Match-Up Export #8: Wario (Pre-progress)

[Xiivi]

Things will get done when I actually have access to my own computer again (blah blah broken blah blah already explained this to Zhamy), I guess for now I'll start up some more match-up exports so you guys at least have other characters to discuss for now.

Also since the other pre-progress threads are going VERY well, I decided to make a few more.

Planned Updates:
Links to Matches
Link to Wario Boards Fox Match-Up Discussion
Links to All Previous Wario Discussion from the Fox Boards
Stage Banning
Stage Striking
Stage Counter-Picking
Possible Secondaries
Chaingrab Specifics
Dealing with Opponent Projects
Utilizing your Own Projectiles
Approach
Defense
Recovery
Edgeguarding
Killing & Surviving
Frame Data Comparisons
Advantages & Disadvantages
Key Points

 

[718_ROOKI3]

1st post and yes finally more discussions... everyone lets gooooooooooooooo

 

[718_ROOKI3]

Since no one wants to get started

Time to get started

Green = Great CP
Yellow = Fairly Good CP
Red = Bad/Wrong CP

Stage Striking: Battlefield, Yoshi's,Lylat

Stage Banning: Brinstar, Rainbow

Stage CP'ing: Final. D, PS1, Smashville

Wario AKA Harley Davidson

These are the moves I feel we need to know by frame data, so we know what to stay away from and what we can challenge

Frame Data:

Fsmash Frame 9
Usmash (Multi hit)Frames 11, 13, 15, 17, 19, 21

Ftilt Frame 14
Dtilt Frame 5

Fair Frame 5
Uair Frame 8
Bair Frame 9
Dair (Multi hit)Frames, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19, 21
Nair (1st hit)Frame 4 (2nd hit)Frame 15

Spot dodge Frame 2-20
Airdodge Frame 4-29

Neu.B Frame 8
Up-B (Multi hits)Frames 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20 22, 24, 26, 28
Down B:
Charge Level Zero (about 0:00 – 0:17): Trips on Frame 16 (no damage)
Charge Level One (about 0:17 – 0:57): Frame 10
Charge Level Two (about 0:57 – 1:50): Frame 5
Charge Level Three (Full Charge): Frame 9 (Super Armor Frames 5-10)

 

[Zhamy]

I know absolutely nothing about Wario, unfortunately. (Despite Futile living in my state.)

 

[Fenrir VII]

Some things about Wario:

Wario is oddly susceptible to jab combos... Like, you can basically stop a lot of what he has against it, and continue pressure, as long as you don't just land in front of a shield... I'm not saying to just spam jab, but it does seem to be a pretty good out of jail safe card to play when you're in trouble.

Wario is very much like Melee Jiggs with his aerial movement and attacks... so basically, keep applying pressure. keep moving him back. If you just know he's going to keep WOPing you, FH drill beats it.

if you shield a Fsmash and have pretty good timing, you CAN land an usmash on Wario, in my experience. This is pretty incredible as Fsmash seems to be a pretty big fallback move for him.

Wario's uair kills you early. That should be his main way of killing Fox, really... it's also very quick... careful careful.

His recovery is quite good, but you can kinda guess it out sometimes, if you put Wario in a bad position initially. Dsmash is always a good setup for edgeguarding... the arc he forms when he is jumping off the bike is pretty readable... just hard to beat. You can edgeguard him, with very good play, though.

just tips for the actual matchup. i don't really want to coment on advantages or anything right now.

 

[718_ROOKI3]

I know absolutely nothing about Wario, unfortunately. (Despite Futile living in my state.)

I heard Futile and Fiction both quit...so if anything i dont blame you, ima get to this and D3 soon enough... too much discussion on match-up threads begin to get boring and tiring so ima relax for about a day or 2

 

[SnowballBob33]

Wario.... hmmm
All wario matches are slow and boring. You shoot and fair, they keep jumpin around liek crackheads. Hes easily comboed because he doesnt have many good defensive options. His recovery is great unless you can catch him with a dair off the map which will kill him. All of his smashes are easily countered. Just usmash him for easy 17%. Dont really worry about stale because you are guaranteed 9 lasers, especially when he leaves his bike laying around. Grab release fair and usmash work last time I checked and can easily be done out of utilt. His mouth can be really annoying. Choose a stage with no platforms so u dont have to worry about uair as much so you cam just shine away.

