MATCH UPS....throw anything you got.....

[Matt07]

Lol Mystic.

 

[hippiedude92]

If rob uses upb and attacks while using it.. Mario can just use Fludd, (Fludd induced hitlag), and that's like a basic free setup there...

 

[DRaGZ]

If rob uses upb and attacks while using it.. Mario can just use Fludd, (Fludd induced hitlag), and that's like a basic free setup there...

Except why would R.O.B. ever recover anywhere but from below against Mario?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm pretty sure Mario has fireball and N-air edgeguard on ROB if ROB recovers from below. Just saying.

 

[HeroMystic]

Except why would R.O.B. ever recover anywhere but from below against Mario?

You want to go High...

Mario loves it when opponents go low...

 

[Matt07]

If opponents go above me I usually use SJP when they reach the stage cause I'm deseperate for damage ROFL.

 

[hippiedude92]

If rob goes above, either way, Mario's still doing his job in pushing Rob offstage, and he still gets affected by fludd either way..

What does Rob's gimping abilities have anyways? Don't really see anything special tbh.

 

[Matt07]

If your off the edge, and at low percents, he will constantly lose f-air's to gimp you. There goes a stock.His d-air has a crazy hitbox, and since Mario's recovery is telegraphed it should be too hard to hit Mario with his d-air.

 

[BoTastic!]

I get hit by Rob's Dair, less than 5% of the time. Its so slow. I also can't connect with it. I only use it to stall.

 

[Matt07]

I get hit from it, time to time. I'm really nervous recovering against R.O.B due to his d-air alone, which leads me to be a bit predictable.

 

[hippiedude92]

Fair walls shouldn't pose a threat which can be easily DI'd away. The only thing I can see is him forcing Mario to use a second jump, from all the lazerz and gyros then a fair wall. Or if your really sloppy, a dair spike, but really, the only thing I've been gimped is a stage spiked :/

 

[Matt07]

Dang you guys are better at ROB then I am, I loathe ROB, I always lose to them. I can never shield grab his aerials due to the lingering hitbox (n-air anyone?) uugh, such a bad match-up for me. Also is spot dodge, and roll, is extremely hard to punish.

 

[HeroMystic]

You can just D-air the spotdodge, Matt. XD

D-air pretty much kills the Spotdodge -> D-Smash addictions all the ROBs seem to have.

 

[Matt07]

Haha yea, if I wasn't so angry fighting them all the time I could actually use my head and think xD. Also, juggling ROB is harder then it sounds. He can airdodge out of the first one, I tried countless times to u-air juggle the most I got in was like 3, they can DI out of u-air too, right?

IMO I'd put this match-up 40-60 to ROB (100:0 100=ROB, 0=Me) but...maybe they're just better on WiFi .

 

[BoTastic!]

Rob is very hard to play online. Offline, he isn't hard to me at all.

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

I play Boss... ALOT.

Mario and ROB is relativly even, but the plumber definitely has an advantage.. Mario can Utilt ROB and combo him [really any large toon] to very high %'s, and ROB really doesn't have the same ultility in this fight. ROB can get some gimps due to Mario's poor recovery.. but if the Mario camps with Fireballs.. the ROB player won't be able to get in..

MARIO CAN OUT CAMP ROB.

MARIO CAN OUT COMBO ROB.

rob gimps mario.

rob dies slowly.


That is all.


Good Day Sirs.

 

[Face124]

Boss8, can you not put the little ratio thing beside every chars name? it would make it easier.

 

[Mr.E]

Aha, there's Ch0zen! Don't know what this johning about Fireballs is, though. They have poor range for camping, are easily cancelled by any attack, and ROB can punish with a more damaging charged Laser or Gyro if Mario gets a little too overzealous. The only "camping" going on should be ROB zoning with his superior melee range, like Marth or MK do ad nauseum, as both have the tools to prevent the other from projectile camping.

Rob can't camp Mario. =/

I don't enjoy an argument where my opponent continues to insult me and put words in my mouth. My point was that MARIO can camp the two other characters you mentioned (Ike and DK) because they lack a projectile but Mario can't play that way against ROB or he'll just get return fire. Both have to rely more on their melee game.

Please stop underestimating Mario's killing potential. I've killed Rob around 110% with a fresh Fsmash. Mario can kill Rob. So killing isn't really much of a problem as much as you say it is.

But where on the stage? Bad DI? Fully charged? 110% is much earlier than normal, the actual kill range is more normally 130-150. :/ I've nabbed kills at 80% with ROB by catching people high with an NAir but that's not a regular thing and I would never attempt to argue that "omg ROB can kill at 80% what a BEAST!" At any rate, 110-120 is when ROB normally starts getting kills at ground level with NAir himself. BAir starts to become an outright kill at that range too and ROB still has more options once you hit the ~150 range.

