MATCH UPS....throw anything you got.....

[iMichael]

lol thanks...

So this is a pretty even match up?

 

[Matador]

I have it adv Mario. Mario combos and kills him well with not much to limit him. Mario's Fsmash beats everything that Fox has, so it's pretty easy to land, his recovery is relatively easy to predict and punish, he's a fastfaller so comboing galore especially from Dthrow...I have yet to see what Fox has over Mario here. How is his ground game so much better? How is approaching hard?

.....Throw me a friggin' bone here

Edit: Wow...I said adv Fox, then had a hole paragraph saying why it isn't.

 

[Kanzaki]

In my opinion, only thing Fox has over Mario is speed for a better "keep away" game, and better KO power.

 

[Matador]

In my opinion, only thing Fox has over Mario is speed for a better "keep away" game, and better KO power.

Not even KO power. Usmash is ridiculous and kills at about 100% fresh, but so does Mario's Fsmash. The difference is that Fsmash is disjointed and kills Fox at the same % from pretty much anywhere on the stage (maybe not FD). A little higher, Usmash kills at around 120%. Add to the fact that Mario gimps Fox pretty well; well enough for it to be considered with the rest of his KO options.

Fox is very light.

 

[Ray/Boshi]

Fox can be difficult, but he's too obvious to me with his smashes. Especially his Usmash. It can kill you at very low %'s though.

Shine can be very beastly offensive wise if you are ever up against him, it's quick, and effective far as knocking you back, which is where a good Fox would want you to be. In close proximity. Also can be used as a slight mindgame since he falls so fast and it completly stops him in place temporarily.

Dair can be a hassle if you arent expecting it. His Fair is the only move that gets with me. Since I like jumping so much. Mario's pretty sewed up since his Fair is so slow in comparison to Fox if he comes at you with it and you're airborne. Mario's lacking in that scenario.

Don't concern yourself with his laser. It can rack up some %, and add annoyance. Just don't let it blind you from his options. Mainly his KO setups for Usmash. Stay in front of him, close enough to where he can't use it as safetly. It doesnt stun so it's just helps him out % wise, and also to throw you offgaurd.

Recovery wise, Mario can potentially destroy him, along with all his options. For reasons already stated.

He can tilt some nice % on you if he get's you in a Utilt chain. It's range is somewhat decieving. You can Nair out of it at times though.

I never fought a dedicated "Fox" main. So I'd be lying to you if I said who has the adv in the matchup. Fox is nice overall, He can possibly get with you if he's familar with the matchup as far as the ongoing battle goes. Unfortunatly his recovery is easily thwarted by multiple things. And he isnt too hard to gimp entirely on top of that if you come correct and he recovers right where you are laid out at.. Which, in the end is the closing factor IMO.

 

[vadgama]

Hey boss8 can u bold the character names, making it easier to scroll through and find a character u want to look at quickly

 

[hippiedude92]

shoot.. I misssed the fox discussion.. but anyways throwing quick things, OOS upb > Fox's dair "whether its full hopp or not >.>" and fireballs can gimp fox im srs, and fox's speed and alot of pivot grabs are a ****.

 

[Matador]

shoot.. I misssed the fox discussion.. but anyways throwing quick things, OOS upb > Fox's dair "whether its full hopp or not >.>" and fireballs can gimp fox im srs, and fox's speed and alot of pivot grabs are a ****.

There was no discussion...they didn't even get their arses in here.

 

[hippiedude92]

So... let's drag theirs *** from hell and bring them here then...?

 

[Matador]

Sounds like a plan...you first

 

[Judge Judy]

I'll do it, I'm already known as a firebrand anyway, not like my reputation is on the line or anything XD

 

[Zhamy]

There was no discussion...they didn't even get their arses in here.

Sorry, all the decent debaters went MIDTERMS KILL ME.

Let's see. I'll start with past few pages.

How does Fox edgeguard Mario in this matchup?

Nair drops and rising Dair off your second jump, and mostly Shine and Bair off your UpB. Ledgedrop and then rising Fair. Surprisingly, he's got a lot of options because of the way that Mario recovers.

