MATCH UPS....throw anything you got.....

[Matador]

I'd say it's 60:40 if you're adding Transform into the mix for the matchup against Sheik. That way, Sheik has superior mobility in approach, a faster yet not as versatile projectile, a slightly-harder-to-gimp recovery, and equal/superior killing power.

I think we need to do them separately before anything's set in stone. At least show what one has over the other on both matchups separately, then put them together and rate that one last.

 

[Matador]

Sheik versus Mario:

Pro Sheik:
Sheik has insanely good combo options. Even if Mario isn't ultra-vulnerable to Ftilt locking, an Ftilt still almost always means a second one and then a Utilt.
Sheik has superior range with most of her options.
Sheik has a superior projectile.
Sheik's edgeguarding options wreck Mario's mediocre recovery. A slap offstage will almost always KO if done after the double-jump, regardless of percentage. Tether Hogging can keep him from Up-Bing to the ledge.
Sheik is faster in almost every category (ground speed, air speed, attack speed)
Sheik's recovery is hard for Mario to gimp. Tether can't be caped or FLUDDed, Up-B is very difficult to FLUDD and can't be caped if done to the edge.
Tipper Usmash kills better than anything Mario has.
Sheik's non-Tipper-Usmash KO moves are on-average easier to land than Mario's.

Pro Mario:
Sheik's fastfalling makes her vulnerable to Utilt and Uair juggles.
Mario's KO options KO better than anything Sheik has except the Tipper Usmash.
Uh... that's about all I've got.

Thanks for not generalizing and showing respect to our character.

/sarcasm

Edit: my apologies for the double post.

 

[HeroMystic]

Lol, I can already tell this won't end well.

 

[Matt07]

Sheik is better at combo'ing Mario then we're better at combo'ing her. We have utilt till so much %, and since Sheik is farily light she can easily DI, dodge, or counter are aerials if we're attacking (trying to combo) her, in my opinion.

Well the discussion so far as had little to no 'name-calling' yet...
I just hope we can keep it that way.

 

[Matador]

Sheik is better at combo'ing Mario then we're better at combo'ing her. We have utilt till so much %, and since Sheik is farily light she can easily DI, dodge, or counter are aerials if we're attacking (trying to combo) her, in my opinion.

Shiek's a relatively fast faller. Dthrow -> Uair or w/e works sort of like how it does on Fox. Dair -> combos as well. Even Utilt locks work for a little while, Shiek's not difficult to combo.

It's just that Shiek can combo very well too.

 

[HeroMystic]

Sheik is better at combo'ing Mario then we're better at combo'ing her. We have utilt till so much %, and since Sheik is farily light she can easily DI, dodge, or counter are aerials if we're attacking (trying to combo) her, in my opinion.

Huh? No, she's not. I can argue that Mario is better at comboing Shiek, but Shiek has the tools to stop long strings of attacks. Honestly I'm not seeing how Shiek can combo better than Mario. They seem quite even.

Shiek is a fast-faller btw, so her lightness doesn't help her.

Okay, before this goes to hell, lets get this organized.

DISCUSS SHIEK FIRST

Then Zelda

Then Both.

That way this can stay consistent.

 

[Matt07]

Lol Mystic, meh let's keep it up, just help me summarize Zelda, and I will do Sheik O.o, just please don't let me do both of them by myself .

And true about the combo'ing part, but I just haven't really fought too many Sheik's sooo.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Sheik and Zelda as far as I see are both close matchups for Mario that are slightly out of his favor (Sheik alone MIGHT be even). Alone, neither is all that bad to deal with. It is intelligent use of both you have to watch out for.

Sheik has a similar focus as you do. Juggle combos, projectile camping, and edgeguards. She is a bit better at camping and comboing and has some more range on a number of attacks, but you have better KO power and some priority walls that can be a chore for her to deal with such as SH double B-airs, D-airs, N-airs, yeah. By the way just keep in mind, her D-smash is still really gay. Not as powerful as in Melee, but still hard to punish.

