, 2-stocked/3-stocked, but he just won't, win.

It's really depressing to watch Mario on the edge/off stage in this matchup.

 

[Coolwhip]

Me and 2Fast played our matches.

I think I should reword how I think about it. I think it's unwinnable in the sense that, no, Mario won't be completely destroyed, 2-stocked/3-stocked, but he just won't, win.

It's really depressing to watch Mario on the edge/off stage in this matchup.

Upload the videos soon.

 

[2fast]

You guys will see how the MU is. I get beat pretty badly by Yars. I'm probably not the best to go to about the D3 MU though as I know what to do on paper but when playing I just can't space properly vs D3 as Mario since I only play Snake for that MU since it's much easier to work with than Mario. Me and Yars literally haven't played Mario vs D3 in months, I don't even find it enjoyable to play that MU.

My opinion, if the D3 knows what to do against the Mario like Yars does since even though I don't play Mario vs D3 he's played my Mario many other times in different MUs so he knows Mario very well and is no joke when it comes to fighting Mario. Mario vs D3 I believe sucks horrible.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Hmm Mario Dedede not being fun.

I wonder why that would be.