[/quote]Fireball spamming back to the stage and FLUDD Recovery would usually take care of this.[/quote]

Problem is that Fox can Shine-stall off the edge, which preserves invincibility frames (lege re-grabbing) and reflects fireballs, limiting your options to mostly recovering onto the stage if you save your second jump and time it correctly.

I guess Fox's Dair is decent but it really doesn't have all that great of priority.

Correct.

[/quote]Mario can badly gimp Fox with pretty much everything he has and Fox's shine stalling doesn't really help him much against the cape glide or the FLUDD.[/quote]

I'd like a deeper explanation of the cape glide, if possible, although FLUDD does hurt Fox's recovery.

Mario definetely plays better off-stage than Fox.

True. He has many more gimp options.

Mario plays better in the air than Fox but Fox's fallspeed makes up for a lot of his shortcomings in the air. Mario has better overall KO power but Fox's Usmash is still a very good star KO move against Mario.

I'm curious about this one. In the air, yes, most of Mario's moves outmatch Fox's. Have you also considered Dsmash and Bair? Bair kills to the side at about 120%, and Dsmash at around 100% (give or take). Just things to watch out for.

I'd say they kill each other about the same time because of the power of Fox's Usmash. Its a bit easier to read though.

Dair combos straight into Usmash at killing percentages, unless you have perfect SDI out of every hit of Dair. Jab can also confirm into Usmash at a very narrow range of percentage and spacing, although I've seen it used quite effectively.

A little higher, Usmash kills at around 120%.

Explain? Usmash kills at 115% on Snake guaranteed, so I don't know where that number is coming from.

Fox can be difficult, but he's too obvious to me with his smashes.

How so? He should never be using Fsmash, Dsmash is quick and easy to fit in, and Usmash hitconfirms off of Dair.

Shine can be very beastly offensive wise if you are ever up against him, it's quick, and effective far as knocking you back, which is where a good Fox would want you to be.

Trust me - no one uses Shine offensively, or at least they shouldn't be. We have much better options. Jab->Grab, SH Nair, sliding shield to get into range...point being, Shine is not used offensively.

He can tilt some nice % on you if he get's you in a Utilt chain. It's range is somewhat decieving. You can Nair out of it at times though.

By that point, Fox should've stopped Utilting. (Un)Fortunately, Mario is not Luigi, so Nairing out of it should never work.


So I think we can separate this matchup into three sectors: Ground, Air, and Offstage/Edgeguarding. Start with Ground.

Ground

Fox's ground game is better than Mario's, without a doubt. Fox is faster, has more options, and can space more effectively than Mario. Most characters have a "dead zone" in certain matchups where you can't safely employ many options, thus restricting you. Against Fox, Mario's is pretty big. Far away, you can't spam fireballs safely, and when trying to approach with them, it puts you in a disadvantageous position, since Fox can employ many of his defensive options. Also, if a fireball hits his reflector, he can instantly (1-3 frames) roll or jump out of it, making it unsafe to try that as an approach. Close in, Fox has enough spaced SH options that you can't stay too close to his hitbox - otherwise, you could eat a SH Nair/Bair (spaced so no shield grabbing possible), or a Dair, or an empty shorthop for trickery, or whatever else the Fox thinks of. This puts Mario's range at just about the tip of his Fsmash (approximately, but you get the idea, yes?). Unfortunately, this doesn't leave Mario with too many options, and gives Fox plenty of room to re-space.

So, what about Mario? Against Fox on the ground, Mario should be using the AT called "walking." It prevents Fox from gaining too much advantage in spacing, and sure, you might eat a few damage from the laser, but shrug it off and keep on going. Be very careful with fireballs - one idea is to place them over Fox's head when you're approaching. There are a few mixups that Mario can employ out of this, so test and try it for yourself. Either way, you're helping to limit Fox's options, which is just as important. Watch your Utilt lock, as proper SDI from Fox will net you a Dair to the face after getting out of it. Dsmash is a good "get off of me" on Fox, as his range isn't exactly superb. Also, if you get a knockdown on Fox, try starting your tech chase with a fireball. Timed correctly, you can force Fox to shield - a free grab, maybe?