The last time I lost to a wario was because we were both high % and I dsmashed instead of usmash because I was afraid he was going to block it and fsmash, but it didnt kill him and he came back and killed me, then I illusioned instead of shdl and died when he was high %. so yea, hes not too bad
52-48 fox

 

[PhantomX]

Wario.... hmmm
All wario matches are slow and boring. You shoot and fair, they keep jumpin around liek crackheads. Hes easily comboed because he doesnt have many good defensive options. His recovery is great unless you can catch him with a dair off the map which will kill him. All of his smashes are easily countered. Just usmash him for easy 17%. Dont really worry about stale because you are guaranteed 9 lasers, especially when he leaves his bike laying around. Grab release fair and usmash work last time I checked and can easily be done out of utilt. His mouth can be really annoying. Choose a stage with no platforms so u dont have to worry about uair as much so you cam just shine away.

The last time I lost to a wario was because we were both high % and I dsmashed instead of usmash because I was afraid he was going to block it and fsmash, but it didnt kill him and he came back and killed me, then I illusioned instead of shdl and died when he was high %. so yea, hes not too bad
52-48 fox

There are so many things wrong with this that my eyes are bleeding.

 

[Zhamy]

There are so many things wrong with this that my eyes are bleeding.

Sorry, I'm going to have to agree with PhantomX here. There's no way the matchup is that easy. And I don't think Fox can force an air release.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Sorry, I'm going to have to agree with PhantomX here. There's no way the matchup is that easy. And I don't think Fox can force an air release.

Thirded

Fox cannot force any air release.

Wario actually is one ofthe more interesting (read: frustrating) characters to play against.

LIke, I think the match is pretty darn even, really... Wario has a lot of weird stuff that can really hurt Fox's game... but Fox has a pretty easy time comboing, and even killing him, really.
Fox doesn't get gimps easily at all. They are possible, but very hard and rare to pull off.
And Wario has good killers against Fox in his smashes, and his uair, which scares me.
He can also zone your shield pretty darn well...

Overall aerial game, I would give to Wario here. I think Fox has some stuff that rivals his air game, but Wario's just better suited for it, imo.
Combos and killing, I give both to Fox, as I do with most matchups.
Recovery goes To Wario without, I would hope, all that much argument. I think Fox's recovery is better than most people think it is, but Wario's is incredibly adaptable.

Lasers are very nice in this matchup.

And agreeing with what people have said, I would try to avoid platformed stages... I feel that Fox could compete on them, but Wario has the upper hand...

Halberd, FD, PS1, Yoshi's I would take.

 

[SnowballBob33]

There are so many things wrong with this that my eyes are bleeding.

How?
Wario is forced to approach because of lasers, and when he doesnt see an opening, hes probably going to keep jumping around and airdodging, which is when you fair to try to catch him in an airdodge. I've never played a wario match that didn't go down to the last minute, because they are slow. He doesnt have a move like marth, mk, or peach to stop you from following up. His aerials are going to outdo fox on a place like battlefield. His smashes remind me of marth risk and reward wise. If you dair him while hes on the bike, hes left with up b which goes nowhere. When his bike gets left on the stage you cant shoot it to refresh moves.

Sorry, I'm going to have to agree with PhantomX here. There's no way the matchup is that easy. And I don't think Fox can force an air release.

true, he can't force an air release, i just tryed it out, they have to jump.

 

[718_ROOKI3]

How?
Wario is forced to approach because of lasers, and when he doesnt see an opening, hes probably going to keep jumping around and airdodging, which is when you fair to try to catch him in an airdodge. I've never played a wario match that didn't go down to the last minute, because they are slow. He doesnt have a move like marth, mk, or peach to stop you from following up. His aerials are going to outdo fox on a place like battlefield. His smashes remind me of marth risk and reward wise. If you dair him while hes on the bike, hes left with up b which goes nowhere. When his bike gets left on the stage you cant shoot it to refresh moves.


true, he can't force an air release, i just tryed it out, they have to jump.

the match is just not that easy... if you really think so then play these warios *the ones i beat*
Slikvik
Malcolm
Atomsk
Anti
Umbra
Candy
Doom

it's hard to hit wario and fart is gay when you play these people you'll see exactly what i mean

 

