MATCH UPS....throw anything you got.....

[Takeshi245]

Wait a minute! Before I completely change my mind, how badly does FIHL mess her up? Also, since it takes a while to charge up FLUDD for it to be effective, going from 6-4 to 5.5-4.5 seems rash.

 

[Tlmab]

I'm not sure, Mr. Game & Watch is a pretty tough match-up too.

game and watch makes me mad, but it cant be helped.

 

[Matt07]

game and watch makes me mad, but it cant be helped.

Game and Watch vs Mario is worse then MK I think . FLUUD does help you though, it totally wrecks his b-air.

 

[Judge Judy]

Wait a minute! Before I completely change my mind, how badly does FIHL mess her up? Also, since it takes a while to charge up FLUDD for it to be effective, going from 5.5-4.5 seems rash.

You can't do too much to her Dtilt or Dsmash but the rest of her moves lag petty badly from FIHL, especially her Usmash and Fsmash. To me, Zelda's Dtilt is th biggest problem on the ground and her Naryu's Love is annoying because it's a good GTFO me move.

 

[Takeshi245]

You can't do too much to her Dtilt or Dsmash but the rest of her moves lag petty badly from FIHL, especially her Usmash and Fsmash. To me, Zelda's Dtilt is th biggest problem on the ground and her Naryu's Love is annoying because it's a good GTFO me move.

Sounds interesting. Is it so much that you can actually go up to her and punish her? Mario does have to wait for all the water to come out. That's why I'm curious.

 

[Judge Judy]

Game and Watch vs Mario is worse then MK I think . FLUUD does help you though, it totally wrecks his b-air.

FLUDD wecks G&W all around. I feel that the biggest problem against G&W is getting inside his range without getting punished and keeping yourself from getting KOed too early; sounds simple but G&W's priority makes him difficult to safely approach, plus G&W can KO very early. My main ways of fightning G&W are to stop his approaches with the FLUDD and carefully approach him with fireballs and Nairs. IDK, in some ways G&W is harder than MK, in others he's not.

Sounds interesting. Is it so much that you can actually go up to her and punish her? Mario does have to wait for all the water to come out. That's why I'm curious.

You'd have to wait until the water is out but Zelda would be trapped in FIHL at least as long as the FLUDD lasts.

 

[Takeshi245]

You'd have to wait until the water is out but Zelda would be trapped in FIHL at least as long as the FLUDD lasts.

I thought so. I don't think that does much to make it 5.5.-4.5. I'm sticking with 6-4 Zelda.

 

[Judge Judy]

I thought so. I don't think that does much to make it 5.5.-4.5. I'm sticking with 6-4 Zelda.

The main thing FIHL does to Zelda on the ground is it badly hurts her spacing and makes her susceptible to a fireball since she'll be stuck with whatever ending lag her atk has after FIHL; FIHL plus ending lag.

 

[Ray/Boshi]

To be honest. And this goes for every matchup Mario has. A few matches may be slightly difficult. But overall it's not too bad off. Will never be a officially severe 75,80/ 20 scenario or anything like that if you play your cards right.

Long as you don't get intimidated by Zelda's powerful attacks, you'd be alright though. She can KO you fairly early if you get hit by a sweetspot.

 

[HeroMystic]

Agreed. Mario shouldn't be seeing anything higher than 70:30 disadvantage for any match-up.

Too bad same can be said for his advantages. -_-

 

[Crackle]

Will there ever be a chart posted for this with updated results or are we going to stay technologically challenged? I got nothing against it, I don't know how to make those charts myself xD

 

[Matt07]

Hmm well we could ask Mmac for his chart, then someone would have to use Paint(?) or another program to put in the numbers.

I could ask Mmac for the chart, going to do that right now.

 

[HeroMystic]

Might be best to make an index of it and another thread for it so we can discuss numbers. That way we can like... actually have ratios for our match-ups. XD

I get tired of people thinking MK is an 20:80.

