Match-Up Export #8: Wario (Pre-progress)

[_Phloat_]

Wario having the bite seriously takes away effectiveness of the dash shield... but I believe it can still be useful as a pressure/bait.

Meh, I disagree with the first sentence, but we'll move on. What common situations are you discussing?




Pretty sure a SH aerial works here... It's difficult for me to test it, but I am pretty sure Fox can land an aerial in Wario's stun, without a running start.

I can't think of a completely safe option... Can you?


I think the main situation that Wario wants to be in is above, diagonally, to fox.

How would you react if a Wario was above, lets say to the right, of you? He can fall at you and chomp/nair/dair/u-air the back of your shield, he can AD down and grab you (not as safe, but beats shield nicely). He can simply retreat with an airdodge. He can bike to get higher... not sure why he would do that, but it can be done .


How would a fox react to that placement of the characters?

 

[Zhamy]

How would a fox react to that placement of the characters?

Utilt has stupidly good priority. (I'm assuming to the right means Wario is behind Fox.)

Also, rising Fair.

 

[_Phloat_]

Rising fair can be ADed then punished. U-tilt I am not too familiar with, although I think a well timed aerial could take it out.

How would YOU, personally, react to a Wario that consistently positions himself there and punishes your rising Fairs?

 

[Fenrir VII]

I can't think of a completely safe option... Can you?


I think the main situation that Wario wants to be in is above, diagonally, to fox.

How would you react if a Wario was above, lets say to the right, of you? He can fall at you and chomp/nair/dair/u-air the back of your shield, he can AD down and grab you (not as safe, but beats shield nicely). He can simply retreat with an airdodge. He can bike to get higher... not sure why he would do that, but it can be done .


How would a fox react to that placement of the characters?

'

Since I have no idea what placement you are talking about, it makes it very hard to respond to this. Is Wario at full hop height, or SH?

I'm also not sure which direction you presume that Fox is facing here. For this conversation, I'm going to assume that Wario is at the peak of a FH, and they are facing each other. Wario is also (since you said diagonally 45 degrees in relation to Fox and the horizontal.

In this particular scenario, SH Fair beats everything you have. It beats the airdodge due to its multiple hits and a Nair following. It beats every attacking option you just listed.

Rising fair can be ADed then punished. U-tilt I am not too familiar with, although I think a well timed aerial could take it out.

How would YOU, personally, react to a Wario that consistently positions himself there and punishes your rising Fairs?

1. Utilt will beat (or trade with) every aerial you have.
2. SH Fair cannot be AD'ed, really
3. You're not going to punish the Fair from that position.
4. If the threat of a SH fair makes you air-dodge for some reason, I empty SH usmash.

 

[_Phloat_]

'

Since I have no idea what placement you are talking about, it makes it very hard to respond to this. Is Wario at full hop height, or SH?

I'm also not sure which direction you presume that Fox is facing here. For this conversation, I'm going to assume that Wario is at the peak of a FH, and they are facing each other. Wario is also (since you said diagonally 45 degrees in relation to Fox and the horizontal.

In this particular scenario, SH Fair beats everything you have. It beats the airdodge due to its multiple hits and a Nair following. It beats every attacking option you just listed.




1. Utilt will beat (or trade with) every aerial you have.
2. SH Fair cannot be AD'ed, really
3. You're not going to punish the Fair from that position.
4. If the threat of a SH fair makes you air-dodge for some reason, I empty SH usmash.

He is at FH height, but not at 45 Degrees. More vertical.. 70 degrees or so...

You can choose which direction you are facing of course. If fox better off facing backwards, I would assume this is the position he would be in.

I do not mean to airdodge alone. It would be a fast falled airdodge, as you jump, allowing me to get below you and into a better position to punish fox.

1. Can it be timed to avoid this happening? I am sincerely wondering, because I don't know much about Fox, especially his tilts.
2. The speed Wario has in the air means he won't have to AD the whole thing.
3. Which is why the AD is there, to get into a better position.
4. A good mixup, and dangerous to Wario. If you started doing that I would probably start drifting away or behind you more often, as well as doing my DJ + airdodge as you jump, allowing me safety and to resume my position.