Don't even try that "well you don't play Mario" crap this time, that's pure numerical data anyone can find or research themselves; his FSmash just isn't that strong, period. This goes for the "well we've found ways around Mario's poor range" crap too -- we know that. Even certain strong characters have problems with range, namely Wario, but that doesn't mean it isn't a valid concern.

Like i said before Mario's Fsmash is stronger than you think. Also if you knew more about Mario you'll know that his Fair, Bair, and even his Uair have potential to kill. I agree with you with Mario's recovery, but when above stage his recovery is less predictable. A good Mario is not going to recover low much.

It isn't stronger than I think, it's exactly as strong as I know. FAir is fairly weak as a knockaway attack, it's more useful as a spike... which ROB plain stomps out with his Up-B. BAir is Mario's bread-and-butter aerial, like ROB's FAir or DK's BAir, so it's likely to be stale anyway and isn't even the most impressive kill move while fresh. (It would be like me claiming ROB's DSmash is a kill move. It is technically, but not one of note.) UAir... ahaha no, not even fresh.

Mario does protect himself well during recovery with the Cape and I understand he won't be recovering low unless he must. (i.e. He's knocked far enough away and low enough that he needs every inch to make it back.) But one mistimed Cape and Mario is dead. One well-placed NAir or BAir can still get around the Cape as well, though NAir is just damage-racking with its high trajectory. Contrast this to vice-versa, where Mario needs to outsmart ROB three or four times with perfectly timed Capes, FLUDD, FAir/BAir before he gets the gimp.

Nothing is impossible when it comes to gimping. Also i hope you do realize how far Mario can be below stage and still make it back up? He can jump down, use a full charge fludd and still make it back on the stage. He can do this with fireballs as well. Also, i have stage spiked too many robs who tried to recover from below.

So Mario can... jump off-stage, throw out one thing, and then has to recover back to the ledge? Talk about vertical mastery! Marth can do that too, with the key difference being that he can actually beat ROB in the air. ROB mows through Fireballs like nothing and his aerials solidly beat Mario. FLUDD is only about equivalent to knocking ROB away with a half-stale BAir, granted it's easy to use but hardly some gamebreaking edgeguard that magically drains ROB of his entire fuel reserve.

If rob uses upb and attacks while using it.. Mario can just use Fludd, (Fludd induced hitlag), and that's like a basic free setup there...

Mario can't follow up on it anyway, he has no off-stage game and needs to get back to the ledge after using FLUDD. If Mario is using it on-stage, then ROB has no need to throw an attack out because Mario isn't near him. FIHL is probably the most overrated excuse for an AT I've ever heard in this game anyway.

"I'm pretty sure Mario has fireball and N-air edgeguard on ROB if ROB recovers from below. Just saying."

"Mario loves it when opponents go low..."

ROB's aerials eat through Fireballs and every one of Mario's own aerials. (And Mario's NAir would just rack up a little damage anyway, the trajectory would pop ROB right back up to the stage.) Mario also can't go very far down, ROB can come up from much lower than Mario can even reach.

Not that going high is that bad either... ROB just has to use the ledge to his advantage to keep Mario from getting too "under" him and can then space a descending FAir or land on the stage behind Mario depending on how far Mario commits. Perhaps more risky in that it's still giving Mario free reign at his underbelly, though, but surely removes what little risk there is of getting gimped. *shrug*

 

[Judge Judy]

Aha, there's Ch0zen! Don't know what this johning about Fireballs is, though. They have poor range for camping, are easily cancelled by any attack, and ROB can punish with a more damaging charged Laser or Gyro if Mario gets a little too overzealous. The only "camping" going on should be ROB zoning with his superior melee range, like Marth or MK do ad nauseum, as both have the tools to prevent the other from projectile camping.

Fireballs aren't great for camping but they aren't terrible either; fireballs' range is decent plus you can build "walls" with them due to their trajectory and spamability (Yah, not a real word). We also have the FLUDD as well.

I don't enjoy an argument where my opponent continues to insult me and put words in my mouth. My point was that MARIO can camp the two other characters you mentioned (Ike and DK) because they lack a projectile but Mario can't play that way against ROB or he'll just get return fire. Both have to rely more on their melee game.

True, but Mario's cape makes it very unsafe for R.O.B to return fire since fireballs have very little lag; they'll both need to try rely more on melee atks but Mario still can force R.O.B. to approach in the long run.

