Match-Up Re-Discussion: Ike

[Sinister Slush]

Link For First Ike Discussion

Ike Vs Yoshi

​

Here we shall discuss Yoshi vs Ike, and why Ike fights for His friends.

Ike VS Yoshi Ratio: -1/Small Disadvantage for Yoshi
Yoshi Ratios
Ike Ratios

Can Yoshi CG Ike?: Yes
GR Options Off Stage: If Ike Uses his DJ, He loses A Stock.

Overall Summary
[collapse=Small Summaries]

You shouldn't be trying to play a CQC battle with Ike. His jab does much better in that regard. Fairs are much easier to punish since dash grab has a better time reaching. Just make sure you know when it's coming and react accordingly. Don't try it when you see Nair cause often times, Ike can dodge it if you're off a few frames. Mainly through this match, keep the pace going for you and abuse the chaingrab to keep stage control. Don't even really want to be killing Ike until about 160 with fresh moves.

I sorta play this MU like the MK one, which involves staying very noncommital and acting only to punish. Ike can hammer us pretty hard if we approach. It's important to note that since we don't autosnap while recovering with our DJ, we're liable to being Fsmashed/Dtilted on the ledge, so make sure you Down B cancel to remain below the ledge. As far as jab goes, SDI out and reset. Ike has massively superior options than us at close range out of his own jab.

I don't think Yoshi can shield grab a well-spaced Nair. Full hopping Fair can keep Yoshi grounded, and anytime Ike gets a Jab, he's got to use it to it's full potential (jab canceling if the time is appropriate), since I don't see this MU calling for Ike's Jab game as much as some others. If Ike gets Air-Released offstage, he's better off keeping his second jump and going straight into Aether, depending on how far he is from the stage. It's best for Yoshi to stay above or equal to the ledge level. If he's below that, his stock is pretty much in the hands of something like Dtilt or a smash. Ike's reliable finishers for the MU should be Bair, Utilt, and Usmash. Bair can also be used for our spacing, but it shouldn't be abused because it's nice to keep it's KO potential fresh so that it can kill at around 80-90% near the ledge if we catch the opponent by surprise.

Egg to grab out of Aether. That crap hurts and can even get us when we space it well iirc. In general, your grab (and just fear of your grab) affects this match-up a lot for me. I'd say this match were comfortably in Ike's favor, but Polt keeps me really second-guessing that. Also, I wish Japes weren't regularly a banned stage, because it's where Ike does well against Yoshi, imo. But that doesn't matter.

It's really just that grab. And your neutral B... if you catch us in it, it's tough to know what to do and if we break out and accidentally use a move or a second jump, it can turn into a lost stock if Yoshi capitalizes. I'm unsure if Ike can jab1-jab1 Yoshi's shield safely, but that's something to think about. Yoshi's jab is same speed as Ike's, and it's a pretty decent hitbox as well, so you shouldn't be AS scared of Ike's jab as some other characters.

But yeah. If Ike uses a second jump and you grab him... it's auto-death. And if you can hard read Ike offstage, any grab can essentially be a death for him. That's why I wish I had Japes/Pirate Ship. Just learn how to edgehog and bait Ike into using his recovery in the wrong way, and you'll already be a bit stronger in this match-up.

I think the mu is pretty close to even, but Ike gets a slight advantage due to sheer kill power. Like Delta said we can be really gay in this mu, as long as we keep moving and keep Ike guessing with proper egg lay mix-ups.


scattered random tidbits:

b-throw->dash attack is almost always guaranteed, do NOT try to jump out of it =/

Ike can recover from a grab release offstage with no jump unless you edgehog.

We can DJ nair Ike out of aether or we can do the egg>grab thing.

If the Ike likes to try jumping out of the CG, mix it up with a full-hop nair..

Ike ***** our spotdodges =(

We could dj out of his jab sometimes, but idk, San likes to bait the jump on me sometimes and hit me with something harder.

I'm torn between giving this a -1 or a 0 for us, Ike does win, but idk if he wins enough to warrant the -1.

[/collapse]

Ike VS Yoshi Videos
Zudenka Vs Ike
Poltergust Vs Thebrettster

Ratio
Coming Soon

 

[Delta-cod]

Play Ike.