I wish Wario's with more matchup knowledge about fox would jump in, I played Moogle when I was a GaW+MK main, so I don't know exactly how to handle him as Wario, I wasn't expecting to be the driving force behind this debate, I will try my best until the better debaters/Warios arrive =]


Edit: Fast falling to the ground as I drift away puts Fox in an awkward position, no? (Assuming he Fairs)

 

[Zhamy]

1. Can it be timed to avoid this happening? I am sincerely wondering, because I don't know much about Fox, especially his tilts.

3 frames, very very very low cooldown. You'd have to get around his other side, since it's unpunishable on reaction.

2. The speed Wario has in the air means he won't have to AD the whole thing.

The thing Fenrir is saying is that unless Wario has some whack sideways momentum, SH Fair will probably get in a hit or two. If not, Fair autocancels and Fox is back to where he was before.

Edit: Fast falling to the ground as I drift away puts Fox in an awkward position, no? (Assuming he Fairs)

Not particularly, because Fox can retreat easily from that range or run in, meaning it's probably best for Wario to take to the air again.

This matchup seems be a lot of "Wario camps in the air, Fox camps in the ground, let's do some crossups/mixups and see who gets hit first."

 

[Fenrir VII]

He is at FH height, but not at 45 Degrees. More vertical.. 70 degrees or so...

You can choose which direction you are facing of course. If fox better off facing backwards, I would assume this is the position he would be in.

I do not mean to airdodge alone. It would be a fast falled airdodge, as you jump, allowing me to get below you and into a better position to punish fox.

1. Can it be timed to avoid this happening? I am sincerely wondering, because I don't know much about Fox, especially his tilts.
2. The speed Wario has in the air means he won't have to AD the whole thing.
3. Which is why the AD is there, to get into a better position.
4. A good mixup, and dangerous to Wario. If you started doing that I would probably start drifting away or behind you more often, as well as doing my DJ + airdodge as you jump, allowing me safety and to resume my position.

I wish Wario's with more matchup knowledge about fox would jump in, I played Moogle when I was a GaW+MK main, so I don't know exactly how to handle him as Wario, I wasn't expecting to be the driving force behind this debate, I will try my best until the better debaters/Warios arrive =]


Edit: Fast falling to the ground as I drift away puts Fox in an awkward position, no? (Assuming he Fairs)

Fade away SHFair then, is the right option.. perfectly safe. However, I would do other things. I don't claim to always to the right thing. I was assuming you would be coming in a bit lower, so a normal SHFair would have worked, and you couldn't have airdodged. If you are coming in at that height, Fox should have to move in some way, yeah. So in that way, it's an awkward position... however, Fox is known for his mobility.

My first inclination would be to empty FH as Fox, and get above you. Since you would be FFing (as would quite a few Warios in your position now), I do not have fear of uair, and am allowed a free Dair, if positioned behind the potential shield, that should connect just about when you are in landing lag.

Secondly, Fox actually does well in this position to move forward to throw Wario off, and be a bit aggressive. This allows for a SH back and bair (which, as stupid as this sounds in writing, is a VERY effective counter point to this type of situation, I am finding.)

Rising Fair and an Uair (or pretty much any FH aerial) will put Fox above Wario, as Wario will AD through it. It's really hard to tell who gains an advantage because of this, though. That can go a number of different ways.. that are just too many to consider here.

Utilt also pretty much ruins your approach from this angle... I can't see Wario timing against it...

We are really talking situational point and counterpoint mindgame scenarios, here though... Whereas they are helpful in game, they do not really come into play in a matchup discussion so much... : /

 

[_Phloat_]

I think they do. These are read for improving lesser players' skills as well as talking among the better players. If a player is having trouble with X situation, it is good to have the options fleshed out.

Plus, having an unanswerable tactic often makes matchups heavily in ones favor, if they are willing to abuse it enough. Searching for such tactics only makes sense.

I can SDI out of your fair and dair, btw. I dunno if I can u-air after that, but nair is fast enough

What can you do If I dair you? You can SDI out left or right, and you fall fast enough that a u-tilt is possible i guess...