But where on the stage? Bad DI? Fully charged? 110% is much earlier than normal, the actual kill range is more normally 130-150. :/ I've nabbed kills at 80% with ROB by catching people high with an NAir but that's not a regular thing and I would never attempt to argue that "omg ROB can kill at 80% what a BEAST!" At any rate, 110-120 is when ROB normally starts getting kills at ground level with NAir himself.

Sweetspotted Fsmash tilted up kills early, try it from the center of FD.

Don't even try that "well you don't play Mario" crap this time, that's pure numerical data anyone can find or research themselves; his FSmash just isn't that strong, period. This goes for the "well we've found ways around Mario's poor range" crap too -- we know that. Even certain strong characters have problems with range, namely Wario, but that doesn't mean it isn't a valid concern.

Mario's Fsmash is very powerful, saying otherwise is just dumb; from the center of FD it kills most characters around 90% and heavier characters around 100-110%. Anyway, Mario doesn't have that much of a range issue since he still has many atks with good reach and fireballs can pick up some of the slack for spacing and approach.

It isn't stronger than I think, it's exactly as strong as I know. FAir is fairly weak as a knockaway attack, it's more useful as a spike... which ROB plain stomps out with his Up-B. BAir is Mario's bread-and-butter aerial, like ROB's FAir or DK's BAir, so it's likely to be stale anyway and isn't even the most impressive kill move while fresh. (It would be like me claiming ROB's DSmash is a kill move. It is technically, but not one of note.) UAir... ahaha, no.

Uair's "sweetspot" has decent killing power, I myself wouldn't use Bair as a kill move though. Fair is used for it's meteor but it still has a bit more horizontal knockback than Bair when "sourspotted".

Mario does protect himself well during recovery with the Cape and I understand he won't be recovering low unless he must. (He's knocked far enough away and low enough that he needs every inch to make it back.) But one mistimed Cape and Mario is dead. One well-placed NAir or BAir can still get around the Cape as well, though NAir is just damage-racking with its high trajectory. Contrast this to vice-versa, where Mario needs to outsmart ROB three or four times with perfectly timed Capes, FLUDD, FAir/BAir before he gets the gimp.

Pretty much.

So Mario can... jump off-stage, throw out one thing, and then has to recover back to the ledge? Talk about vertical mastery! Marth can do that too, with the key difference being that he can actually beat ROB in the air. ROB mows through Fireballs like nothing and his aerials solidly beat Mario. FLUDD is only about equivalent to knocking ROB away with a half-stale BAir, granted it's easy to use but hardly some gamebreaking edgeguard that magically drains ROB of his entire fuel reserve.

Mario can stay out a lot longer Marth can, and Mario's Bair is very good against R.O.B.'s Fair; Mario can throw out a lot more things than one aerial lol. Fireballs are also a lot harder to get around than you give them credit for.

Mario can't follow up on it anyway, he has no off-stage game and needs to get back to the ledge after using FLUDD. If Mario is using it on-stage, then ROB has no need to throw an attack out because Mario isn't near him.

Ok, now this is just false, Mario off-stage game is actually very good.

"I'm pretty sure Mario has fireball and N-air edgeguard on ROB if ROB recovers from below. Just saying."

"Mario loves it when opponents go low..."

ROB's aerials eat through Fireballs and every one of Mario's own aerials. (And Mario's NAir would just rack up a little damage anyway, the trajectory would put ROB right back up to the stage.) Mario also can't go very far down, ROB can come up from much lower than Mario can even reach.

Fireballs really are a lot better than you give them credit for...anyway, R.O.B. can go down further than Mario but Mario can actually go very far down. Also, the downwards cape glide is a good way to quickly chase opponents who try recover from below.

Not that going high is that bad either... ROB just has to use the ledge to his advantage to keep Mario from getting too "under" him and can then space a descending FAir or land on the stage behind Mario depending on how far Mario commits. Perhaps more risky in that it's still giving Mario free reign at his underbelly, though, but surely removes what little risk there is of getting gimped. *shrug*

Pretty much.

 

[BoTastic!]

But where on the stage? Bad DI? Fully charged? 110% is much earlier than normal, the actual kill range is more normally 130-150. :/ I've nabbed kills at 80% with ROB by catching people high with an NAir but that's not a regular thing and I would never attempt to argue that "omg ROB can kill at 80% what a BEAST!" At any rate, 110-120 is when ROB normally starts getting kills at ground level with NAir himself. BAir starts to become an outright kill at that range too and ROB still has more options once you hit the ~150 range.

Don't even try that "well you don't play Mario" crap this time, that's pure numerical data anyone can find or research themselves; his FSmash just isn't that strong, period. This goes for the "well we've found ways around Mario's poor range" crap too -- we know that. Even certain strong characters have problems with range, namely Wario, but that doesn't mean it isn't a valid concern.