 

[Matt07]

Might be best to make an index of it and another thread for it so we can discuss numbers. That way we can like... actually have ratios for our match-ups. XD

I get tired of people thinking MK is an 20:80.

Lol agreed, or we could discuss it in the Pipe House Thread, which ever you guys prefer. Anyways I didn't really touch the list for Zelda/Sheik so if anyone has anything to add/remove/change let me know. The debate is still on so Zelda/Sheik mains are still welcome to discuss.

I used information out of this thread too come up with the summary, credit goes to the original posters.

Zelda

Pros:
+Fireballs can do some damage, but if you're predictable she can use her reflector.
+Zelda is fairly light.

Cons:
-Can K.O very early.
-Nayru's Love is hard to deal.
-Down tilt lock, into downsmash makes K.O's us early, since we can't recovery due to the trajectory it sends us at.
-Usmash outpriotizes every one of Mario's moves.

Sheik

Pros:
+Her lightweight makes it easier for us to K.O her.
+Mario has better priority.
+Better(?) Disjointed hitboxes compared to Sheik.
+Mario can't be Ftilt locked conventionally.

Neutrals
+/ They both can edgeguard eachother very well.
+/- About the same K.O power.

Cons:
-She can easily 'run' around Fireballs.
-Sheik is very fast making it quite hard to land an Fsmash.
-Sheik has superior mobility in approach
-Needles are quick, and very difficult to cape.
-Sheik is faster in almost every category (ground speed, air speed, attack speed)
-Sheik's non-Tipper-Usmash KO moves are on-average easier to land than Mario's.
-Sheik has insanely good combo options.

Special Thanks to the Zelda/Sheik Boards for their contributions and discussion .

Edit: Overall Match-up is...

Sheik
55:45
Zelda
60:40

Just need some finalized version.

 

[HeroMystic]

Zelda's not a disadvantage.

 

[Monk/Honkey/Banana]

Zelda's not a disadvantage.

I've yet to lose to a zelda main...just sayin'

 

[cHooKay]

I've yet to lose to a zelda main...just sayin'

I second that... sort of. The only time I can remember seriously losing to a good zelda mainer was when I first bought the game....

 

[Zankoku]

Wait, how does Sheik's pros outnumber her cons yet still cause her to have a disadvantage in the matchup? lol

 

[Matt07]

Lol good question xD. I just took everything from the discussion and put it into the list. It does seem a bit hectic though. Alright so 55:45 in Mario's favour against Zelda, and Sheik is the same?

And what about the pro/con list, it seems out of place lol.

 

[HeroMystic]

Some things about the list.

Cons:
-She can easily stop our recovery with Over B.
-She can easily 'run' around Fireballs.
-Sheik is very fast making it quite hard to land an Fsmash.
-Sheik has superior mobility in approach
-Needles are quick, and very difficult to cape.
-Sheik is harder to Cape.
-Sheik is faster in almost every category (ground speed, air speed, attack speed)
-Sheik's non-Tipper-Usmash KO moves are on-average easier to land than Mario's.
-Sheik has insanely good combo options.

The first con is wrong. Shiek doesn't easily stop our recovery with anything except for maybe F-air, and that's only if you used your 2nd jumpb.

Shiek is not hard to cape at all, but her recovery is harder to deal with than Zelda's.

And we're missing some pros for Mario it seems. It's quite dry.

Shiek is either 55:45 or 50:50. Zelda is a 60:40.

 

[Zankoku]

HeroMystic, who's the advantaged character in those numbers?

 

[HeroMystic]

Mario, as explained here.

 

[Zankoku]

55:45/50:50 seems accurate, but I can't judge the Zelda matchup. Can you tell me how difficult it would be for Zelda to land a killing blow when using Sheik and transforming to Zelda? In that case Sheik/Zelda would have the superior killing power in addition to the relatively equal normal play.