Remember this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qi3RueHKIY&feature=related

Laugh uncontrollably.

We lose, -4. Unwinnable.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I hate fighting Ike ;_;

watch for that fair, and his killing everything... And camp him a lot cuz we can't fight up close ;_;

 

[F-Tier Player]

Ike dominates close range with that jab cancel. Who's jab comes out faster, his or ours?

 

[Airborne]

Ike dominates close range with that jab cancel. Who's jab comes out faster, his or ours?

It's the same speed (frame 3); his is just HUGE

 

[Z'zgashi]

I wouldnt recommend trying to beat it out though, ikes is better and we eat **** if he connects.

 

[Poltergust]

Slush, you should add that we need to time an edge-hog in order to gimp Ike by grabbing him out of his double-jump like that.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Ike dominates close range with that jab cancel. Who's jab comes out faster, his or ours?

It's the same speed (frame 3); his is just HUGE

Should I get Frame Data from both ends and have it linked in the OP?
Too atleast make it easier for people who wish to know what beats what, rather then having to search for the thread in both character boards by having either two Windows up, or two Tabs.

Slush, you should add that we need to time an edge-hog in order to gimp Ike by grabbing him out of his double-jump like that.

I asked I believe Scatz and Delta over Skype if we needed to grab the ledge to make sure he won't make it back. Both answered No, so I didn't add "Must Grab Ledge" since it seems doing so wasn't necessary in the first place.

 

[Scatz]

You shouldn't be trying to play a CQC battle with Ike. His jab does much better in that regard. Fairs are much easier to punish since dash grab has a better time reaching. Just make sure you know when it's coming and react accordingly. Don't try it when you see Nair cause often times, Ike can dodge it if you're off a few frames. Mainly through this match, keep the pace going for you and abuse the chaingrab to keep stage control. Don't even really want to be killing Ike until about 160 with fresh moves.

 

[Delta-cod]

I sorta play this MU like the MK one, which involves staying very noncommital and acting only to punish. Ike can hammer us pretty hard if we approach. It's important to note that since we don't autosnap while recovering with our DJ, we're liable to being Fsmashed/Dtilted on the ledge, so make sure you Down B cancel to remain below the ledge. As far as jab goes, SDI out and reset. Ike has massively superior options than us at close range out of his own jab.

 

[smashkng]

I don't know if Yoshi's shield grab is fast enough to punish a fast falled Ike Nair. It should be tested, and also if he can jab before the grab box comes out after that Nair. As of aerials, Ike's Bair shouldn't be forgotten. It comes out very quickly, has very good range (though not as much as his Fair), auto cancels and is stronger than his Fair. Ike's pivot grab has also pretty good range.

 

[Scatz]

From my experience, I've never been able to shield grab a Nair unless it was done really early in the SH. Yoshi can shield grab Ike's Fair if he spaces it wrong. While his Bair is great, it mainly teaches you to stay mid/far range at all times until you have a moment to get in and do chip damage.

 

[Poltergust]

I asked I believe Scatz and Delta over Skype if we needed to grab the ledge to make sure he won't make it back. Both answered No, so I didn't add "Must Grab Ledge" since it seems doing so wasn't necessary in the first place.

Well, uh, that's wrong lol. Ike is able to reach the ledge again if you don't edge-hog him.

 

[Z'zgashi]

You can't reliably shield grab ikes nair unless the Ike is doing it wrong. You can however sidestep on reaction if Ike starts nair about mid short hop and buffer down b, it's worked for me on multiple occasions. Then again, I hate being up close to Ike in general so if I had the option I'd just retreat lol.

 

[Chuee]

Ike's nair is like -9 (i think) on shield so I dont think yoshi can punish it

 

[Zatchiel]

I don't think Yoshi can shield grab a well-spaced Nair. Full hopping Fair can keep Yoshi grounded, and anytime Ike gets a Jab, he's got to use it to it's full potential (jab canceling if the time is appropriate), since I don't see this MU calling for Ike's Jab game as much as some others. If Ike gets Air-Released offstage, he's better off keeping his second jump and going straight into Aether, depending on how far he is from the stage. It's best for Yoshi to stay above or equal to the ledge level. If he's below that, his stock is pretty much in the hands of something like Dtilt or a smash. Ike's reliable finishers for the MU should be Bair, Utilt, and Usmash. Bair can also be used for our spacing, but it shouldn't be abused because it's nice to keep it's KO potential fresh so that it can kill at around 80-90% near the ledge if we catch the opponent by surprise.