Really.. I just tested it right now. With or without DI. Mario's Fsmash kills rob around 110-120% at the center of FD. It even kills sooner on Battlefield and Smashville. Which are heavy counter picks towards Rob.

And Rob can not camp Mario. The cape prevents a rob from laser and Gyro spamming. That's quite easy to see.

 

[boss8]

Boss8, can you not put the little ratio thing beside every chars name? it would make it easier.

all man now i hafe to go back to like every page and see....>_> ok i will get to that...

 

[Face124]

all man now i hafe to go back to like every page and see....>_> ok i will get to that...

thanks much, and sorry XD It'll be a lot easier to find out what matchups to practice more. thanks again.

 

[Takeshi245]

Really.. I just tested it right now. With or without DI. Mario's Fsmash kills rob around 110-120% at the center of FD. It even kills sooner on Battlefield and Smashville. Which are heavy counter picks towards Rob.

And Rob can not camp Rob. The cape prevents a rob from laser spamming. That's quite easy to see.

You mean ROB can't outcamp Mario. In any case, I've seen a lot of the agruments Mr. E made shattered. If he can't see it now, well...too bad for him.

 

[BoTastic!]

Lol i said Rob. Fixed.

 

[hippiedude92]

Look at that it's chozen. Can I has your autograph? *serious*

 

[Judge Judy]

Look at that it's chozen. Can I has your autograph? *serious*

He's almost as rare to see as ???????, now if only Fear was here...

 

[Mr.E]

Really.. I just tested it right now. With or without DI. Mario's Fsmash kills rob around 110-120% at the center of FD. It even kills sooner on Battlefield and Smashville. Which are heavy counter picks towards Rob.

And Rob can not camp Mario. The cape prevents a rob from laser and Gyro spamming. That's quite easy to see.

If that is the case, then fair enough. At least to Mario's credit, his FSmash is about the only thing he has with respectable range too. ROB still has better killing power in this matchup since NAir is roughly equal in power but easier to land, let alone the edgeguarding difference and more numerous secondary kill moves.

And I wish you would stop presuming that I'm saying ROB can camp Mario. The Cape is a perfectly good reflector and ROB can't just sit back flinging projectiles, we all get that. The simple fact that ROB has projectiles means Mario must keep his Cape at the ready, he can't just spam Fireballs all day because ROB is more than willing to trade hits with projectiles. ROB will be the aggressor anyway, due to winning direct clashes and having his projectile game marginalized, but he doesn't have to let Mario dictate the pace of the match and force him to be super-aggressive. No, he can punish Mario if he's too aggressive with his Fireball game and can afford to be careful with his approach.

Mario can stay out a lot longer Marth can, and Mario's Bair is very good against R.O.B.'s Fair; Mario can throw out a lot more things than one aerial lol. Fireballs are also a lot harder to get around than you give them credit for.

The thing of note I wanted to respond to:

ROB's FAir beats Mario's BAir in a direct clash, but Mario can land some hits if he's slightly off-set from ROB's steely arms in either direction (up or down). It's part of what makes ROB not-entirely-impenetrable in the fight on-stage, though ROB still has the one-up since he does win head-on.

Fireballs aren't hard to "get around" at all because ROB doesn't have to go around them. He can just plow right through them with an aerial, which gives Mario fits because ROB's aerials beat his and he still has to out-space ROB to land an aerial even following a Fireball. As far as recovery is concerned, Mario has no answer to ROB's UAir and even the Cape won't do much since he'll be coming in almost vertically (no horizontal momentum to reverse).

 

[Judge Judy]

Fireballs aren't hard to "get around" at all because ROB doesn't have to go around them. He can just plow right through them with an aerial, which gives Mario fits because ROB's aerials beat his and he still has to out-space ROB to land an aerial even following a Fireball. As far as recovery is concerned, Mario has no answer to ROB's UAir and even the Cape won't do much since he'll be coming in almost vertically (no horizontal momentum to reverse).

One word, FLUDD.

 

[Kidlat]

Dair > Uair pretty much messes up any spotdodge..........

 

[cHooKay]

Mr. E....

Mario ***** Rob with fireballs, ie especially from above. A full hopped fireball approach/camp seriously destroys rob, mario can throw out more fireballs than rob can counter with his arials.

And uhh I don't think a mario mainer would even be that dumb as to clash attacks as such, and plus mario's bair comes out quicker....

And that who Uair thing...... air dodge?

 

[Mr.E]

That reply was so bad I don't even know what to make out of it, so I'll just respond to your statement.

And that who Uair thing...... air dodge?