 

[HeroMystic]

Depends on how well Shiek avoids damage.

If she's not at 100+, then Zelda has plenty of opportunities to kill Mario, but if she's at 100+ and is transforming, then she'll have to avoid being KO'd/gimped as well. Zelda has to approach Mario, which means Mario doesn't have to run into any tilts, and he can punish her attacks. As long as the player isn't mindlessly trying to attack Zelda like I see a lot of Marios do, then he shouldn't be getting ko'd easily.

I'd put Zelda/Shiek as a 45:55 Disadvantage for Mario simply because the KO power DOES have to be taken into account.

 

[Matador]

I'm not seeing 55:45 vs Shiek OR 60:40 vs Zelda. Shiek vs Mario is even, why is 55:45 being debated?

Zelda has that Dtilt lock -> Dsmash on Mario, and KO advantage. Naryu's > Fireballs, and she vastly outranges and outprioritizes Mario. I could easily see a good Zelda keeping a good Mario out with her options. Even when Mario DOES get inside, I've been knocked out mid-combo by her neutral B. Even with the gimp options, I don't see 60:40....55:45 at the very highest for me.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm fine with 50:50 for Shiek. Others just seemed to be going for it so I took it into consideration.

As for the D-tilt lock, how often will she hit an aerial character like Mario?
Fireballs/Cape/FLUDD > Naryu's. Not to mention that reflected fireballs aren't a problem for Mario since you know, he doesn't have to approach.

You do have a point with the combo problem however, but that's it.

I'm still seeing the 60:40 clearly, but I can be persuaded for 55:45, but there is no way this is an even or advantage for Zelda.

 

[Matador]

Yeah, Dtilt won't be landing very often vs Mario, but when it DOES....that's about 30-40 damage if done right. I'm not sure how early Mario can SDI/TDI out, but I always eat at least 3 and a Dsmash to end it.

And I suppose you're right about not needing to approach. I'm generally approaching in this matchup, but it never really occurred to me that Mario doesn't really need to. How're Zelda's approach options?

 

[Zankoku]

SH nair, SH Din's Fire.

That's about it. Zelda shouldn't have to dedicate herself to approach if she wants a favorable matchup. If she does have to... then it's not favorable.

 

[Brinzy]

Mario doesn't force Zelda to approach, unless Zelda is barely being outranged.

 

[BoTastic!]

Matador.

Mario's Dair and Bair>Naryu's love

Zelda can do a good job keeping Mario out but when he gets inside, he's pretty hard to keep out since Mario is so much faster than her.

Im going with Even with Mario and Sheik though.

 

[Matador]

What...they hit through?

 

[BoTastic!]

Mario's Dair goes through her Neutral B and hit her.

 

[HeroMystic]

Mario doesn't force Zelda to approach, unless Zelda is barely being outranged.

All right, a lot of people don't know how Mario can out-camp other characters, so here:

As said before, you can camp with Fireballs. However, it takes more than fireballs to effectively camp. It also takes FLUDD, Cape, B-air/N-air, OOS options, and ledge usage. Fireballs can’t be needlessly spammed. Those will just be powershielded, which is why many say fireballs are a crappy camp projectile. However, Fireballs go in different trajectories from the air and when grounded, and you can also move backward and forward while using them. Doing this will break your opponent’s timing and rhythm and eventually causes them to take damage.

FLUDD is used to outright kill aerial approaches, in which fireballs don’t do so well in the air due to being affected by gravity. Approach killing and FIHL allows Mario to counterattack with aerials and perhaps Smash attacks. Cape can also be used as an anti-approach mechanism due to its properties and allows for counterattacks as well. Using both of these is essential for stopping attacks and in return not taking any damage. Cape is also essential to combat against other campers since it reflects projectiles.