[Toronto Joe]

wario doesnt have a projectile(**** the bike) you do, use it to your full advantage.....avoid being above wario, uair has nasty priority and power, learn to predict warios fsmash, it can be easy to see coming once you get your spacing right...most of warios moves are slow so with foxs speed we have the ability to punish him very well, learn to bait out these moves and come in and **** him, you can be aggresive vs wario as long as your not predictable,its best to maintian a safe distance however since he can also punish you....but for god sakes dont let him build up that fart!.....some random stuff thing to do: nair oos shield his bike if he is ridin towards you......watch out for the bike when your recovering,ive found it can be quite deadly the hard way >.>

also,even though wario is considerably light, his momentum cancel is nuts, kill with usmash in this one

cp: japes(as Mk), fd
ban: yoshis island

2nds: MK,Marth

ill add more stuff as it comes to mind =]

 

[SnowballBob33]

Well I beat candy's. And the situation I was talking about was Oath's. I also played quite a few online. I'm probably going to play slik's this weekend and see if my mind changes but I dont think so.

I'm saying the matchups is even. Even doesn't mean its easy. Can yall go into detail how its not that simple? If you beat all of them then how would you disagree?

 

[KheldarVII]

Definately advantage for Wario.

 

[718_ROOKI3]

Well I beat candy's. And the situation I was talking about was Oath's. I also played quite a few online. I'm probably going to play slik's this weekend and see if my mind changes but I dont think so.

I'm saying the matchups is even. Even doesn't mean its easy. Can yall go into detail how its not that simple? If you beat all of them then how would you disagree?

I had to bust my as* to win... wario hits maaad hard the ***** is like a ****** snake

Definately advantage for Wario.

Na, i'd say its even.... Go ask anti what i did to his wario when we played(camped SHDL,nearly timed him out), *assumes you won't ask* you'll understand XDXDXD

 

[PhantomX]

You have to keep in mind that a lot of EC Warios are still very new/green, or lack a lot of experience. Besides, if you start playing the camp game, Wario will just make sure to take your stock first (not very hard with his early percent combos on heavies/fastfallers + his ridiculous kill moves) and then camp you instead. Falco can't kill a camping Wario, and his lasers have stun and combo into kill moves. If you fight face-to-face Wario has the edge as well (I think it's slight, though) b/c his bait and punish game is by far superior to yours.

Wario is **** near impossible to kill off the sides. It's good news that you have one of hte best vertical killers in the game You won't be seeing the bike onstage.

 

[718_ROOKI3]

You have to keep in mind that a lot of EC Warios are still very new/green, or lack a lot of experience. Besides, if you start playing the camp game, Wario will just make sure to take your stock first (not very hard with his early percent combos on heavies/fastfallers + his ridiculous kill moves) and then camp you instead. Falco can't kill a camping Wario, and his lasers have stun and combo into kill moves. If you fight face-to-face Wario has the edge as well (I think it's slight, though) b/c his bait and punish game is by far superior to yours.

Wario is **** near impossible to kill off the sides. It's good news that you have one of hte best vertical killers in the game You won't be seeing the bike onstage.

i know exactly what you mean

 

[Fenrir VII]

Not really trying to be argumentative, but I wanted to comment on this...

You have to keep in mind that a lot of EC Warios are still very new/green, or lack a lot of experience.

Can't really argue here... Reflex did really well for a while, and there are a couple more, but yeah, the better Warios are for the most part elsewhere.

Besides, if you start playing the camp game, Wario will just make sure to take your stock first (not very hard with his early percent combos on heavies/fastfallers + his ridiculous kill moves) and then camp you instead. Falco can't kill a camping Wario, and his lasers have stun and combo into kill moves.

Several things about this really bother me...
First of all, just stating that Wario will kill you first to deal with camping seems to be flawed logic to me. Fox also has ridiculous combos on Wario, and several quite good kill moves... so just stating that Wario will "just make sure to take your stock first" is pretty presumptuous... Not to mention if it is that simple, why would Wario not "just make sure to three stock you first"? In mentioning camping, it is generally acceptable that Fox has a much better camping game as he is faster, and has a decent annoying projectile. It's weak, but adds some damage, and does refill attacks... so Fox has a camping advantage. that's just the case... Whether we're up two stocks, or down two stocks, we can still camp you.