You're going to edgeguard ROB with AIR DODGING? -_----------------

 

[Ray/Boshi]

Mario has multiple attacks to edgegaurd Rob with. Even if he can't gimp him, he'll have done some damage at the least. Not saying Rob has nothing he can do when he's recovering. He can get fairly offensive. But all in all it's in his best interest to recover with at least some gas left. Otherwise he's screwed.

 

[BoTastic!]

What Mario spams fireballs all day? A bad one. When i play friendlies against Silva's Mario with my rob. I **** him because he thinks fireballs help out if he spams him, when he should only be using them to create openings.

 

[BoTastic!]

That reply was so bad I don't even know what to make out of it, so I'll just respond to your statement.



You're going to edgeguard ROB with AIR DODGING? -_----------------

I think he meant the Uair can be avoided from air dodging. The frames during the air dodge animation are enough to avoid the entire attack.

crap.. double post.

 

[MBlaze]

ROB ****s me because he's my overall worst match-up (Not against characters, me), I have a hell of a lot of trouble so I'ma stop being offensive after I combo and play real gay. ;P

 

[Hylian]

Per request.

 

[Matador]

I apologize for being late. I think I'll add my 2 cents here.

Let's clear up some misconceptions first:

Fireballs LOL. Don't get me wrong, they're a generally good move, but they're not creating any sort of amazing opening in this matchup. ROB can cancel Fireballs with his FAir... which also pretty much beats every melee attack Mario has. His range flat-out ***** Mario.

It's not like Mario's fireballs don't create openings in practically every matchup; it's what they do and is no exception in this matchup. I would be surprised if ROB had a move that DIDN'T cancel out fireballs. The fact of the matter is that fireballs force you to react. Be it throwing out a Fair, Pshielding, or dodging, if you need to react to or go out of your way to stop it, its done its job. You cancel it out with Fair or Dtilt or whatever, and I come in and punish the lag or w/e. It serves no other purpose.

ROB is killing sooner than Mario. Mario's killing power is quite possibly even worse than ROB, he's lighter and he's gimped more easily, nowhere does Mario has the advantage in this regard.

No, I'm sorry. This is just wrong. There's no point in trying to explain why you're wrong, it's so plainly obvious.

Mario does not effectively gimp ROB; that's okay, few do. The scant possibility that he can is still more than most characters can muster but don't overrate Mario's chances here. Remember that ROB can still attack through his Up-B and beat Mario away or cancel his Fireballs. Mario can't tread far from the stage, doesn't have the vertical distance of ROB and can't challenge him directly, so there's not much hope of an outright gimp. Mario's strength here is... simply keeping him on the ledge and off solid ground. That may lead to a gimp if you play your cards right but he's likely to get back on eventually, especially since he beats Mario in direct confrontation.

Mario can stay offstage pretty long with cape to stall. His vertical recovery is not bad...at all. You can fastfall a Dair and easily make it back to the stage very quickly, making it hard to punish.

My point, Mario can gimp ROB. Not as well as ROB can gimp Mario, but it's not relying on luck which is what you're implying. Mario has an answer to everything ROB does during recovery, he needs only to predict correctly or be prepared with a charged Fludd.

So what makes this so much in favor of Mario? Personally speaking, I don't think it really is. Mario has a tough time getting inside as ROB significantly outranges him, including his best attack for cancelling out Mario's Fireballs which are an integral part of his approach game. ROB cannot projectile camp Mario but he still zones the crap out of him at melee range (i.e. like Marth) and Mario has no real answer for it. Throw in ROB's superior edgeguarding and killing power, it actually looks like it's in ROB's favor.

I agree, getting inside ROB's range is most of the battle, but it's never that hard, especially since Mario is generally faster than him.

ROB can edgeguard Mario, but not well enough for it to give him the killing adv over Mario. He can gimp Mario much better than most can, but not to that extent.

But I'm not stupid, I can see the flip side here. :/ ROB effectively keeps Mario at bay but will slowly rack up damage poking away, where Mario only needs to get in every 3rd or 4th approach and can equalize the percentages; Mario racks up damage very well when he does get inside. He takes very good advantage of ROB's blind spot beneath him and if he can't gimp him outright during recovery (most likely), he still makes it a struggle for ROB to get back on-stage and can rack up damage pushing him back to the ledge.

I'm not putting a number to it, but take that as you will.

The thing about comboing ROB with Mario is that there is NOTHING Rob can do about it until higher %. All of his aerials are too slow or awkward to hit Mario from below him, reducing his options to airdodging and...airdodging. Then, Mario's Fsmash, which kills ROB reliably at 110%, can finish him off.

Mario's main concern in this matchup is getting inside his range. Unfortunately for ROB, it's his ONLY concern. Not early kills, being comboed, being camped, and not even edgeguarding really.