Two cents. I haven't played a lot of Yoshis.

 

[Teh Brettster]

Egg to grab out of Aether. That crap hurts and can even get us when we space it well iirc. In general, your grab (and just fear of your grab) affects this match-up a lot for me. I'd say this match were comfortably in Ike's favor, but Polt keeps me really second-guessing that. Also, I wish Japes weren't regularly a banned stage, because it's where Ike does well against Yoshi, imo. But that doesn't matter.

It's really just that grab. And your neutral B... if you catch us in it, it's tough to know what to do and if we break out and accidentally use a move or a second jump, it can turn into a lost stock if Yoshi capitalizes. I'm unsure if Ike can jab1-jab1 Yoshi's shield safely, but that's something to think about. Yoshi's jab is same speed as Ike's, and it's a pretty decent hitbox as well, so you shouldn't be AS scared of Ike's jab as some other characters.

But yeah. If Ike uses a second jump and you grab him... it's auto-death. And if you can hard read Ike offstage, any grab can essentially be a death for him. That's why I wish I had Japes/Pirate Ship. Just learn how to edgehog and bait Ike into using his recovery in the wrong way, and you'll already be a bit stronger in this match-up.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

1) If we grab you, we have a free Dash Attack out of Bthrow for quite a large % range. Given Dash Attack's knockback angle, at higher %s that could force Yoshi to use most of his DJ length to just make it back, resulting in not much room for mixups/more open to being hit by Dtilt.

2) Speaking of dtilt: Yoshi is by far the character I've landed the most Dtilts on. 3 in one match on battlefield, vs landing one against Marth on Pirate Ship. May not have been the best example because you probably haven't heard of the Yoshi and well, it's me, but the point still stands: Yoshi has a big, easy to hit, nose while recovering.

3) I don't *think* Yoshi can shieldgrab Fair. I don't know for sure. I know he can't shield grab Nair or Bair.

4) Yoshi is jab bait. Jabjabjabjabjabjabjabjabjabjabjabjab.

5) Ike for obvious reasons, can kill Yoshi a lot quicker than he can kill Ike. And has a lot more KOing options. I'd say they can both gimp each other roughly equally, though Yoshi sets up gimps better. We also out range you.

6) I hate your grabs. So much.

7) Your eggs are annoying, but not really enough to force an approach if we have the % lead. Seriously, don't expect us to come charging in just because you toss those things our way.

50-50 or 60-40 Ike's favor. I don't know, haven't played the match enough. *shrugs*

 

[Sinister Slush]

2) Speaking of dtilt: Yoshi is by far the character I've landed the most Dtilts on. 3 in one match on battlefield, vs landing one against Marth on Pirate Ship. May not have been the best example because you probably haven't heard of the Yoshi and well, it's me, but the point still stands: Yoshi has a big, easy to hit, nose while recovering.

Yes... Our Nose is pretty big, but if we turn around, OUR HITBOX COMPLETELY DISAPPEARS!
Anyways, Basically to me, as long as we space ourselves from most of your kill moves, CP stages with either no Platforms (preferably FD or Smashville) we won't have to be too afraid of Dtilt. As for the Bthrow to dash attack, I haven't tried it yet. But hopefully we can DJ to Nair your DA.

3) I don't *think* Yoshi can shieldgrab Fair. I don't know for sure. I know he can't shield grab Nair or Bair.

We cannot, I've tried this a few times and cannot Shield grab the Fair.

4) Yoshi is jab bait. Jabjabjabjabjabjabjabjabjabjabjabjab.

I believe we can DJ AD out of it, of course that's usually not a good idea depending on the situation you're in.

5) Ike for obvious reasons, can kill Yoshi a lot quicker than he can kill Ike. And has a lot more KOing options. I'd say they can both gimp each other roughly equally, though Yoshi sets up gimps better. We also out range you.