When the enemy is so close that FLUDD won’t work and you won’t have time to pull out a cape, that’s when N-air, B-air, and OOS options come in. You use B-air to contest range, while N-air to quickly react to an incoming attack. Up-B OOS is best used when dealing with a multihit attack that outranges B-air and N-air.

Camping is essentially effective for Mario due to his superb gimping skills. This means he doesn’t have to wait until 150% to get off a kill. He can go up to 70% and then use a B-throw to throw the opponent off the stage. That’s when Mario can get a gimp kill off. If done effectively, Mario would have little damage and the match is practically in his hands.

Since Zelda has a reflector, yes, this is slightly harder to deal with ,but all Mario has to do is switch it up a bit. Cape Din's fire, fireball spam, FLUDD to mess up her spacing and quite possiblity push her off the stage to put her in a bad position where Mario actually CAN approach safely and quite possibly gimp. The fireball spam is just so Zelda has to react to it, nothing more. If it gets in damage that's just a plus.

Mario's fireball camping isn't effective, but the fact that he neutralizes many other campers makes him able to out-camp others. He doesn't necessarily force an approach, but he more or less stops all other options.

 

[Mmac]

Hmm well we could ask Mmac for his chart, then someone would have to use Paint(?) or another program to put in the numbers.

I could ask Mmac for the chart, going to do that right now.

Something like this is what you want?

 

[Kataefi]

Woah... that is an amazing matchup chart. I'm inspired.

 

[HeroMystic]

lol, that's perfect!

 

[Matt07]

Yes, that's the one Mmac! Thanks a bunch for letting us use it.

Hmm...should we go to the Pipe House, and discuss the advantages/disadvatanges ratio for every match-up?

 

[Judge Judy]

Nice, but it looks kind of wierd with Mario in the background like that.

 

[Kataefi]

I read you're summary on Zelda on the OP, it's pretty good! Don't forget to add the dtilt lock > DSmash combo though (it's our secret weapon)... Also, watch out for her Utilt and Uair. Zelda is the most anti-aerialist character in the game. Utilt kos Mario around 100-105% when fresh, possibly earlier with no DI. Uair, is just insane. They are both the strongest Utilts and Uairs in the entire game.

If Mario's an aerial character he'll have to be careful of a surprise SH Uair from time to time. She'll purposely whiff it as well to bait an airdodge - when it's whiffed and the explosion doesn't come out and she touches the ground, it autocancels into something immediately. If the explosion does come out and she misses, she lags, so that's you're time to rush in. I sometimes use this on characters who tend to approach via jumping, (but only rarely, because it's very high risk/reward but will most certainly guarantee me the kill).

 

[Matt07]

Just putting it there again. Boss can put it up, then we can move on to the next Character.

I used information out of this thread too come up with the summary, credit goes to the original posters.

Zelda

Pros:
+Fireballs can do some damage, but if you're predictable she can use her reflector.
+Zelda is fairly light.

Cons:
-Can K.O very early.
-Nayru's Love is hard to deal.
-Down tilt lock, into downsmash makes K.O's us early, since we can't recovery due to the trajectory it sends us at.
-Usmash outpriotizes every one of Mario's moves.

Sheik

Pros:
+Her lightweight makes it easier for us to K.O her.
+Mario has better priority.
+Better(?) Disjointed hitboxes compared to Sheik.
+Mario can't be Ftilt locked conventionally.

Neutrals
+/ They both can edgeguard eachother very well.
+/- About the same K.O power.

Cons:-She can easily 'run' around Fireballs.
-Sheik is very fast making it quite hard to land an Fsmash.
-Sheik has superior mobility in approach
-Needles are quick, and very difficult to cape.
-Sheik is faster in almost every category (ground speed, air speed, attack speed)
-Sheik's non-Tipper-Usmash KO moves are on-average easier to land than Mario's.
-Sheik has insanely good combo options.

Special Thanks to the Zelda/Sheik Boards for their contributions and discussion .

We already did Zelda, so I guess we put up this list instead? Whatever you guys want.