The only move that doubles as damage-racker and kill move is NAir and that's only in matchups ROB needs it to space, like MK. Pretty much everything spaces Mario, FAir being the most relevant, so that's not an issue in this fight.

I agree, especially since throwing out Nair is pretty dangerous in this matchup.

NAir kills as soon or sooner than Mario's USmash, depending how high in the air the opponent is. It's also significantly easier to land with its gargantuan, lengthy hitbox. Mario's other Smashes aren't really any stronger than ROB's FSmash. (Mario FSmash kill at 100%? Maybe at the edge, against Jigglypuff...) None of his aerials are notable KO moves, so he can't chase; ROB can go basically anywhere with his Up-B and threaten an early NAir/BAir kill. ROB can also use his projectiles to edgeguard and even nab reasonable kills with a charged laser near the boundary. And then there's the weight advantage, which serves to balance out any advantage Mario may or may not have in racking up damage. No contest, ROB has better kill potential.

Here is where I see your argument slowly dying. Mario's Usmash is ridiculously easy to land and kills ROB at 140%staled and not sweetspotted. Fsmash kills at 110% easily from the middle of FD.

I don't know the exact % Nair kills but it's not 110%. Fsmash doesn't normally kill me until 160+ unless on the edge.

How does ROB possibly kill better than Mario?

Obviously, range is not the end-all of a match-up or Ike would be one of the best characters in the game and Wario would be bottom five. But there are other aspects to those matchups where Mario excels that he lacks against ROB, namely the ability to gimp them incredibly easily. Ike lacks an efficient way (read: fast attack) to cancel out Fireballs. ROB is also the only one of the three with projectiles which, if nothing else, prevents Mario from camping and forces him to be a little more prudent in his approach.

It's a combination of things, not just gimping. That's why Olimar is a bad matchup for Mario even though his recovery is probably the easiest to gimp by far. Your argument is wavering further.

I already conceded that Mario is at his best here, so what's the argument? But I would argue that ROB does a fair job of keeping even in damage, via superior spacing options (i.e. ROB racks up damage more steadily, Mario does it in big chunks), and you still have to make the kill... Which Mario is weak at. Granted that ROB is weak at killing too, but he has all the advantages in this regard: he's heavier, his best kill move (NAir) is the easiest one to land between the two, and he gimps better. Even if Mario can rack up damage faster than ROB, which is not an absolute given, he's just making up the disparity in killing potential.

Mario's not weak at killing...I don't know where you got this clearly false information.

And it IS an absolute given that he's racking up damage faster. When Mario's inside, there's nothing ROB can do. Not only is he faster in attack speed and movement speed, but he takes advantage of his blindspot. Again, the only problem is getting inside ROB's range, which isn't very difficult.

ROB isn't quite as rangy as DK but he still significantly out-does Mario, which is the only relevant fact surrounding the comparison.
If ROB properly spaces his FAir... Mario's aerials don't beat it, the only ground attack he has that does is FSmash (lol), and he avoids Mario's wussy grab range. While not impenetrable, there's not a gaping hole in his Fireball defense to exploit. He can also just punish with his own projectiles if you're not close enough while shooting them.

So what? All this means is that you don't try and fight ROB's Fair with one of Mario's aerials. This leaves OOS options, FIHL (Not sure if you're in the lag long enough to punish), cape, Fsmash or simply attacking over/under the Fair. He won't be zoning in this matchup like Marth or MK. The attack isn't even disjointed.

And you won't punish fireballs safely if the Mario isn't trying to camp or spam with them. Even if you Pshield, I don't see ROB having time to laser or gyro before Mario has time to react.

Well I've made no illusions about that, everyone knows ROB has crap killing power; Mario is just worse at it. FSmash has its weaknesses, as you pointed out, but it's still fairly fast with laser priority and can be glide-tossed into. NAir is really his best KO move, slow startup or not it's still difficult to avoid because its hitbox is just so large and lengthy. It's also the strongest kill move between either character.

I'm very sorry, but this is incorrect.

Mario has what... his Smashes? His FSmash and DSmash really aren't any stronger than ROB's FSmash, USmash is difficult to land mostly due to short range. Don't forget that ROB is also heavier, meaning Mario needs to rack up more damage to reach equal KO power, and he gimps Mario better than vice-versa. Heck, Mario has such poor recovery distance that sometimes he just flat-out can't make it back from low trajectories.

And now he has poor recovery? Not as good as ROB's, of course, but if the distance is too far for Mario, it's too far for characters like Kirby, Fox, or Shiek as well who have perfectly fine recoveries except with less defense upon approach. What does this have to do with the matchup anyway? ROB has no move that'd knock Mario at this kind of angle except for maybe Bair with bad DI. It seems like you're just taking shots at Mario to help your case.