Secondly, never...ever use Falco as an example as to why Fox shouldn't be able to kill... Falco is not as well-equipped to kill as Fox... not at all. I realize you are using this as an example of camping, and since Falco is correctly regarded as having a better projectile, he is used as an example... But the way that Fox and Falco play in every situation (be it killing, comboing, camping, etc.) is completely different, so the example is flawed.
The fact is that Fox is able to camp Wario... building damage, and making his smashes refilled... that's just the case.

If you fight face-to-face Wario has the edge as well (I think it's slight, though) b/c his bait and punish game is by far superior to yours.

Actually, I really don't know that Wario has any kind of edge here... it is close, though. You cannot use any of your smashes without a huge risk of usmash... and while you can zone well with aerials, Fox is good at applying pressure, keep pushing you back, and make you do something else. This is done with a mixture of full hops and dash shields, mixed with Bairs, utilts, etc... And honestly, if Fox lands pretty much any attack, he can usually combo from it, and Wario falls into a LOT of stuff here.

Wario is **** near impossible to kill off the sides. It's good news that you have one of hte best vertical killers in the game You won't be seeing the bike onstage.

Yeah, Wario gets back from forever... Fox's Dsmash is really effective against that, since it sends low, and then, we can try to guess a recovery and punish, but Wario is quite hard to kill off the stage...Give you that one... but yeah, if we shield any of your smashes, you get an usmash... so it makes it a tricky match for both parties.

 

[PhantomX]

Your smashes are a double edged sword as well though. If we shield your smashes we get a free whatever. We can also powershield any of your smashes into Wafts.

Our grab range is insane, which is what gives us the edge in close combat. Fox can only hit you with like two consecutive utilts at low percents anyway if you're SDIing right.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Your smashes are a double edged sword as well though. If we shield your smashes we get a free whatever. We can also powershield any of your smashes into Wafts.

Our grab range is insane, which is what gives us the edge in close combat. Fox can only hit you with like two consecutive utilts at low percents anyway if you're SDIing right.

Yeah, Fox doesn't just blindly throw smashes here, though. I realize that Wario doesn't either... but from what I have seen in quite a few Warios, they throw a LOT more than Foxes do. We typically try to combo into them, or just use them for punishment / predictability.

And yeah, you have good grab range... but I like to think that Fox shouldn't get grabbed very much at all. I realize this is a bit idealistic, but gradually, Foxes are learning that in front of a shield is a bad idea... and more getting grabbed for being predictable or just overprioritized.

Also, I'm not really talking about cnosecutive utilts when I say "combo". Wario, for various reasons, falls into a LOT of varied combos involving jab, Jab Jab Cancel, dairs and utilts... mixed with grabs.
I'm not entirely sure as to the reason, but continuations with jabs in combos are incredibly effective against him... they really limit him into a shield, in which case, Fox should know how to punish. IN addition, your rolls and dodges are pretty easy to punish. Generally, I feel that Fox has a huge upper hand in pressuring here.

 

[PhantomX]

Yeah, Fox doesn't just blindly throw smashes here, though. I realize that Wario doesn't either... but from what I have seen in quite a few Warios, they throw a LOT more than Foxes do. We typically try to combo into them, or just use them for punishment / predictability.

And yeah, you have good grab range... but I like to think that Fox shouldn't get grabbed very much at all. I realize this is a bit idealistic, but gradually, Foxes are learning that in front of a shield is a bad idea... and more getting grabbed for being predictable or just overprioritized.

Also, I'm not really talking about cnosecutive utilts when I say "combo". Wario, for various reasons, falls into a LOT of varied combos involving jab, Jab Jab Cancel, dairs and utilts... mixed with grabs.
I'm not entirely sure as to the reason, but continuations with jabs in combos are incredibly effective against him... they really limit him into a shield, in which case, Fox should know how to punish. IN addition, your rolls and dodges are pretty easy to punish. Generally, I feel that Fox has a huge upper hand in pressuring here.

The Warios that randomly through out smashes are the bad Warios. I've been trying to condition them out of that. It's so much nicer to just save FSmashes for ridiculously strong kills. I don't have too much experience with Fox's jab combos in particular, but I know that Wario with good DI can avoid a lot of jab followups (i.e. third hit of ZSS' jab, any of Luigi's jab followups, he can DI through Ike's jab cancels, etc)... guess that remains to be seen. Rookie shoulda been at Apex

 

[SnowballBob33]

How does wario camp fox?