 

[718_ROOKI3]

I think they do. These are read for improving lesser players' skills as well as talking among the better players. If a player is having trouble with X situation, it is good to have the options fleshed out.

Plus, having an unanswerable tactic often makes matchups heavily in ones favor, if they are willing to abuse it enough. Searching for such tactics only makes sense.

I can SDI out of your fair and dair, btw. I dunno if I can u-air after that, but nair is fast enough

What can you do If I dair you? You can SDI out left or right, and you fall fast enough that a u-tilt is possible i guess...

Yea fox falls too darn fast in this game

 

[Fenrir VII]

I think they do. These are read for improving lesser players' skills as well as talking among the better players. If a player is having trouble with X situation, it is good to have the options fleshed out.

Plus, having an unanswerable tactic often makes matchups heavily in ones favor, if they are willing to abuse it enough. Searching for such tactics only makes sense.

I can SDI out of your fair and dair, btw. I dunno if I can u-air after that, but nair is fast enough

What can you do If I dair you? You can SDI out left or right, and you fall fast enough that a u-tilt is possible i guess...

Well, it's an interesting dicussion for the players, but it usually doesn't come into play in a matchup discussion unless,(as you said) for some reason, one player cannot beat it.

Btw, in normal play, Dair cannot really be SDI'ed to where Fox can't get at the least an utilt after. If you get hit very high at the start of the Dair, sure...DI it... however, if you get hit (as most Fox players will be using) with only 3-4 hits of it at the end, and you're on the ground, it is nearly impossible to correctly DI out of.

Fair, you can SDI out of, with good DI, but really, has anybody seen somebody consistent with that? And it also depends on the Fox players momentum and spacing of the move... so it's a bit situational too.

Yeah, Wario's Dair is very escapable... and one of Wario's least scary aerials here.

 

[718_ROOKI3]

Well, it's an interesting dicussion for the players, but it usually doesn't come into play in a matchup discussion unless,(as you said) for some reason, one player cannot beat it.

Btw, in normal play, Dair cannot really be SDI'ed to where Fox can't get at the least an utilt after. If you get hit very high at the start of the Dair, sure...DI it... however, if you get hit (as most Fox players will be using) with only 3-4 hits of it at the end, and you're on the ground, it is nearly impossible to correctly DI out of.

Fair, you can SDI out of, with good DI, but really, has anybody seen somebody consistent with that? And it also depends on the Fox players momentum and spacing of the move... so it's a bit situational too.

Yeah, Wario's Dair is very escapable... and one of Wario's least scary aerials here.

Yea me personally i tend to purposly not finish my fairs or dairs if i see people SDI out of it, so since im spacing properly and deliberately not finishing my moves i can add a nair or land a sheild grab, even hold jab to see how stupid you are to fall into it

 

[_Phloat_]

Well, it's an interesting dicussion for the players, but it usually doesn't come into play in a matchup discussion unless,(as you said) for some reason, one player cannot beat it.

Btw, in normal play, Dair cannot really be SDI'ed to where Fox can't get at the least an utilt after. If you get hit very high at the start of the Dair, sure...DI it... however, if you get hit (as most Fox players will be using) with only 3-4 hits of it at the end, and you're on the ground, it is nearly impossible to correctly DI out of.

Fair, you can SDI out of, with good DI, but really, has anybody seen somebody consistent with that? And it also depends on the Fox players momentum and spacing of the move... so it's a bit situational too.

Yeah, Wario's Dair is very escapable... and one of Wario's least scary aerials here.

I believe that situations are the base of any matchup. When one occurs, winning it can mean setting them up for another situation you win often, or one their character cannot deal with.. You have to look at risk-reward. Situations are merely how a characters attributes help them or hurt them in a certain scenario, what do you think matchup discussions should be? (Not being condescending, how would you like to discuss this?)

Yea, the late dair is really hard to get out of. I agree with that. I have a question: What determines whether dair combos into anything? Sometimes I hold shield and get a perfect shield on an u-smash, sometimes I press shield and get smashed and die horribly.. is it how high he is and how long it takes him to land or something?