I don't need to explain why the rest of this post is wrong. Thinking that ROB's Fsmash = Mario's Fsmash power, Mario's Fsmash and Dsmash are even REMOTELY close in KO power, or that Usmash is difficult to land is all sorts of fail.

Fireballs never give ROB a hard time, don't forget that ROB can still attack while thrusting and can cancel or avoid Fireballs at his leisure. (Alternatively, he could just eat the Fireball and keep going if the Fireball just happens to be absolutely perfectly positioned; it racks up minor damage but doesn't really eat up fuel or set Mario up for additional punishment.) Mario can't venture very far off-stage and he's no threat vertically, ROB can pretty much just avoid him, even FLUDD for the most part, by staying below-stage or higher than jump distance.

During recovery, I'll agree that fireballs do little to hinder his recovery. Mario isn't really as limited as you're saying offstage, especially with capestall in his repertoire. He also has capeglide if he needs to go far without using a jump, and Fludd onstage. But you're right, there's absolutely nothing Mario can do if ROB decides to recover high...but low's dangerous due to Bair/upB stage spikes.

I never said Mario can't gimp ROB; in fact, I specifically stated otherwise. It's just mostly an exercise in luck. Mario is very adept at gimping one-dimensional recoveries but ROB is too mobile to fall for those simple tricks and his distance makes him resilience to minor setbacks.

Luigi's recovery is one-dimensional? Hell...whose ISNT in this game?

..."simple tricks" he says....why are you trying to slip in these slick, petty insults toward Mr. Nintendo?

I don't enjoy an argument where my opponent continues to insult me and put words in my mouth. My point was that MARIO can camp the two other characters you mentioned (Ike and DK) because they lack a projectile but Mario can't play that way against ROB or he'll just get return fire. Both have to rely more on their melee game.

Mario can't camp with fireballs...at all. They suck for that purpose. They're for approaching, but not much else.

But where on the stage? Bad DI? Fully charged? 110% is much earlier than normal, the actual kill range is more normally 130-150. :/ I've nabbed kills at 80% with ROB by catching people high with an NAir but that's not a regular thing and I would never attempt to argue that "omg ROB can kill at 80% what a BEAST!" At any rate, 110-120 is when ROB normally starts getting kills at ground level with NAir himself. BAir starts to become an outright kill at that range too and ROB still has more options once you hit the ~150 range.

*sigh*

Don't even try that "well you don't play Mario" crap this time, that's pure numerical data anyone can find or research themselves; his FSmash just isn't that strong, period. This goes for the "well we've found ways around Mario's poor range" crap too -- we know that. Even certain strong characters have problems with range, namely Wario, but that doesn't mean it isn't a valid concern.

So...let me get this straight. You found numerical evidence that Mario's Fsmash doesn't kill ROB until 130-150%...yet Bo and I both KO ROB at much lower %...but since you have these magic numbers, our experience (something you seem to lack for this particular matchup) is wrong?

About the range...it's sort of how people said MK couldn't kill when Brawl first came out, or that Dins was broken. To a lesser extent, we've found answers to range. My favorite is upB OOS.

It isn't stronger than I think, it's exactly as strong as I know. FAir is fairly weak as a knockaway attack, it's more useful as a spike... which ROB plain stomps out with his Up-B. BAir is Mario's bread-and-butter aerial, like ROB's FAir or DK's BAir, so it's likely to be stale anyway and isn't even the most impressive kill move while fresh. (It would be like me claiming ROB's DSmash is a kill move. It is technically, but not one of note.) UAir... ahaha no, not even fresh.

Fair has the most knockback out of all of Mario's aerials if outside the meteor hitbox. But yeah, Mario's aerials generally suck for killing until higher %.

I find it funny that you're so sure that Mario's Fsmash is as weak as ROB's.

Mario does protect himself well during recovery with the Cape and I understand he won't be recovering low unless he must. (i.e. He's knocked far enough away and low enough that he needs every inch to make it back.) But one mistimed Cape and Mario is dead. One well-placed NAir or BAir can still get around the Cape as well, though NAir is just damage-racking with its high trajectory. Contrast this to vice-versa, where Mario needs to outsmart ROB three or four times with perfectly timed Capes, FLUDD, FAir/BAir before he gets the gimp.

I agree, but Mario's harder to hit than ROB off--

Have we had this discussion before? It feels vaguely familiar

So Mario can... jump off-stage, throw out one thing, and then has to recover back to the ledge? Talk about vertical mastery! Marth can do that too, with the key difference being that he can actually beat ROB in the air. ROB mows through Fireballs like nothing and his aerials solidly beat Mario. FLUDD is only about equivalent to knocking ROB away with a half-stale BAir, granted it's easy to use but hardly some gamebreaking edgeguard that magically drains ROB of his entire fuel reserve.