 

[PhantomX]

Wario can aircamp anyone. He can aircamp to get the first kill with wafts, and then aircamp for more wafts or just b/c he wants.

 

[Fenrir VII]

The Warios that randomly through out smashes are the bad Warios. I've been trying to condition them out of that. It's so much nicer to just save FSmashes for ridiculously strong kills.

No, I started that by saying that a Wario shouldn't just throw them out all the time, and a good player should not be expected to do so. However, I would still say that Wario will be much more likely in this match to throw out Smashes with no real lead in...especially around killing %s than Fox. Fox almost always has some sort of combo lead-in that lends to him getting free smashes from a safer move. This is example by Nair, utilt, smart drills, even jabs... and sometimes grabs/throws. Also, I could be incorrect here, and I apologize if I am, but I believe that Fox's smashes are, as a rule, faster than Wario's in ending lag, making him slightly less vulnerable.

I don't have too much experience with Fox's jab combos in particular, but I know that Wario with good DI can avoid a lot of jab followups (i.e. third hit of ZSS' jab, any of Luigi's jab followups, he can DI through Ike's jab cancels, etc)... guess that remains to be seen. Rookie shoulda been at Apex

Meh...Rook's a nub anyway (<3). I'm not really saying jab combos every time into things... that wasn't what I originally intended here. Yeah, it can combo into stuff, but I feel it is more useful just as pressure. At least in my style of play, a jab is used to keep you in shield, and stop you from jumping/grabbing out of it. It seems to work incredibly well against Wario since those are basically his two best options out of shield, most of the time. if the Fox is able to keep him in his shield, then he can easily control the game... and it really isn't hard to apply that kind of pressure here... It's a very momentum based match, with each character able to control the other, somewhat, at varying times, but I feel that Fox is easily capable to pressuring Wario into the point of breaking his game, then keeping the pressure on him.

Wario can aircamp anyone. He can aircamp to get the first kill with wafts, and then aircamp for more wafts or just b/c he wants.

Nah, I don't really buy into this belief... Fox is not one of the game's anti-air characters, but I feel he is absolutely in his best opsition when he is on the ground, and his opponent is in the air. At that point, you have to land with an aerial or an air-dodge (or just nothing) at some point, which is easily dash shield grabbed.


Just so there are any misconceptions, I feel this match is really quite even, with Wario's recovery and killing options against a lighter Fox, mixed with his aerial mobility and zoning, really helping him in the match.

 

[SnowballBob33]

Wario can aircamp anyone. He can aircamp to get the first kill with wafts, and then aircamp for more wafts or just b/c he wants.

I guess fox must be an exception. Think about it:
-Shdl/shtl means you cant shad. You will take damage from lasers and before long you have to stop camping
-Fox jumps very high quickly. His fair is 5 hits with a decent sized hitbox. If you avoid that then fox can shine stall to catch you airdodging and then dair.

With both of these things together, I don't see how its possible for wario to aircamp him.

 

[PhantomX]

Fair is SDIable, and Wario can aircamp anyone. Who cares about taking 1 percent every time you sh triple laser if you're a stock behind and can't kill him? Also, if that's really a nuisance he can always go for the ledge.

 

[Toronto Joe]

what exactly are these special "combos" that fox has on wario, im just wondering

also,dont question warios camp game,its pretty much what makes him so ****, lasers are very useful in some situations,but there not doing anything to stop his camping which is one of the problems in this matchup, to stop the camping you need to be upclose which is a high risk high reward thing when it comes to wario, thats why i find the matchup such a pain

i think its 55;45 Wario,slight advantage because hes a better character then fox

 

[SnowballBob33]

You make it seem like he turns invulnerable when you turn this "camp" switch on and after you are able to hit camp mode you win. I know he can camp but if you never get ahead then thats irrelevant which is the point of the matchup.
Yea you can DI fair, but you are still getting hit which would mean you're going to stop camping, and it still can lead to dair.
1% adds up and its a safe way of doing damage.
True he can go for the ledge, but you can get called for stalling if that's all you are doing.

Anyways, what do you think the matchups is?