Comment, as I know a lot of what I said above can probably be added onto and clarified; some can probably be debunked. Don't be too vicious with the debating, though - the goal of a matchup thread is to evaluate and improve what both sides can do. (Read: DON'T FLAME PLEASE I AM TRYING TO HELP AND I LOVE YOU ALL AND STUFF.)

 

[The Trump Card]

Nice discussion guys, keep up the good work.

 

[Judge Judy]

Dair combos straight into Usmash at killing percentages, unless you have perfect SDI out of every hit of Dair. Jab can also confirm into Usmash at a very narrow range of percentage and spacing, although I've seen it used quite effectively.

Dair doesn't combo into Usmash, it combos into Utilt; I know for a fact that Mario can use his Up B if Fox goes for anything other than an Utilt or jab. Jab cancel into Usmash isn't guarenteed either.

 

[Judge Judy]

Fox's ground game is better than Mario's, without a doubt. Fox is faster, has more options, and can space more effectively than Mario. Most characters have a "dead zone" in certain matchups where you can't safely employ many options, thus restricting you. Against Fox, Mario's is pretty big. Far away, you can't spam fireballs safely, and when trying to approach with them, it puts you in a disadvantageous position, since Fox can employ many of his defensive options. Also, if a fireball hits his reflector, he can instantly (1-3 frames) roll or jump out of it, making it unsafe to try that as an approach. Close in, Fox has enough spaced SH options that you can't stay too close to his hitbox - otherwise, you could eat a SH Nair/Bair (spaced so no shield grabbing possible), or a Dair, or an empty shorthop for trickery, or whatever else the Fox thinks of. This puts Mario's range at just about the tip of his Fsmash (approximately, but you get the idea, yes?). Unfortunately, this doesn't leave Mario with too many options, and gives Fox plenty of room to re-space.

Meh, Mario's real problem is that Fox's speed, smashes, and tilts work better than Mario's overall. Mario can hold his own with jabs and Ftilts but landing smashes will be a bit harder for him than Fox. Also, Mario's Up B is a great OOS shield option. Fireballs still work well because of the way Mario follows up with them but Fox reflector denfinetly can slow things down and disrupt fireball spam.

So, what about Mario? Against Fox on the ground, Mario should be using the AT called "walking." It prevents Fox from gaining too much advantage in spacing, and sure, you might eat a few damage from the laser, but shrug it off and keep on going. Be very careful with fireballs - one idea is to place them over Fox's head when you're approaching. There are a few mixups that Mario can employ out of this, so test and try it for yourself. Either way, you're helping to limit Fox's options, which is just as important. Watch your Utilt lock, as proper SDI from Fox will net you a Dair to the face after getting out of it. Dsmash is a good "get off of me" on Fox, as his range isn't exactly superb. Also, if you get a knockdown on Fox, try starting your tech chase with a fireball. Timed correctly, you can force Fox to shield - a free grab, maybe?

Mario can follow up with an Up B from his Utilt lock. Anyway, most of Mario's ground game is based defensively using quick atks to block most moves, and punishing wiffed moves and bad spacing with smashes, the cape is an exception to this rule; Mario's ground defense options work great but his offensive options on the ground are limited.

Edit: Double post

 

[monkeyx4]

Fox's ground game is better than Mario's, without a doubt. Fox is faster, has more options, and can space more effectively than Mario. Most characters have a "dead zone" in certain matchups where you can't safely employ many options, thus restricting you. Against Fox, Mario's is pretty big. Far away, you can't spam fireballs safely, and when trying to approach with them, it puts you in a disadvantageous position, since Fox can employ many of his defensive options. Also, if a fireball hits his reflector, he can instantly (1-3 frames) roll or jump out of it, making it unsafe to try that as an approach. Close in, Fox has enough spaced SH options that you can't stay too close to his hitbox - otherwise, you could eat a SH Nair/Bair (spaced so no shield grabbing possible), or a Dair, or an empty shorthop for trickery, or whatever else the Fox thinks of. This puts Mario's range at just about the tip of his Fsmash (approximately, but you get the idea, yes?). Unfortunately, this doesn't leave Mario with too many options, and gives Fox plenty of room to re-space.

