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They don't stop or force an approach, they're too easy to Pshield when the opponent is approaching. That, and they're too easy to swat away if there's nothing to punish the lag of the opponent's attack behind it. I don't see how it builds said "walls" if they're so easy to deal with alone. The best thing about fireballs are that they force reactions; reactions that you can predict and punish as an approach.
I didn't say they made great walls but having two out at once at different trajectories still works farily well, fireballs are still definetely way better for approach though. Also, HeroMystic's point is good.
Yeah, that's true. Dealing with 2 out at the same time is a little different, especially if the opponent is airborne. I just know that everytime I try to camp or spam extensively with them, it always blows up in my face, especially if they have a projectile as well.
Trust me. Mario can camp. If you trained as much as I did against DDD you'd be saying he can camp too.
It takes a lot of patience and proficient reflex to camp with Mario. Using the cape to stop projectiles and using fireballs in an intelligent spammy matter is the way you have to force an approach.You'll have to show me, because Monk does it too right? I'd have to see it done, maybe we can play when you get home XDTrust me. Mario can camp. If you trained as much as I did against DDD you'd be saying he can camp too.
It's all in my metagame analysis if you want more information.
It's true that ROB is weak from below, which is where the whole "Mario racks up damage better" thing comes from. Perhaps his weakness is being overstated, though. His little momentum shifts with DAir/BAir are enough to throw off Mario somewhat, being that the plumber doesn't have a whole lot of range to compensate for misplacement, and air dodging is... what it is. Beyond a fresh stock, virtually nothing we can do is a true combo and thus ROB can at least attempt to maneuver himself out of the juggle. The ball is in Mario's court but not every pop-up is going to lead to another 40% on poor ROB.
It's actually just like Marth or MK in one regard -- ROB can certainly space himself cautiously to avoid OOS retaliation by Mario. ROB doesn't have quite the vertical tolerance on his FAir, so it's possible for Mario to "beat" it in that regard, more likely "under" than "over", but Mario isn't going to just shield-camp his way to victory any more than he would Fireball camp as some other people suggested. :/ And ROB's FAir is ever-so-slightly disjointed, or at least that's what Sudai told me. *ahem* (It doesn't look disjointed, then again neither do Snake's tilts.)
Newsflash: Fox and Sheik DO have crappy recoveries. (Fox actually has better distance than Falco/Wolf, but it's still oh-so linear and gimpable.) Kirby not so much as he has great total distance, he can cover himself with his full range of aerials, and his Side-B makes him dangerous to approach directly.
Intelligent rationing of fuel makes most stage spikes survivable (if only once since that would burn a lot of fuel
) or the opponent could just tech it. That said, Mario has a pretty tough time around ROB's UAir so I'm not sure the risk is even significant to him.Luigi's recovery isn't that great either. ;/ At any rate, that wasn't an insult. My point was that ROB will not fall for the easy things Mario does to gimp other recoveries. DK? Cape 'em when he does his Up-B. Ike? Cape 'em either way, same with many other characters. Gimping ROB isn't that simple, Mario has to work pretty hard to successfully gimp him. That's all I meant.
Mario may be able to reach that low technically speaking, but can he do so against competition? ROB commands a lot of space with UAir (or NAir) and Mario will lose if he tries to go up against it directly, it would be unwise of him to even issue that challenge. Alternatively, ROB does have the option you presented...
NAir kills off the top more so than the side, so position on the stage is only relevant if you're being hit to the far side and can DI diagonally-downward. (And as people generally DI upward, it does take good reflexes.) It generally starts killing light-medium weight characters around 120% at ground level. It can kill as low as ~100 if you land it in the air, depending where. (Higher is always better. Off-stage makes for lower kills too, since it opens up the possibility for a side kill and recovering opponents are generally DI-ing upward anyway.) The hitbox is ginormous and also lasts long enough to punish all but the most perfect of spot/air dodges, so it's especially difficult to avoid while airborne.
T'was talking about the other way around. If ROB recovers low and comes in near-vertically with a UAir, Mario is not well-equipped to edgeguard it: he can't beat the attack head-on, it eats through Fireballs, and Cape won't push him away because his horizontal momentum is minimal. ROB can't sweetspot the ledge in the middle of the attack, so he's not absolutely 100% safe, but Mario has a hard time taking advantage of that fact.
With good DI and aerial cancelling momentum, a "perfect" FSmash is survivable up to about 125%, a "bad" one over 140%. (Henceforth, assume "good DI" also includes cancelling momentum.) Actual kill percentage can vary a good +/- 20% depending how far off-center you are and whether you're hitting them to the near or far side.
Well...I've already read the entire post...and I don't want you to think that I'm responding to the "former" rather than the "latter"....so I'm gonna leave this one alone.
Except when your numerical facts contradict the experience of EVERY Mario main arguing and is just plain wrong while you're claiming it to be true, you have to wonder how often you fight Mario as ROB.
