MATCH UPS....throw anything you got.....

[Genos]

Hey, where did the matchup ratio for Rob go? We need to have these for every matchup or else it can't go on DanGR's chart!

 

[Matt07]

Are you talking about the list of pro's/con's? Or the match-up ratio?

The match-up ratio for ROB is on there =P. We have him listed as 60:40 in our favour.

But right now we kinda want other character boards to come in there explaining why they think it should be different/or they agree with us on the ratios.

But so far we only had Ike mains come in, and I posted it on other character boards as well, oh well.

 

[BoTastic!]

That Mr. E guy came here for rob. But i was really only agreeing with CHozenone and DraGz

 

[Z1GMA]

Mario vs SubZero is 100:0 in Mario's favour. He can cape his Ice, and Mario's up B fatality kills no matter if they're still alive. And once Sub Zero is knocked off the stage, he cannot recover.

Wrong!.. His "Ice statue" makes him jump a litte (down+b)

 

[Genos]

Are you talking about the list of pro's/con's? Or the match-up ratio?

The match-up ratio for ROB is on there =P. We have him listed as 60:40 in our favour.

But right now we kinda want other character boards to come in there explaining why they think it should be different/or they agree with us on the ratios.

But so far we only had Ike mains come in, and I posted it on other character boards as well, oh well.

I meant the matchup ratio in this topic. I didn't notice that it was listed in Hero's topic until you pointed it out, but it's all good now.

 

[HeroMystic]

So when are we discussing Bowser? XD

 

[boss8]

wow bowser seriously do we really hafe to like the easiest thing in brawl to fight......besides ness ofcourse.....

 

[PKNintendo]

wow bowser seriously do we really hafe to like the easiest thing in brawl to fight......besides ness ofcourse.....

ugh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzjbV-yTomY

 

[HeroMystic]

wow bowser seriously do we really hafe to like the easiest thing in brawl to fight......besides ness ofcourse.....

lol, people wanted to talk about Bowser awhile back.

 

[BoTastic!]

Boss, Bowser is actually harder to fight than Ness. =/

 

[gantrain05]

actually bowser will give mario many problems, you gotta play a good bowser to see it, but he can do a number on mario.

 

[BoTastic!]

actually bowser will give mario many problems, you gotta play a good bowser to see it, but he can do a number on mario.

I wouldn't say many problems. A few enough to make it even or with Mario with a 55:45 advantage. He has more range, power, and priority. I'd like to discuss him more.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'd have to agree there. It's Mario's advantage, but not by much.

 

[Monk/Honkey/Banana]

The match up is 100:0 Bowser's favor as the princess is always in another castle

 

[Matt07]

 

[PKNintendo]

Don't forget grab releases. Bowser has some on Mario too. Nothing drastic though, forward B, Down B, AA combo, fair and a regrab.

 

[Ray/Boshi]

I see that Bowser can pontentially pose some problems. His grab release is pretty nice. Jabs and fortress are lovely. Overall, just a patient, and cautiously careful opponet. I been up against a few decent Bowsers. Just dont run in aimlessly attacking and you will do fine. Mario has way more tools tgen him.

 

[hippiedude92]

Grab releases do pose a threat to MArio. SEeing as how Mario doesn't have alot of range in his attacks they can be easily shield grabbed espically by Boozer. * I should know, f**kin hold my f**kin shield up all the time in matchs*. But since Boozer has a hard time with projectiles, marios fireballs will make up for it.

I'll tell this only once but if mario is WAY too over aggressive he'll be eating OOS fortress ( 1-5 frames of incbility and hitbox comes out at frame 6), and alot of shield grabs leading to grab releases.

Boozer's jab, tilts, and OOS tricks will prove a threat. Like every other matchup if the oppenent has better range, Mario has to be creative in working his way in. If your gonna go for fireballs, boozers fast jab can easily cancel it out.