Ike can kill early which's basically a Gimp on Yoshi since he usually lives to 130-180%, anything below that is a gimp to us. As for Yoshi's side of beating Ike, we either camp him to death but at the same time being careful while doing so. And... we have to gay him as much as possible, If we get the CG we Will continue squeezing out the little % we can pull out of Ike.

6) I hate your grabs. So much.

If you don't like our Grabs, you'll love our Egglays. It may seem like a stupid idea at some certain times, but if we know that we're gonna get hit by a kill move. We could just egglay you but also get the percentage still while getting the Egglay damage and either a Uair or egg throw at you.

7) Your eggs are annoying, but not really enough to force an approach if we have the % lead. Seriously, don't expect us to come charging in just because you toss those things our way.

Can you handle 4-6 minutes of Straight camping? If we wanted to be as gay as possible, we could keep throwing the 5 eggs we get off stage, Ledge DR back to stage and get back to said ledge and repeat. If you try charging we could either attack as well, or Ledge Jump > Double Jump Airdodge > Super Jump to the other ledge and begin camping there.

50-50 or 60-40 Ike's favor. I don't know, haven't played the match enough. *shrugs*

No, -1. Not Even/0, or -2. Even if we avoid your kill moves the whole match, I still see this in Ike's favor by a slight advantage.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Bthrow -> Dash Attack is 100% guaranteed true combo. You can't do squat about it. If you are within a large percent range (average for the whole cast is like, 5% to 65% maybe? Don't know the exact one for Yoshi), you will get hit by the DA no matter what you do.

Space yourself away from our killmoves? All but three of our throws can kill. >_> That would also lock you from trying to get an early kill with Fsmash unless we overcommitted, as we could just Counter it for a lulzy kill.

The Yoshi I played against didn't DJ out of my jabs, but I don't know if he could or not. I know the thing has a lot of hitstun though, so it would probably depend on the frame that your DJ activates/what jab thing we were trying to do. After all, DJ wouldn't help against Jab -> Grab. lol

Your eggs don't get tossed out fast enough to pressure us to do anything. Watch one of the few videos with San I believe it was vs a Yoshi (Port maybe? Sorry, I honestly don't remember who vs who.). The Egg Spam was tried. It failed completely. It's just too slow. Or if we wanted to be equally gay, we could just plank the egg toss spam attempt, and then aetherdrag you if you attempt to get us off from onstage. *shrugs* Whatifs are whatifs are.

From the sounds of the stage explanation, Yoshi may only have two stages where he has an advantage: FD and SV. Most Ikes strike FD, so if you go to SV first game and win, you're out of that level of CP options for round 3. Ike meanwhile has a lot he can pick against Yoshi: Brinstar, Delfino, PS1, PS2: tell me if any of these stages are good for Yoshi.

And I refuse to use the new number system until they fix it so MK doesn't have three false neutral MUs. 60-40 is a slight advantage, not "+2". Besides, +2 is more like 65-35, with +3 being 70-30, and +4 being 75-25 and upwards. And like I said before: can't avoid our killmoves the whole match unless you're avoiding jab the whole match. Which you can't do. lol

 

[Delta-cod]

Just because something is guaranteed doesn't mean it is guaranteed due to sheer stun. It could be a combination of stun + the followup attack hitting just BARELY earlier than any other move comes out to beat it (airdodges don't start invincibility on frame 1, for example). Yoshi's DJ armor is active from frame 1, meaning that it could potentially be an escape route for the combo. Assuming the DA doesn't break the armor, it's an easy counter Nair.

As for jab, I'm sure a combination of proper DI + DJ would escape pretty much everything but a finished jab combo.

It seems as though Ike would have the easy upperhand, but Yoshi has the potential to be COMPLETELY gay and win. It's like fighting MK, except Ike doesn't have a million jumps and the gimp game that we normally worry about, but range and kill power instead. Yoshi is pretty capable of being really gay to MK, and Ike is slower, so I can't imagine Ike gives us anywhere near as much trouble as MK does.

The main thing Ike seems to have is his jab, as it somewhat shuts down our typical jab game. They're the same speed, but I'd say Ike's is better for this MU. All it really means to me is that instead of trying to box with Ike, we need to go away and camp more. Ike really should only be killing exceptionally early off a good read or a stupid mistake. Since Yoshi should be playing totally defensively, I can't see most of Ike's ground game being usable since they're too slow. Fair can get stale, and Bair really shouldn't hit, although it is, in my opinion, the most threatening kill move for this MU.