Well, for the sake of the argument I'll be inclined to agree with you until I'm convinced of these walls Judge and Hero referred to.Fireballs don't really force an approach. They're very easily powershielded or cancelled by any quick attack. Mario needs to follow up and try to punish any openings this creates, the Fireballs alone don't do a whole lot. This is pretty much just restating what Matador said, though. *shrug* Might work on Dedede because he's so big, slow, and lacks an efficient attack to cancel Fireballs with.
Very true, it's not ALWAYS going to be **** if Mario's in position...but just know that we're talking about highest level of play. If you're in that position against Boss, Bo, or any other good Mario main, they're not letting you go.
I haven't a clue whether or not the ROBs I've faced have spaced perfectly on my shield, but Dair, Bair, Uair, upB (on occasion), and reverse pivot hyphen spinny **** Usmash OOS usually work on ROB and Marth. Not MK of course because...you know...he's a bas****.
I was talking strictly distance, not gimpability or defenses. If Mario doesn't make it back to the ledge without being gimped, Fox, Shiek, and often Kirby won't be returning either.
Well if you want to use THAT argument, SDs also "just happen", as well as not sweetspotting the ledge or running into fully charged smashes. Bad DI does happen, but it shouldn't be put into this matchup discussion in any shape or form, this is at highest level of competition.
If Mario runs off the side of FD as ROB vertically rises with his Uair, isn't he avoiding Uair while in perfect position for a Bair spike? Also, Mario moves faster than ROB, so positioning this isn't very difficult. Of course, it's not always going to work out this way and all that, but my point is that it's still a concern unless ROB is close enough to the ledge to hit Mario as he's running offstage.Intelligent rationing of fuel makes most stage spikes survivable (if only once since that would burn a lot of fuel
Alright, my mistake.
Alright, but if you're including that in the equation, we might as well include how low Mario's Fsmash kills off the side when near/on one of the ledges as you're recovering, getting up from the ledge, or just happen to be there when it hits. I'm not sure how low it kills ROB, but I've killed Snakes, Bowsers, and DKs from that positioning at 90%.
Except that it's much faster, and Mario moves must faster with it since he's usually running as he does it. This is no exception to Usmash OOS.
Too slow? And you're arguing Nair against it? I'll address the sweetspot thing later.
He's limited to pretty much just Bair spiking, but not much else, so I agree. This still makes recovering high safer than low.
Sounds about right.Anyway... did my own numbers test with Mario and ROB on FD:
Tilted upward and sweetspotted, Mario's FSmash kills at 101% with no DI from center-stage. (Huh. Well...) Non-uptilted or non-sweetspot kill at 108%, non-uptilted and non-sweetspot at 118%. So, don't forget to tilt it upward.
Did you hit with the sweetspot in the back of his head at the start of the attack? That's what makes the reverse hyphen spinny Usmash so much better than the normal.
Lol, you don't normally DI Nair, just like you don't DI upward vs an Usmash. If Nair generally kills upward, why would you DI upward?
Sounds correct as well, though I've lived higher. I wasn't aware it had a tipper.
Yeah, I've learned that ROB's Usmash is right next to ridiculous in kill power.
I still don't agree that ROB's KO options are easier to land. His best one by far is slow and telegraphed, and also kills later. It has great range, of course, but compared to Mario's Fsmash or Usmash which have setups and are faster AND the former killing lower, I don't see how he is better at killing; even with edgeguarding in the mix.
BO X7 (ROB) and I (Mario) were having a Wi-Fi match on Pictochat when that happened. It was sweet indeed.
-_-BO X7 (ROB) and I (Mario) were having a Wi-Fi match on Pictochat when that happened. It was sweet indeed.
(Sarcasm aside, that is true.) It's not like I have anyone else present so it's rather difficult for me to test something that really requires two players. That said, anecdotal evidence with a single Wi-Fi match doesn't prove anything. What was the spacing? Were they vertically even or slightly off-center? Were they at the fringe of each other's attack range? I'm guessing they weren't actually testing this and just thought "oh wow they traded hits" when it occured during a normal match, when it was more likely due to improper spacing. If any of you want to actually test this, be my guest (and report the results), but don't berate me based on a single anecdote over Wi-Fi. Get into Training or a Brawl, throw the attacks at each other at various spacings and timings, and record those results over multiple trials.Well, I certainly can't argue that ROB is weak from below; we've repeated this ad nauseum. But come on, the ROB player isn't any more willing to let Mario just rack up damage on him than the Mario player is going to just let him back to the ground safely. ROB doesn't fall super-fast like Snake or anything, but it's not like he's going to accrue massive damage every single time Mario gets him into the air. He'll do that rarely. Sometimes, ROB will get back safely with no additional harm and we can expect the "average" juggle to be somewhere in the middle. I'd rather have Mario trying to juggle me than Dedede trying to CG me...