Zelda is a gay matchup. She outdoes you in KO moves, and she forces you to do stuff because of Din's Fire. Smart Fireball camping can let you outcamp her, but it's very difficult to do, and you will do better if you manage to find away inside her range. Try to charge FLUDD frequently for that one moment where you can FLUDD her offstage while she is using Din's Fire. Try to combo her a lot, because you can do that. Be good at edgeguarding her recovery too. Landing a KO move on her can be difficult because she has a very impressive out of shield game. All in all, it takes a lot of patience to beat a good Zelda player. You need to have good zoning, being in the range where she can't use Din's Fire safely, and in a range where you can stay safe from her aerials and Smashes.

Zelda + Sheik players are a real threat because all they have to do is first get a juggle combo on you with Sheik, get you offstage, transform, and then land like a D-smash out of shield or spotdodge with Zelda, and it's overall a more powerful combination than you are.

 

[Zankoku]

The best advice I can give is "don't spotdodge."

Other than that it's pretty **** close to 50:50 in the Sheik/Mario matchup.

 

[-Mars-]

This matchup is about as even as it gets. I don't think you'll find a matchup as close as this one in the whole game. Gimping abilities, KO power, even their projectiles are both very good.

I really don't have trouble recovering against Mario, I always try to recover low so Vanish doesn't get caped. He can't really travel that far offstage, so i'm usually never in danger of the gimp.

 

[Matador]

Lol Mystic, meh let's keep it up, just help me summarize Zelda, and I will do Sheik O.o, just please don't let me do both of them by myself .

No way. This is too chaotic. People are already trying to put up ratios and generalizing the other party, we don't even know the first thing about either character.

I'll help you with the overview and such if that's the issue.

And true about the combo'ing part, but I just haven't really fought too many Sheik's sooo.

Soooo....your post is...just because?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Well, if he knows how to Cape Glide, he can jump REALLY far from the stage, edgeguard with an aerial, and still make it back. Just saying.

 

[Zankoku]

And if Mario does something as committing as a Cape Glide then Sheik will just fair him when he gets in range.

 

[Judge Judy]

Sheik has superior range with most of her options.

Meh, everyone says that. Anyway, doesn't help too much if Mario has better priority.

Sheik's edgeguarding options wreck Mario's mediocre recovery. A slap offstage will almost always KO if done after the double-jump, regardless of percentage. Tether Hogging can keep him from Up-Bing to the ledge.

Sheik has good options against Mario's recovery but it won't be nearly that easy to gimp Mario since he has good defense options off-stage such as fireballs, cape, and FLUDD.

Sheik is faster in almost every category (ground speed, air speed, attack speed)

Ground speed and air speed yes, attack speed no.

Sheik's recovery is hard for Mario to gimp. Tether can't be caped or FLUDDed, Up-B is very difficult to FLUDD and can't be caped if done to the edge.

You can cape Sheik's Up B during its startup and Sheik's total recovery distance isn't really any better than Mario's other than her tether.

Sheik's non-Tipper-Usmash KO moves are on-average easier to land than Mario's.

Yah, but have very low KO power.

 

[Matt07]

Soooo....your post is...just because?

Well I tried to base my knowledge of Sheik's I played before/watching videos of Mario vs Sheik. And I said in my opinion which means what I think (or in this case thought.)

 

[HeroMystic]

...and she forces you to do stuff because of Din's Fire.

No she doesn't <_< Din's Fire is easily caped or canceled with N-air. Din's Fire is crap.

In any case, stick with Shiek. Zelda will come later.

I really don't have trouble recovering against Mario, I always try to recover low so Vanish doesn't get caped. He can't really travel that far offstage, so i'm usually never in danger of the gimp.

You don't wanna recover low against Mario. Fireballs, FLUDD, and even a edgehog will get you gimped.

Shiek's recovery isn't safe against a Mario who uses all his options. Your best bet is going for that tether.

 

[Matador]

This matchup is about as even as it gets. I don't think you'll find a matchup as close as this one in the whole game. Gimping abilities, KO power, even their projectiles are both very good.

I really don't have trouble recovering against Mario, I always try to recover low so Vanish doesn't get caped. He can't really travel that far offstage, so i'm usually never in danger of the gimp.

This is about right. It's better to tether recover if you can. There's not much Mario can do vs that if he's not ledgehogging.