Eggs are also a lot trickier than you'd think. It's entirely possible that whoever was using them in the match you saw wasn't doing it right.

 

[Scatz]

Let me place more emphasis on what I said earlier.

Yoshi can shieldgrab ONLY BADLY SPACED F-airs.

As for gimping with Dtilt, it's not impossible for Yoshi to get hit by them, but correct recovering from Yoshi doesn't allow the hitbox to land unless it's on YI:Brawl.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Bthrow -> Dash Attack has been tested. It hits due to massive range and IASA frames on Bthrow. Nothing can avoid it when buffered right. You will be hit by it and put in a bad spot potentially. In the whole Jab -> Grab -> Bthrow -> Dash Attack combo, the only time you can get out of it is Jab -> Grab, and even then you barely have any frames to do so.

Ikes nowadays approach with a mix of Fair, Nair, and Bair (Fair for most range and KOing power, Nair for mix of range and near autocanceling IASA frames, Bair for auto canceling, KOing power, and mix up with Jab) They all have their uses, so none of them are really going to get stale, particularly with jab refreshing them. Even if they do get stale, they still hit like a brick.

From the very few videos I've seen of good Yoshis playing against good Ikes: Yoshi simply isn't gay enough to stop Ike. The Yoshi tried at least once, and it failed. It's not a blow out or anything like that, but I do believe Ike has the slight advantage.

 

[smashkng]

Bthrow to Dash Attack is a true combo at the right percents on almost if not everyone. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72ZbDNAh6uU It's like on 30-80% I think on heavies like Yoshi I'm not too sure.

 

[Yikarur]

did I miss something @.@ strange thread

 

[Delta-cod]

Nidtendo, could you link me to the vids you've watched? I'm interested to see how the matches played out.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I will if I can remember who was playing, so I can look them up. >_<

 

[Z'zgashi]

Ike needs to keep his bair fresh for kills, that moe is my downfall at least 90% of the time. Utilt and usmash don't kill near as much do to the fact that when I'm in kill damage, I don't approach Ike at all (then again I don't approach Ike at all anytime lol). Yoshi can play a safe keep away game and bairs amazing speed and fairs amazing reach are why I die. Wavebounced egg lays, pivot grabs, and egg toss keep us away from utilt and usmash quite nicely (allthough a sliding usmash with a good read hurts =_=)

 

[Sharky]

I think the mu is pretty close to even, but Ike gets a slight advantage due to sheer kill power. Like Delta said we can be really gay in this mu, as long as we keep moving and keep Ike guessing with proper egg lay mix-ups.


scattered random tidbits:

b-throw->dash attack is almost always guaranteed, do NOT try to jump out of it =/

Ike can recover from a grab release offstage with no jump unless you edgehog.

We can DJ nair Ike out of aether or we can do the egg>grab thing.

If the Ike likes to try jumping out of the CG, mix it up with a full-hop nair..

Ike ***** our spotdodges =(

We could dj out of his jab sometimes, but idk, San likes to bait the jump on me sometimes and hit me with something harder.

I'm torn between giving this a -1 or a 0 for us, Ike does win, but idk if he wins enough to warrant the -1.

 

[Delta-cod]

I try to avoid hitting my shield button as much as possible in this MU. It's awful what Ike's jab can do to us when we shield/spotdodge. >_>

 

[Sharky]

rolling away is relatively safe as long as you know when to do it. I still wouldn't rely on it though. =(

 

[Z'zgashi]

I would rather just run away everytime I sense danger

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Anyways, Basically to me, as long as we space ourselves from most of your kill moves

Ike has moves that don't kill? Honestly its a matter of not getting hit at all.

Can you handle 4-6 minutes of Straight camping? If we wanted to be as gay as possible, we could keep throwing the 5 eggs we get off stage, Ledge DR back to stage and get back to said ledge and repeat. If you try charging we could either attack as well, or Ledge Jump > Double Jump Airdodge > Super Jump to the other ledge and begin camping there.

Lol Ledge DR. I love it to death but lets be real slush no one can(from what i can tell) or actually does it.