I've never seen Kirby fail to return from a survivable attack. Fox and especially Sheik are crappy. Heck, anyone that CAN'T recover from anywhere has "crappy" distance for Brawl standards.
Even the best players aren't perfect and imperfect DI is a fairly common boo-boo. Get hit in the middle of an attack and you're liable to DI in that direction, whether it's useful or not. Since you're probably DI-ing toward your opponent to initiate the attack this is usually easy to respond and adjust from, but maybe you got hit as you started a DSmash and just DI-ed yourself straight horizontal. Maybe ROB unexpectedly caught the end of your roll with his BAir and you were holding to the side. If you're hit during recovery, you are naturally going to be DI an attack up and toward your opponent because (1) you're already holding that direction (2) you want to avoid the near side boundary. That's not really "bad" DI, since that's what you need to do, but it's exactly how ROB can kill sub-120 with his NAir, especially if you're caught above stage level.
I did include Mario's potential to kill sooner than normal. "Actual kill percentage can vary a good +/- 20% depending how far off-center you are and whether you're hitting them to the near or far side." Mario could kill at 90% if he catches ROB on ledge recovery but he could also fail to kill at 150% in the same position if he hits ROB to the far side of the stage. And as far as landing it is concerned, it's like trying to land Ness or Sonic's FSmash... *cough*
I already knew this to tell you the truth.
At low% Rob gets juggled pretty badly. His % is gonna climb quickly. I agree with what your saying to the point where Rob's % is high enough not to be juggled so easily.
Luigi juggles ROB better than Mario (true), but you think Mario has the advantage on him and Luigi has a disadvantage? That's the crux of your argument in favor of Mario, so if Luigi can do the same thing even better it's safe to assume that Luigi performs similarly well. Mario has the added advantage of a competent reflector to diminish ROB's projectile game, but Luigi makes up for that in other areas (namely, killing much easier) that a significant difference in match-up ratios doesn't seem to make sense. Would you elaborate?
If the two attacks traded hits, it doesn't matter. That means it ISNT disjointed or else that wouldn't have happened, it doesn't outrange Bair or it would've went straight through, and that the trajectory matters little, because neither attack is multihit or has a lingering hitbox.It's been my experience that ROB's FAir generally wins out.
Although it would pain me if it were true, trading hits still advantages ROB. That doesn't help my argument but it's useful information for a real match.
If you disagree with me at this point regarding who kills who easier, then so be it. *shrug* It's arguable either way, opinions will come down to bias and personal experience.
Its been repeated because it's unique to this matchup and a crucial point. You said yourself that the only thing ROB can do to escape is airdodge, which is reactive; ROB moves slow enough that you don't need to predict where he's moving, just react once you see where he's going. If you know that, you need only toss an aerial, grab, or jab in that direction and there's nothing ROB can do about it. That's very bad, like a melee Marth combo on Bowser.
That's quite a bit of characters with crappy recoveries then.
Not that this even matters because, as I said before, ROB will very rarely be knocking Mario at the right angle for him to be unable to recover, BUT:
Okay, but you're factoring in player faults. If you can't react fast enough when you're hit to DI in the right direction, then it's not an issue of character vs character, which is what we're discussing. That's why it's similar to adding SDs or controller malfunctions into the mix.
My mistake, I thought it referred to sweetspot/Utilted and when it's not.
I agree here. Even so, I don't think it's easier to land than either of Mario's KO options.
Not really a point in arguing this either. I think it's fast, you think it's slow. I think the range is pretty decent, you think it's small. I doubt there's much I can say to change your opinion.
I thought you said it had one Hero?
. Yes, I'm too lazy to summarize this character.
There is.
Trading hits advantages ROB because it means ROB and Mario are taking damage at a similar rate, compared to the assumption that Mario normally racks up damage better due to his juggling.
It's every bit as relevant as ROB having a blind spot below him; Mario's weak recovery is something ROB can take advantage of. He can't go very far below stage level or he won't make it back, he can't go high at all, his Cape doubles as his only protection and position stall. That doesn't make edgeguarding Mario an afterthought, as his Cape does its job quite well and his Up-B is difficult to intercept, but his recovery is limited.
Fair enough, that's all I wanted to know. (I may or may not agree but that's another topic.)
His Fsmash, and when shutter stepped it ***** Luigi's range.
Luigi's Legs are longer.. But since this is brawl there are gay hit boxes. Mario's Bair strangely has more range. I may have to do more tests though.
Either way, it does more damage near the head, which you didn't test.
Not really. Trading hits just means that you can't zone or space vs Mario with Fair like you thought you could. If anything, trading hits helps Mario, since before we thought it just went through.
Touche'
Again, you're wrong. All of his smashes have more range as well as his reverse Uair and upB for all intents and purposes. Doesn't really matter very much since Cape outranges/ outprioritizes everything Luigi has.
Homo alert ^^. But it's true though :]Matt, you're our *****.
No one does it because we know you're going to.
We love you though