 

[718_ROOKI3]

i would say it's 50-50

 

[Fenrir VII]

Fair is SDIable, and Wario can aircamp anyone. Who cares about taking 1 percent every time you sh triple laser if you're a stock behind and can't kill him? Also, if that's really a nuisance he can always go for the ledge.

also,dont question warios camp game,its pretty much what makes him so ****, lasers are very useful in some situations,but there not doing anything to stop his camping which is one of the problems in this matchup, to stop the camping you need to be upclose which is a high risk high reward thing when it comes to wario, thats why i find the matchup such a pain

Using "Wario can camp anybody" as proof that he can camp Fox is circular logic. I'm saying he can't, if the Fox is decent at all. With proper play, Fox should always be able to land an attack upon Wario's landing... making the air camping useless... I agree that lasers aren't going to do that much against it... but any kind of air or ground game on Fox's part should be very capable of shutting an air-camping game down.

Fox has several lasting powerful moves... and a couple lasting combo lead-ins that are made for punishing any sort of predictability... and air-camping is pretty predictable. He can, with proper timing, hit a Dair over your jump as you are landing.... or dash shield into an usmash against anything you have while you're in landing lag... it's not that hard to deal with this.

what exactly are these special "combos" that fox has on wario, im just wondering

I'm not really talking about anything "special"... Fox is just very good at continuations through jabs, grabs, dairs, utilts, etc, and Wario is very susceptible to them. Wario does not have many good options out of shield at all, so any kind of safe shield pressure works incredibly well against him.

This is an overexaggeration, but Wario just seems to fall into pretty much any combo you want, within reason. Shields block any kind of aerial countermeasure he throws, and allow you to keep attacking.

Geez, this is really hard to explain online... I wish I had a video of it.. but anyways:

with proper pressure and safe continuations with jab, utilt, grab, and dair, Fox is very capable of almost locking Wario in shield, and then punishing his position for it. It's quite fun.


The general consensus on this match here is that it is very even. I agree with this, maybe with a very small advantage to Fox. maybe.

 

[Fuego Fox]

warios physics are weird he is capable of grab release antics sooo

Grab release wario = FREE UPSMASH

however this is only of he comes out in the air but it works test it out and holla at me

 

[Fenrir VII]

warios physics are weird he is capable of grab release antics sooo

Grab release wario = FREE UPSMASH

however this is only of he comes out in the air but it works test it out and holla at me

Misleading.

Wario can ground break from grabs to avoid any followup at all

If he jump breaks (stupid), Fox can get a drill grab, or an usmash, or a number of other things.

 

[_Phloat_]

Correct me if I am wrong Warios, but I think they have the wrong idea on aircamping.


An "aircamping" Wario is not across the stage, slowly eating lasers. Or in your face, landing as you run and shield.

He is between the two. He is out of range of a quick aerial, his mobility making it quite hard to actually land one as he retreats and approaches randomly. But, he isn't quite far enough away for lasers to be safe. If you jump and shoot one he should be higher than it, and if he started coming at you a fraction of a second before said laser is fired, you are going to be punished. See, you will be landing in the same vulnerable position that you punish with a dashing shield!

You can't keep backing away to fire lasers, Wario is too fast for that. You can approach, and then we see CQC! Camping in this matchup isn't easy for both parties, but I believe, especially on a stage with platforms, Wario has the advantage in the lead, and in a losing situation, he can apply proper pressure to help him get out of it slightly better than fox.

It is for sure close enough that the better player will win most of the time.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Correct me if I am wrong Warios, but I think they have the wrong idea on aircamping.


An "aircamping" Wario is not across the stage, slowly eating lasers. Or in your face, landing as you run and shield.

He is between the two. He is out of range of a quick aerial, his mobility making it quite hard to actually land one as he retreats and approaches randomly. But, he isn't quite far enough away for lasers to be safe. If you jump and shoot one he should be higher than it, and if he started coming at you a fraction of a second before said laser is fired, you are going to be punished. See, you will be landing in the same vulnerable position that you punish with a dashing shield!

You can't keep backing away to fire lasers, Wario is too fast for that. You can approach, and then we see CQC! Camping in this matchup isn't easy for both parties, but I believe, especially on a stage with platforms, Wario has the advantage in the lead, and in a losing situation, he can apply proper pressure to help him get out of it slightly better than fox.

It is for sure close enough that the better player will win most of the time.

Nah, I got it. I'm just of the opinion (and experience) that Fox is able to get inside that pretty effectively. It can become annoying as anything, but I don't think that Wario can camp very effectively in this particular match... Wario's aerial mobility makes it tricky, sure.. but I believe that Fox can beat it out.
I never thought that lasers would do all that much... just land a few of them to refill other moves.