The Yoshi I played against didn't DJ out of my jabs, but I don't know if he could or not. I know the thing has a lot of hitstun though, so it would probably depend on the frame that your DJ activates/what jab thing we were trying to do. After all, DJ wouldn't help against Jab -> Grab. lol

DJ + DI = We get away unless its the full jab combo. Now whether the Yoshi you play does it or not is a different story. Also I know just because we do it doesn't mean we're safe.

Your eggs don't get tossed out fast enough to pressure us to do anything. Watch one of the few videos with San I believe it was vs a Yoshi (Port maybe? Sorry, I honestly don't remember who vs who.). The Egg Spam was tried. It failed completely. It's just too slow. Or if we wanted to be equally gay, we could just plank the egg toss spam attempt, and then aetherdrag you if you attempt to get us off from onstage. *shrugs* Whatifs are whatifs are.

Eggs are pretty damn effective vs Ike if you have the patience. And LOL planking the egg toss. Dude have you ever seen Eggtoss to Dash grab? Its ridiculously easy on ike since he doesn't Auto grab the ledge.

From the sounds of the stage explanation, Yoshi may only have two stages where he has an advantage: FD and SV. Most Ikes strike FD, so if you go to SV first game and win, you're out of that level of CP options for round 3. Ike meanwhile has a lot he can pick against Yoshi: Brinstar, Delfino, PS1, PS2: tell me if any of these stages are good for Yoshi.

Brinstar and PS2 maybe? not sure there, i hate brinstar and never use PS2 so yeah. Yoshi doesn't really have a bad stage. We can just take you to your worst stage and try to work with it from there. Thats what i do anyway.

And like I said before: can't avoid our killmoves the whole match unless you're avoiding jab the whole match. Which you can't do. lol

Elaborate there please? Not sure what you mean. I never get killed out of ikes jab really. More so from hard reads.

From the very few videos I've seen of good Yoshis playing against good Ikes: Yoshi simply isn't gay enough to stop Ike. The Yoshi tried at least once, and it failed. It's not a blow out or anything like that, but I do believe Ike has the slight advantage.

Never saw a good yoshi play a good ike. Where did you find those? lmao

 

[Yikarur]

lol LedgeDR is Yoshis easiest technique. () I can even LedgeDJNairCancel. (uncosistent but I get it down often) so don't say "lol LedgeDR" it's one of Yoshis better options on the Ledge.
I hope I'll get some videos from me up soon ^-^

 

[Sinister Slush]

I tried working with my Dazzle and it just doesn't cooperate with me.
Anyways yeah... Outside of techs like Super Jump and DR, I can see Ledge DR as Yoshis easiest Tech.
Now.. i'll give this Ike MU discussion another week and we can move on to the next one.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

lol LedgeDR is Yoshis easiest technique. () I can even LedgeDJNairCancel. (uncosistent but I get it down often) so don't say "lol LedgeDR" it's one of Yoshis better options on the Ledge.
I hope I'll get some videos from me up soon ^-^

i know its easy, thats not what i said lmao. Im saying no one does it. Suggesting a tech to a group of people who wont do it is kinda pointless

 

[Scatz]

Stick to the discussion. Whether people know how to use LedgeDR or not is their choice.

 

[F-Tier Player]

Zudenka vs Ike: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vv_5zBirbf0

Critique
0:03 -First off, any chance to chunk eggs take it. Zudenka knows this obviously.
0:31 -I like the shield pressure there, but only b/c Ike was ending a nair. And good surprise upair too.
0:43 -I don't know why Yoshi challenged the up-b but I know I would wait on stage and spam Ike's up-b
1:13 -Manueverability excellent. Confuse Ike...check
1:42 -Good DI & DJ away

Generally it's good to keep Ike in the air b/c he is a beast with jabs while on stage. Zudenka does a good job of keeping his opponents guessing and that's what all Yoshi's should have more of=mindgames. This means wavebounce, DR..I can't DR...DJ shenanigans and such.

meatridin all night...

 

[Yikarur]

starting with egg toss against people that know Yoshi is not that good, Ike can just dash attack through it right at the beginning

 

[Airborne]

starting with egg toss against people that know Yoshi is not that good, Ike can just dash attack through it right at the beginning

There's this thing called zoning... and we can do it with our eggs.