Retreating Fairs can't be punished since they can be autocanceled <-- im pretty sure of this, and if you doget powershielded that boozers fair, he can throw a jab,ftilt,dtilt quickly.

Oh and if Mario is under Boozer, basically Boozer blind spot, you'll wreck him with those sexy upair binds.

 

[Takeshi245]

Amazing. And I've realized Bowser's not as easy to take down in Melee. I think we should get the Bowser players here so we can have more of an agreeable conclusion like we've in the past.

 

[MrEh]

Bowser and Mario matchup should be 50-50 IMO. I'm too tired to type right now, so I'll say this.


Mario ***** in the air. Bowser ***** on the ground.

 

[LinIsKorean]

Just keep your distance from Bowser, and Mario should be fine. Fireball is great against Bowser, you want to force approaches against him whenever you can. Conversely, don't try to approach him unless you're spacing is beast or you see an opening, because Bowser's OoS game will make you sad. Grab releases are great and all, but if you just play keep away with Fireballs you should be able to keep out of grab distance.

I'd say 55:45 Mario.

 

[hippiedude92]

I know MrEh is ****** wall of text with Boozer. So enlighten us now with it.

 

[Matt07]

I know MrEh is ****** wall of text with Boozer. So enlighten us now with it.

Lmao too good Hippiedude.

Bowser is scary on platforms O.o. Hard has fauck to K.O.

I think the match-up is 50:50.

 

[HeroMystic]

Don't really need to KO Bowser when you can just gimp him. He doesn't really have much options for recovery.

 

[Matt07]

True, Cape/Fireballs/FLUDD can handle it, and be careful with it though, if you go too far out you can eat a Bowser-cide. Although I dunno if Bowser's like to take the risk of doing that.

 

[hippiedude92]

Nah, usually when I play Boozer, the first thing is retaining that double jump. If I used it and get hit back offstage, majority of the time espically if it's mario, mario will be having turtle soup for dinner /phailattempt on ko joke lol.

But literally Boozer can ko Mario hella early. Mario must not expose his blind spot which is below him or else he'll be eating utilts and a upair for breakfast.

Boozer's utilt completely ***** a whole platform on Bf and half way to the top platform. It has a weird hitbox that can kill around 90%s.

his upair can kill us at like 85% (tested it on top platform)

Mario can kill boozer at around 116% (tested on center of fd no di).

Mario will definitely has to rely on crazy aerial pressure leading to gimps :[. Boozer's blind spot is also below him so upair binds leading to Fair kos are welcome for Aggressive aerial pressure Mario mainers.

 

[HeroMystic]

I've tasted the Bowser's Up-air before, so I can confirm that.

In any case, this is very similar to the DK match-up, just that Bowser can be comboed more heavily.

 

[hippiedude92]

agreed on that im gonna go with 55-45. still waiting on boozer players to come in (im looking at MrEh I'm so sure he has something on his sleeve lol) or moving on?

 

[MrEh]

Okay, as predicted, here's the wall of text!


Okay, Bowser is very underestimated in this game. He's way better then he was in Melee, but a lot of people don't seem to notice. Bowser is a beast in this game, in the most literal sense.

Bowser's ground game is excellent. His Ftilt outranges every non-projectile ground attack except for Mario's Fsmash. The Ftilt comes out quick, has a decent amounts of priority, and it will probably be used for spacing. Ftilts can be angled upwards to try to intercept Mario's aerials, and it does a decent job at that, since Mario lacks any sort of disjointed hitbox in those attacks. Bowser's Jab is also used for spacing and is one of his best moves. Bowser's Jab comes out quick, has nearly no cool down lag, and has good range and priority. (It actually outranges Pit's Fsmash and clanks with it.) Jabs will most likely be used when the Ftilt would be too slow to punish Mario, or if Mario's close to Bowser. Bowser's ground game simply outclasses Mario's in the end. The good news is that you can pull off some pretty cool Cape--->Fsmash stuff against Bowser's attacks if you're ballsy enough.