And yeah, I agree with that last statement. It's close enough that the better player, or the player who knows the match better, will win. usually.

 

[Fuego Fox]

Misleading.

Wario can ground break from grabs to avoid any followup at all

If he jump breaks (stupid), Fox can get a drill grab, or an usmash, or a number of other things.

I was under the impression that if you tilt the control stick to make it so that his feet aren't touching the floor that it forces him to air break I think this will work well on an uneven stage. but I could be wrong

also I would like to know how you force a char to immediately release you from the grab or is it a glitch that sometimes happens?

 

[_Phloat_]

Nah, I got it. I'm just of the opinion (and experience) that Fox is able to get inside that pretty effectively. It can become annoying as anything, but I don't think that Wario can camp very effectively in this particular match... Wario's aerial mobility makes it tricky, sure.. but I believe that Fox can beat it out.
I never thought that lasers would do all that much... just land a few of them to refill other moves.

And yeah, I agree with that last statement. It's close enough that the better player, or the player who knows the match better, will win. usually.

There are no options fox has that can get inside Wario, that he cannot punish if he sees them coming.

However, I think the same goes for Wario in the neutral position. He cannot do a single thing that beats Fox. They both must mix it up, and have different options for different situations. I think we would best benefit from breaking down common situations in the matchup, rather than discuss the "options" the characters have as a whole

I was under the impression that if you tilt the control stick to make it so that his feet aren't touching the floor that it forces him to air break I think this will work well on an uneven stage. but I could be wrong

also I would like to know how you force a char to immediately release you from the grab or is it a glitch that sometimes happens?

You were wrong. You can't tilt a grab.

You are correct that grabbing him on an uneven stage sometimes works though. Not a reliable kill method for sure, but something to know.

Not directed at you Vampiro, just Fox boards in general.. What can be done from an air release over the ledge? This is different than a regular release because fox isn't going to be running at all, rather he must accelerate completely off the edge. I know he can't u-smash.. can he dair if he doesn't get a running start?

 

[Fenrir VII]

I was under the impression that if you tilt the control stick to make it so that his feet aren't touching the floor that it forces him to air break I think this will work well on an uneven stage. but I could be wrong

also I would like to know how you force a char to immediately release you from the grab or is it a glitch that sometimes happens?

Nah... you can't force Wario to air break... if you could, Fox would have a 0-death on him easily. lol ...to be honest, I'm not sure how that works on sloping sections... so maybe, but you're talking to the wrong person for that.

Also, Zhamy would probably know the grab mechanics better than I do, but I believe it occurs in situations where you cannot normally land a grab, but are able to, due to some opponent movement. I typically have them when my opponent is knocked off the edge, or on slopes and such. I'm not completely sure on that.

 

[Zhamy]

I was under the impression that if you tilt the control stick to make it so that his feet aren't touching the floor that it forces him to air break I think this will work well on an uneven stage. but I could be wrong

also I would like to know how you force a char to immediately release you from the grab or is it a glitch that sometimes happens?

Fox is too short to force an air break.

Ask your other question again in the Q&A thread, because we should keep these on topic.

From what I can gather of discussion, it seems like this is just one of those really gay matchups, where everyone plays like a *****. It seems, theoretically, that Wario has a slight advantage, but again - very little Wario experience, so theorysmashing doesn't really apply.

 

[Fenrir VII]

There are no options fox has that can get inside Wario, that he cannot punish if he sees them coming.

However, I think the same goes for Wario in the neutral position. He cannot do a single thing that beats Fox. They both must mix it up, and have different options for different situations. I think we would best benefit from breaking down common situations in the matchup, rather than discuss the "options" the characters have as a whole

Wario having the bite seriously takes away effectiveness of the dash shield... but I believe it can still be useful as a pressure/bait.

Meh, I disagree with the first sentence, but we'll move on. What common situations are you discussing?

Not directed at you Vampiro, just Fox boards in general.. What can be done from an air release over the ledge? This is different than a regular release because fox isn't going to be running at all, rather he must accelerate completely off the edge. I know he can't u-smash.. can he dair if he doesn't get a running start?

Pretty sure a SH aerial works here... It's difficult for me to test it, but I am pretty sure Fox can land an aerial in Wario's stun, without a running start.