 

[Judge Judy]

And if Mario does something as committing as a Cape Glide then Sheik will just fair him when he gets in range.

You do realize that the cape glide is very fast and that the cape itself has transcended priority?

 

[Zankoku]

You do realize that time spent Cape Gliding is also time spent not attacking that Sheik will most likely spend, I dunno, attacking?

 

[Judge Judy]

You do realize that time spent Cape Gliding is also time spent not attacking that Sheik will most likely spend, I dunno, attacking?

The cape glide has no startup, it's just running off the ledge with the cape, what are you talking about?

 

[Kanzaki]

I don't think I've ever been attacked out of a cape glide.


It's all bout the mindgames.. I rarely do the cape glide, so my opponents gets thrown off, however if I were to spam it, then yea, I'd most likely get hit out of it.

So if you don't spam it, and throw your opponent off.. it's pretty fast and goes pretty far ><

 

[A2ZOMG]

No she doesn't <_< Din's Fire is easily caped or canceled with N-air. Din's Fire is crap.

In any case, stick with Shiek. Zelda will come later.

I never said it made you approach.

All I said is that it made you do stuff LOL. Just make sure you don't get too predictable in your patterns dealing with Din's Fire.

 

[Zankoku]

The cape glide has no startup, it's just running off the ledge with the cape, what are you talking about?

I'm talking about the cooldown. I could care less about the startup, if you're using the Cape to propel youself offstage toward me, I'm not going to just wait for your Cape to end and eat an aerial, I'm going to ****ing forward-air-slap your *** right back onto the stage so I can recover in peace.

 

[Judge Judy]

Lol, I can already tell this won't end well.

Yah, but I do think this match-up is an even 50:50.

 

[Judge Judy]

I'm talking about the cooldown. I could care less about the startup, if you're using the Cape to propel youself offstage toward me, I'm not going to just wait for your Cape to end and eat an aerial, I'm going to ****ing forward-air-slap your *** right back onto the stage so I can recover in peace.

What about the cape hitbox itself? The cape's hitbox is active during the cape glide and it has no cool down time because all ending lag is also used up during the cape glide itself.

Edit: double post.

 

[Matador]

The only reason I'd capeglide vs Shiek is to try and bait an early upB or prevent a tether. Using it too often or predictably to edgeguard WILL get you foward-air'd.

Edit: Monk lends his knowledge...

the only thing to worry about shiek is Up and Down Smash, Fair, and the tilts everything after that is just meh and can be easily detected/avoided...

 

[Zankoku]

Cape will trade with forward air, and I really don't care that much about getting caped at that point since it's still not going to make recovery impossible.

 

[Kanzaki]

The only reason I'd capeglide vs Shiek is to try and bait an early upB or prevent a tether. Using it too often or predictably to edgeguard WILL get you foward-air'd.

Exactly what I said, mindgamez! If you do it too often, your opponent would know you're doing it. Only time I'd capeglide against a Shiek is to do an uair after, if I think they're not gonna expect it, or do a short capeglide and fast fall a bair if I think they're going to tether.

 

[Mario_ 101]

u can f air zelda when shes up bing lol just thought i'd put it out there. zelda is just too ez to edgeguard and combo

 

[Judge Judy]

Exactly what I said, mindgamez! If you do it too often, your opponent would know you're doing it. Only time I'd capeglide against a Shiek is to do an uair after, if I think they're not gonna expect it, or do a short capeglide and fast fall a bair if I think they're going to tether.

Same with me but sometimes I'll use it to bait an Up B like with what Matador said. Anyway, I agree with you, the problem is that many people are too telegraphed when they use the cape glide, because the cape glide itself is not telegraphed unless you use it too often.

 

[The Trump Card]

I think we should just leave Boss and Ankoku together and see what happens.

 

[Zankoku]

Boss will almost certainly win. I'm not a pro-level player. You'd be better off deferring to RyokoYaksa.

 

[Brinzy]

I wish people would stop already with the whole, "You can Down B Zelda off the stage if she uses Din's Fire by the edge!"

You're facing a terrible Zelda if they resort to using Din's to force an approach vs. Mario. I use Din's against Mario when he's using his Fireballs in general because Din's will 1) clash with the fireball and 2) hit Mario because he could easily be in lagtime from the fireball. If I don't think Din's will make it, I hit the fireball. That's really all Din's is good for.