The Fortress should also be mentioned as well. Bowser's Fortress, as most of you know, can be used OoS and is simply an outrageous move. It has invincibility frames at startup, and a crapload of priority once the hitbox comes out on frame 6. The Fortress also does a decent amount of damage and will probably kill Mario at 120% fresh, so you should watch out for that. Mario is a bit more susceptible to an OoS Fortress compared to some other characters because most of his attacks lack disjointed hitboxes, meaning he's more easily hit by an OoS Fortress. An OoS Fortress can be avoided by properly spaced Bairs, which you should be using anyway. The thing you really need to keep in mind is that being overly aggressive in this matchup is a bad thing. Bowser simply ***** overly aggressive players with the Fortress. The good news is that Mario really isn't an overly aggressive character anyway. Mario has good keep away game, and you should be exploiting that to it's full potential. Your Fireballs are awesome; use them.

Bowser's grab game also needs to be explained. Thankfully, Bowser's grab range sucks. It's simply bad. Really bad. However, if Bowser lands a grab on you, Mario's in a very very bad situation. I think everyone knows by now, but Bowser has the most **** grab releases in the game. Bowser's grab releases on Mario are pretty basic, but Mario can still get hit by a lot of stuff. If you ground release out of Bowser's grab, he can simply grab you again, pummeling you for more damage. If you're near a ledge, Bowser can use his Dtilt out of a grab, and that's a potential killing move. And if Bowser just wants to smack Mario for some beefy damage, he can use his Klaw out of a ground release as well, which will do a pretty hefty 18%. It's never good to get a ground release, since Bowser can always just grab you again once you break out. Getting a jump release is a better option for Mario, but Bowser can still hit Mario out of a Jump release with an Fair, which can kill at the ledge, or a Klaw, which will still do a chuck of damage. So all in all, it's a bad situation either way, but at least you're free from Bowser's chaingrab if you jump out. Basically, just avoid the grab as much as possible. It *****, but it shouldn't be that hard for Mario to avoid it. Just play keep away with your Fireballs. It's annoying and it works.

Bowser's aerial game is in most respects, pretty unimpressive. However, it's still something you need to look out for. Bowser is a character that does much better when he's underneath his opponent, and that's why he does so well on Norfair and Battlefield. If you're in the air and Bowser's below you, try to get to the ground as fast as possible. Otherwise Bowser could jump up and try to Uair you. Bowser has one of the most powerful Uairs in the game, and if you're in the air, it'll probably kill Mario at 80%. It will also go through all of Mario's aerials, so make sure you avoid this, since dying at 80% sucks. Bowser's Fair and Bair come out quick, and can be used to clash hits with Mario when you're both in the air. The Fair is pretty basic, but the Bair is pretty deadly. It hits hard, and it's slightly disjointed, giving it a pretty hefty amount of priority. It will probably be used as an edgeguard, so watch out for that, considering it comes out quick.

Oh, and you need to beware of Bowser's Utilt. I always dedicate a paragraph to the Utilt because it's so awesome, and it's probably one of Bowser's best moves. The Utilt comes out very fast, it has lots of priority, and it has an extremely bogus hitbox. I always say the hitbox is bogus because it feels like it's glitched sometimes. The hitbox is so large that it beats out all of Meta's aerials. That's how weird it is. Mario is no exception, and the Utilt will cut through every aerial in his arsenal except for maybe a well spaced Cape. The Utilt is even deadlier on stages with platforms, since Bowser can fire off Utilts much easier when platforms are around. Oh, and the Utilt will kill Mario at about 110% with good DI, so you need to watch out. It's an excellent killing move, and it's very hard to see it coming.

Of course, Mario has some good advantages in this fight. His keep away game has been mentioned, but as you know, he can rack up damage pretty quick. Utilt combos and aerial juggling simply destroy Bowser, since he doesn't do well in air and he has a blindspot below him. The blindspot exists because Bowser's Nair and Dair are so crappy. Just get him into the air, get underneath him, and begin the ****.