So, what about Mario? Against Fox on the ground, Mario should be using the AT called "walking." It prevents Fox from gaining too much advantage in spacing, and sure, you might eat a few damage from the laser, but shrug it off and keep on going. Be very careful with fireballs - one idea is to place them over Fox's head when you're approaching. There are a few mixups that Mario can employ out of this, so test and try it for yourself. Either way, you're helping to limit Fox's options, which is just as important. Watch your Utilt lock, as proper SDI from Fox will net you a Dair to the face after getting out of it. Dsmash is a good "get off of me" on Fox, as his range isn't exactly superb. Also, if you get a knockdown on Fox, try starting your tech chase with a fireball. Timed correctly, you can force Fox to shield - a free grab, maybe?


Comment, as I know a lot of what I said above can probably be added onto and clarified; some can probably be debunked. Don't be too vicious with the debating, though - the goal of a matchup thread is to evaluate and improve what both sides can do. (Read: DON'T FLAME PLEASE I AM TRYING TO HELP AND I LOVE YOU ALL AND STUFF.)[/QUOTE]
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You got eveything pretty much right. ive been facing box7 for some time an been getting slap around with that cheap crap cape lol. an getting youing that waterpump to take off my recovery. so pretty much mario is better than fox but you it's kinda even in da the same way if you know what i mean.

 

[BoTastic!]

Lol what sup Monkey. He should know the mario fox match up well. I face his fox the most out of all foxes that i fight.

 

[Matador]

Sorry, all the decent debaters went MIDTERMS KILL ME.

Let's see. I'll start with past few pages.

Midterms...

You have my sympathy.

Nair drops and rising Dair off your second jump, and mostly Shine and Bair off your UpB. Ledgedrop and then rising Fair. Surprisingly, he's got a lot of options because of the way that Mario recovers.

Your timing and aim will have to be pretty good. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Fox can't go TOO far offstage without being in danger of being gimped himself, so most of his options are done beside the ledge.

A move can't really be wasted since Fox falls so fast, and Mario can capestall to screw that up. No doubt, you have good options, but the timing must be good, and you have to watch out for our upB since it stagespikes.

Problem is that Fox can Shine-stall off the edge, which preserves invincibility frames (lege re-grabbing) and reflects fireballs, limiting your options to mostly recovering onto the stage if you save your second jump and time it correctly.

And take a look at 2:40 to 2:43. Korn would've ended the match right there without Fludd to protect my recovery. The same could be done for Fox, though probably not to that degree.

I'd like a deeper explanation of the cape glide, if possible, although FLUDD does hurt Fox's recovery.

Performed at 0:58. Note: that's about half the full distance and Mario retains his DJ, so any aerial can be done from but most be DI'd back toward the stage.

Explain? Usmash kills at 115% on Snake guaranteed, so I don't know where that number is coming from.

I meant Mario's Usmash; no doubt Fox's Usmash is epic. Mario's kills midweights at about 135%. Fox is a bit lighter, so it should be killing him at around 120-125%, making it a much better KO option here than in most matchups. Same with Dsmash surprisingly.

Ground

Fox's ground game is better than Mario's, without a doubt. Fox is faster, has more options, and can space more effectively than Mario. Most characters have a "dead zone" in certain matchups where you can't safely employ many options, thus restricting you. Against Fox, Mario's is pretty big. Far away, you can't spam fireballs safely, and when trying to approach with them, it puts you in a disadvantageous position, since Fox can employ many of his defensive options. Also, if a fireball hits his reflector, he can instantly (1-3 frames) roll or jump out of it, making it unsafe to try that as an approach. Close in, Fox has enough spaced SH options that you can't stay too close to his hitbox - otherwise, you could eat a SH Nair/Bair (spaced so no shield grabbing possible), or a Dair, or an empty shorthop for trickery, or whatever else the Fox thinks of. This puts Mario's range at just about the tip of his Fsmash (approximately, but you get the idea, yes?). Unfortunately, this doesn't leave Mario with too many options, and gives Fox plenty of room to re-space.