I need to play more matches with Matador. Maybe later on tonight... or maybe not. College sucks.

EDIT: Ankoku, you're at least second-best to Ryoko, right?

I wanna face Ryoko one day myself, to see if I can remove a stock.

 

[Matador]

I think we should just leave Boss and Ankoku together and see what happens.

Lol, that'd be the ideal situation; if we could sit down a play each other. Theory is what we're stuck with though.

....I hate theory

Edit:

I wish people would stop already with the whole, "You can Down B Zelda off the stage if she uses Din's Fire by the edge!"

You're facing a terrible Zelda if they resort to using Din's to force an approach vs. Mario. I use Din's against Mario when he's using his Fireballs in general because Din's will 1) clash with the fireball and 2) hit Mario because he could easily be in lagtime from the fireball. If I don't think Din's will make it, I hit the fireball. That's really all Din's is good for.


I need to play more matches with Matador. Maybe later on tonight... or maybe not. College sucks.

I was wondering if I'd see you post here, lol. Yeah, I'm up for a few matches if you are.

I wouldn't mind playing Ryoko either...

 

[HeroMystic]

I wish people would stop already with the whole, "You can Down B Zelda off the stage if she uses Din's Fire by the edge!"

Lol, we're just saying that Zelda can't camp Mario with Din's Fire. Everyone here seemed to be stating that you could so we had to address that.

Although, if they did try it then we'd teach them a lesson.

 

[Zankoku]

EDIT: Ankoku, you're at least second-best to Ryoko, right?

Haha, wow. Post count, board activity, and popularity are all completely irrelevant to skill. If I really am the second best Sheik player, I'd feel pretty bad about Sheik being such an underplayed character.

 

[Judge Judy]

I think we should just leave Boss and Ankoku together and see what happens.

I lol'd...hopefully they'd just play Brawl though.

 

[cHooKay]

ehh, I'd rather face a shiek than a zelda. Zelda can effectively space pretty good against mario using ftilt, utilt, fsmash, usmash, nair, naryu love, etc. I find myself doing ALOT of oos options during zelda, mixed with nair/ bair rushing. Zelda is by far easier to gimp/KO though, she's way to slow on the ground and in the air, and doesn't own that much weight.

Shiek's priority makes this particular match up easier. nuff said, she has all her option in her array, but in all seriousness, I'd like to see a shiek beat my WOP/fireball spam with mario. Her moves are easy to shieldgrab/perfect shield. Her recovery is just as gimpable as zeldas. Not saying that the matchup is a complete cake walk, its just that its tipped in mario's favor vs shiek...

55:45~ mario : zelda
60:40 ~ mario : shiek

 

[Brinzy]

I was wondering if I'd see you post here, lol. Yeah, I'm up for a few matches if you are.

I wouldn't mind playing Ryoko either...

I've got languages to do, but I wanna do that later on. I'll just IM you.

Lol, we're just saying that Zelda can't camp Mario with Din's Fire. Everyone here seemed to be stating that you could so we had to address that.

Although, if they did try it then we'd teach them a lesson.

Understandable. Zelda can't camp all that well anyway.

Haha, wow. Post count, board activity, and popularity are all completely irrelevant to skill. If I really am the second best Sheik player, I'd feel pretty bad about Sheik being such an underplayed character.

Well I've watched your videos, and you seem to be very good, to me...

 

[GodAtHand]

It's weird that you are doing Zelda/Shiek at the same time...

As Zelda I don't usually find any particular problems with Mario, if anything his cape and fludd simply make it a more interesting fight. Since Zelda is invincible until she reappears after using farore's all she has to do is recover a bit lower and she won't have to worry about being fludded... Zelda outranges mario in pretty much every way besides maybe the air, that I am not sure about. She also is difficult to combo because she is so light.

On the opposite end, Nayru's is not good against mario's fireballs and he can use his cape when we Din's to make Din's not really worthwhile in this matchup. He can also kill pretty well with some of his moves if they are fresh, especially since Zelda is light.

Overall I would say it is probably slightly in Zelda's favor..not much though.