Mario can also gimp very well in this game. However, it's a bit harder to gimp Bowser then most people think. Because Bowser is so heavy, he's very difficult to get off the stage. And if he does get off the stage, most Bowser players will probably DI upwards to the corners. Bowser actually moves very fast in the air for some reason, and if he gets blasted to the corners, he can usually make it back to the stage without even using his Fortress. If Bowser recovers low, then just FLUDD and Cape him. Free gimp.


I still think it's a 50-50, just because Bowser dominates on the ground, but Mario dominates in the air and offstage.

 

[Matt07]

Good read MrEh, I agree 100% with your post.

I am a bit suprised that there are so little Bowser mains, he just has so much untapped potential, and is a good character.

 

[mariofanpm12]

Bowser's ground game really beats out Mario's. He's got his F-Tilt, which has great range, and the aforementioned U-Tilt, which eats out all of Mario's Aerials. However, Mario can gimp him pretty easily, and once Bowser's in the air he's easy pickings(beware are U-air, though).

At best 55:45 Mario's favor
At worst 45:55 Bowser's favor

 

[MrEh]

At best 55:45 Mario's favor
At worst 45:55 Bowser's favor

I'd settle for a neutral.

I am a bit suprised that there are so little Bowser mains, he just has so much untapped potential, and is a good character.

No one wants to use Bowser because they assume that he sucks.

Also, he's not very likable as a character. Look at Marth. Everyone likes him because he has a sword and it the hottest girl in the game. Everyone likes Captain Falcon because he's manly. Bowser is a oversized turtle, and that's not very likable. XD

And by the way, I wasn't kidding about Marth. She really is attractive.

 

[HeroMystic]

Lawl.

I'd use Bowser if I wasn't already settled with Mario, Link, and Ike.

In any case I'd go with 55:45 just because Bowser is a bit 'too' easy to combo.

 

[gantrain05]

I'd settle for a neutral.



No one wants to use Bowser because they assume that he sucks.

Also, he's not very likable as a character. Look at Marth. Everyone likes him because he has a sword and it the hottest girl in the game. Everyone likes Captain Falcon because he's manly. Bowser is a oversized turtle, and that's not very likable. XD

And by the way, I wasn't kidding about Marth. She really is attractive.

lol, who's marth? you mean martha? cuz i know who martha is, but SERIOUSLY, people need to start playing more bowser, i've been ****** G&W's lately lol, all i've been doing is baiting their approach, which we all know will be their bair, and just walk backwards and Fsmash them when they get close, its just so fun, nobody expects bowser to just casually walk away from an approach and come back at you with his giant head.

 

[mariofanpm12]

Maybe I'll start maining Bowser?

 

[MrEh]

and just walk backwards and Fsmash them when they get close, its just so fun, nobody expects bowser to just casually walk away from an approach and come back at you with his giant head.

Speaking of that, Bowser's Fsmash can do pretty funny things to Mario in some situations. Because Bowser draws back his head back really far when he does his Fsmash, I actually used that once to dodge Mario's Fsmash. After that, Mario went flying.

Useless, but funny when it actually happens.

Maybe I'll start maining Bowser?

Nah, keep using Mario. Gotta represent!

 

[mariofanpm12]

Speaking of that, Bowser's Fsmash can do pretty funny things to Mario in some situations. Because Bowser draws back his head back really far when he does his Fsmash, I actually used that once to dodge Mario's Fsmash. After that, Mario went flying.

Useless, but funny when it actually happens.



Nah, keep using Mario. Gotta represent!

Don't worry, I was kidding

 

[MrEh]

Don't worry, I was kidding

I hope so. Being a Bowser main is a horrible curse.

 

[mariofanpm12]

I hope so. Being a Bowser main is a horrible curse.

Ha, I wonder why that is?

 

[Matt07]

Bowser's usmash owns, it punishes air-dodges because it hits twice...at least I always get hit by it after air dodging =P.