I'd have to see this in action. It's looking a bit abstract to me. It doesn't seem like any of Fox's or Mario's options are stretched, so I guess I'll go with it.

Any good Foxes do wifi?

So, what about Mario? Against Fox on the ground, Mario should be using the AT called "walking." It prevents Fox from gaining too much advantage in spacing, and sure, you might eat a few damage from the laser, but shrug it off and keep on going. Be very careful with fireballs - one idea is to place them over Fox's head when you're approaching. There are a few mixups that Mario can employ out of this, so test and try it for yourself. Either way, you're helping to limit Fox's options, which is just as important. Watch your Utilt lock, as proper SDI from Fox will net you a Dair to the face after getting out of it. Dsmash is a good "get off of me" on Fox, as his range isn't exactly superb. Also, if you get a knockdown on Fox, try starting your tech chase with a fireball. Timed correctly, you can force Fox to shield - a free grab, maybe?

I agree here.

Comment, as I know a lot of what I said above can probably be added onto and clarified; some can probably be debunked. Don't be too vicious with the debating, though - the goal of a matchup thread is to evaluate and improve what both sides can do. (Read: DON'T FLAME PLEASE I AM TRYING TO HELP AND I LOVE YOU ALL AND STUFF.)

You probably are the most knowledgeable person of Mario that's ever come into a debate with our boards. Much appreciated, kudos, all that good stuff

@ Judge: I'm pretty sure Dair combos into Usmash at higher %. Mario is stuck in his hitstun animation pretty long at about 90% from Dair. I've never been able to upB out.

 

[Judge Judy]

@ Judge: I'm pretty sure Dair combos into Usmash at higher %. Mario is stuck in his hitstun animation pretty long at about 90% from Dair. I've never been able to upB out.

I'll take your word for it, but from my experiences I've been able to Up B if Fox goes his Usmash.

 

[BoTastic!]

It only works on high %

 

[Judge Judy]

It only works on high %

How high? I guess I'm just being ignorant now but I'm curious. Looks like I'm the wrong person to ask about this match-up XD

 

[Matador]

How high? I guess I'm just being ignorant now but I'm curious. Looks like I'm the wrong person to ask about this match-up XD

Lol, it's okay Judge. I'm not sure though, but it's within KO %. Around 90% methinks.

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

The good thing about mario is that he doesn't have a horrible match-up, they're all pretty much equal ( the worst probably being 65-35 Mario's disadvantage ). This can make Mario reliable if you're more skilled than the other player.

 

[Judge Judy]

The good thing about mario is that he doesn't have a horrible match-up, they're all pretty much equal ( the worst probably being 65-35 Mario's disadvantage ). This can make Mario reliable if you're more skilled than the other player.

Kind of the same for every character, but yah I know what you're saying; Mario has the tools to even the odds in a match-up because of how verstile his moveset is, not all characters can do that.

 

[Zhamy]

You probably are the most knowledgeable person of Mario that's ever come into a debate with our boards. Much appreciated, kudos, all that good stuff

Well, consider that was only the ground options. We still have to cover aerial, although I think gimping/edgeguarding has been done enough. Maybe I'll get a post up tomorrow? But thanks.

How high?

Anywhere from 50% upward, actually. (Approximation.)

I'll take your word for it, but from my experiences I've been able to Up B if Fox goes his Usmash.

Depends. If the Usmash is buffered correctly, then no. But if he slips up, then I think you can squeeze 3 (?) frames into there, although I don't know the frame data for UpB to come out.

Kind of the same for every character, but yah I know what you're saying; Meta Knight has the tools to even the odds in a match-up because of how verstile his moveset is, not all characters can do that.

Eerily enough, that works here.

 

[Judge Judy]

Depends. If the Usmash is buffered correctly, then no. But if he slips up, then I think you can squeeze 3 (?) frames into there, although I don't know the frame data for UpB to come out.

Ok, makes sense, and yes, Mario's Up B comes out in 3 frames.