Cape beats Fair, Fludd beats Nair, Bair spike beats low recovery. ROB's safest and smartest option is to recover high.

Mario can't follow up on it anyway, he has no off-stage game and needs to get back to the ledge after using FLUDD. If Mario is using it on-stage, then ROB has no need to throw an attack out because Mario isn't near him. FIHL is probably the most overrated excuse for an AT I've ever heard in this game anyway.

lolwut? No offstage game? Where'd this come from?

Fludd is barely ever used offstage, I don't know why you're assuming that it is. That's only the case if you can't reach the opponent, and that's only if they're too high, not too far.

And do you realize how long you're trapped in lag if Fludded during your Nair? vs a character like G&W or Peach...that's like every aerial. Overrated my ***.

ROB's aerials eat through Fireballs and every one of Mario's own aerials. (And Mario's NAir would just rack up a little damage anyway, the trajectory would pop ROB right back up to the stage.) Mario also can't go very far down, ROB can come up from much lower than Mario can even reach.

I agree with the fireball bit while he's offstage and even Nair mostly, but you keep going back to how far ROB can recover from and how far Mario can't. You do realize that if you're not low enough to be offscreen, Mario can safely reach you? Or...just wait for you to rise...which you will...then go from there?

Not that going high is that bad either... ROB just has to use the ledge to his advantage to keep Mario from getting too "under" him and can then space a descending FAir or land on the stage behind Mario depending on how far Mario commits. Perhaps more risky in that it's still giving Mario free reign at his underbelly, though, but surely removes what little risk there is of getting gimped. *shrug*

Actually, recovering high is a much better idea for these reasons. Your options are much safer and harder to punish.

If that is the case, then fair enough. At least to Mario's credit, his FSmash is about the only thing he has with respectable range too. ROB still has better killing power in this matchup since NAir is roughly equal in power but easier to land, let alone the edgeguarding difference and more numerous secondary kill moves.

Nair does not kill at 110% from the middle of FD. Nair is not easier to land than Usmash, especially OOS, after FIHL, or reverse pivot smashed.

ROB's ability to edgeguard Mario is notable, but not THAT big of a deal, especially since ROB will barely ever be knocking Mario offstage any way but vertically.

And I wish you would stop presuming that I'm saying ROB can camp Mario. The Cape is a perfectly good reflector and ROB can't just sit back flinging projectiles, we all get that. The simple fact that ROB has projectiles means Mario must keep his Cape at the ready, he can't just spam Fireballs all day because ROB is more than willing to trade hits with projectiles. ROB will be the aggressor anyway, due to winning direct clashes and having his projectile game marginalized, but he doesn't have to let Mario dictate the pace of the match and force him to be super-aggressive. No, he can punish Mario if he's too aggressive with his Fireball game and can afford to be careful with his approach.

Except camping or spamming with fireballs is something no good Mario would do unless they could...like...effectively camp with Ganon or DK.

Fireballs aren't hard to "get around" at all because ROB doesn't have to go around them. He can just plow right through them with an aerial, which gives Mario fits because ROB's aerials beat his and he still has to out-space ROB to land an aerial even following a Fireball. As far as recovery is concerned, Mario has no answer to ROB's UAir and even the Cape won't do much since he'll be coming in almost vertically (no horizontal momentum to reverse).

I don't see why you're clinging to Fair so much. It's not at all hard to get around. Fireballs aren't Mario's only approach options either.

And...you're edgeguarding with Uair? I don't think I've even seen that mentioned here.

 

[HeroMystic]

Mario can't camp with fireballs...at all. They suck for that purpose. They're for approaching, but not much else.

Don't make me hurt you.

 

[Matador]

Don't make me hurt you.

Lol, you don't agree? I suppose they're MAYBE used for spacing? But camping and spamming? They have no priority, they're too slow, not enough range and decent hitstun but meh.

Their redeeming qualities imo, are the low ending lag, the perfect trajectory, and the fact that they can be followed up to easily. All of which are perfect for approaching, but not much else when weighed with their cons.

 

[Judge Judy]

Lol, you don't agree? I suppose they're MAYBE used for spacing? But camping and spamming? They have no priority, they're too slow, not enough range and decent hitstun but meh.

Their redeeming qualities imo, are the low ending lag, the perfect trajectory, and the fact that they can be followed up to easily. All of which are perfect for approaching, but not much else when weighed with their cons.

All true, but their trajectory still allows you to build "walls" with them; they aren't great for spamming or camping but they suffice for all practical purposes.