 

[BoTastic!]

strange.. Im always able to escape Fox's Dair>Usmash until i get to 100%-139%

 

[A2ZOMG]

Fox's ground game isn't better than Mario's. Except for his run speed.

Mario has better combos, and Fox is more likely to get shieldgrabbed for what he does.

Mario is definitely better than Fox in the air however.

 

[Zhamy]

strange.. Im always able to escape Fox's Dair>Usmash until i get to 100%-139%

Really? Will need to test, then.

 

[hippiedude92]

Fox's upsmash fresh I'm pretty sure kills starting around 95%-100%+ somewhere there.. But still alot of Fox's go for hyphen upsmash's. It's really telegraphed but with Mario's limited options with a SH it's a meh

 

[BoTastic!]

Usmash is the most telegraphed move Fox has. He can't hit me with it unless im around KO % and if he successfully commits the dair>usmash Which is also quite telegraphed.

 

[Zhamy]

Usmash is the most telegraphed move Fox has. He can't hit me with it unless im around KO %

It is the most telegraphed, yes. But you will see it being thrown out at lower percents, occasionally. Why? All Fox has to do is use 10 moves, and Usmash will be ready and roaring. It's usually easy enough to fit that in. Just something to keep in mind.

 

[Matador]

How is Fox racking up damage in this matchup? Mario has quite a few true combos because of Fox's fall speed.

 

[gantrain05]

i dunno, i don't find mario too hard of a matchup, but really i don't have many mario "pros" to play with, there just aren't too many out there, Usmash may be telegraphed, but nobody can avoid that move an entire match, fox's dash speed combined with marios SH approaches will usually mean fox is going to get this move off at least 2 times in a match, but i don't find it hard to really just kill with Dsmash actually, its a pretty good kill move, and sends mario pretty far horizontally, which is bad for him. as for an approach w/ fox, usually i'll play defensive until i see mario SH Bair approach or something of the sort, and usually full hop a Dair on top of him, doesn't always work, but if they are careless and SH close enough they can't really get out of it too well.

 

[hippiedude92]

How is Fox racking up damage in this matchup? Mario has quite a few true combos because of Fox's fall speed.

Fox's racking up damage game is just as good as Mario's from what I believe. Dthrow to Fairs if you read Mario's DI correctly, is quick % from there. Of course if he does land a Dair, it'll be followed up with utilts whichs makes mario most likely 40%s.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario's N-air should easily trade hits with any of Fox's aerials.

Fox doesn't have any good throws.

 

[Vyyruss]

I have fought a relitively good fox, Fox can combo Mario pretty easy if you're not excepting it/
not paying attention. He usually uses his down air approach to attack you. I noticed alot of fox's
will also run up to you and try to shield grab. Another thing to watch out for is Fox's back air.
It's quick and has alot of kill potential. Fox's tend to try to lure with the pea shooter, but we have
enough ways around this. I also noticed, fox can dthrow into his Fair even at High percentages
without proper DI this can be a killing blow. Fox can also juggle mario with up tilt, without
proper DI.

 

[A2ZOMG]

F-air can be easily SDIed. Just saying.

 

[Judge Judy]

Fox's main ways of racking up dmg are Dair follow-ups (Dair to Utilt is a true combo), blaster, and Utilt lock, which is less "reliable" than Mario's Utilt lock. Mario has fireball spam, fireball setups, Utilt lock, lots of aerial chains, and Dair follow-ups, although not quite as good as Fox's Dair follow-ups. Mario can also true combo into his Up B.

Seriously though, Fox really doesn't have much else for racking up dmg besides Dair.

 

[Zhamy]

Seriously though, Fox really doesn't have much else for racking up dmg besides Dair.

Oh? Fox's Bair and Nair are quite potent , Fair is pretty good (will usually land at least 2 or 3 hits, all of them if you're not careful to SDI properly), and Dthrow sets up for some good aerial tech chase. Blaster isn't really for racking up damage, by the way, but the extra few percent doesn't hurt.

Fox's game is as much about proper spacing to land hits as it is raw damage output. Anyway, looks like I won't have time to type anything up about the aerial game; sorry.

Good luck with the rest of your matchup discussions.