Yea, I have seen someone beyond consistent with SDI. Reflex can SDI out of multihit moves, and fart before they are even finished, as can some of my friends. I can get out of fox's fair, but because of my c-stick mashing I just aerial the wrong way and get hit again.. but once I learn the timing, I can punish it yes.

.... You can't say fair is hard to escape, but dair isn't. Plus, it iso safe that even if you get out, you probably aren't going to punish.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Yea, the late dair is really hard to get out of. I agree with that. I have a question: What determines whether dair combos into anything? Sometimes I hold shield and get a perfect shield on an u-smash, sometimes I press shield and get smashed and die horribly.. is it how high he is and how long it takes him to land or something?

Yea, I have seen someone beyond consistent with SDI. Reflex can SDI out of multihit moves, and fart before they are even finished, as can some of my friends. I can get out of fox's fair, but because of my c-stick mashing I just aerial the wrong way and get hit again.. but once I learn the timing, I can punish it yes.

.... You can't say fair is hard to escape, but dair isn't. Plus, it iso safe that even if you get out, you probably aren't going to punish.

Nah, this is fine with me.

Dair combos are based on percentage of opponent at the last hit of the Dair (and thus hitstun put onto him). It also varies a bit on when that hit lands in relation to when Fox lands, but mostly based on %...
For example, Dair usmash starts comboing around 90-100%

What I was saying about Fox's Fair is that Fox can have sideways momentum here (either direction) too. I could see how up-DI might work... but side to side might not... that's all I'm saying.

I'm not sure what your last sentence there is saying, to be honest.

I think Fair is quite a bit easier to SDI out of than Dair... I also think they're both pretty safe to use, even when SDIed out of...

 

[_Phloat_]

I mean you can't say our dair is easy to escape, and your fair isn't.

We are talking about the highest levels of play here, where a Wario can see that fair hit and go up.

I would CP a fox to RC. Where would you CP a wario?

 

[SnowballBob33]

I don't like the argument of highest level of play. At the highest level of play, nobody gets hit because their are few combos in brawl. You have to consider the best, logical, reasonable level of play. The change of DI'ing some things takes extreme speed, timing, and precision which people just can't do consistenly.

Fox's fair can be DI'd but its harder
Wario's dair can be DI'd easier though.

 

[718_ROOKI3]

I don't like the argument of highest level of play. At the highest level of play, nobody gets hit because their are few combos in brawl. You have to consider the best, logical, reasonable level of play. The change of DI'ing some things takes extreme speed, timing, and precision which people just can't do consistenly.

Fox's fair can be DI'd but its harder
Wario's dair can be DI'd easier though.

100% Agree

 

[_Phloat_]

I don't like the argument of highest level of play. At the highest level of play, nobody gets hit because their are few combos in brawl. You have to consider the best, logical, reasonable level of play. The change of DI'ing some things takes extreme speed, timing, and precision which people just can't do consistenly.

Fox's fair can be DI'd but its harder
Wario's dair can be DI'd easier though.

I quit, im done with this thread.

Fox beats wario 60 - 50, no that is not a typo.

Bye.

 

[SnowballBob33]

I played slikvik at a tourney saturday.
He won, by one stock and like 50 dmg.
The map was yoshi's and I really couldnt laser, so I guess that means dont cp there
It's really hard to land usmash unless you read how he gets off the ledge. your main killing move is going to be bair
Fox's fair works well.
Utilt *****.
all the usual wario stuff works
I kinda SD'd. Lets just say I did rising fair, without the rising, lol.
So yea, im goin to say 50-50

 

[DMG]

Lol.

Not that it really matters, but it's easier to SDI out of Fox's Fair than Wario's Dair, at least for me anyways. Each hit of Fair has a larger SDI frame window than Wario's Dair, letting you input more directions per hit than Wario's Dair. Not only that, but in the instance where an opponent SDI's out or Fair/Dair, Wario can chase them/follow them better during Dair than Fox can with Fair.

Say I hit someone with Dair, they SDI out to the side. I drift Dair back over to them since Wario doesn't have a problem moving one direction quickly or even changing directions on a dime. If I Fair with Fox and Someone SDI's behind me, I'm not gonna be able to catch them unless I was already like retreating with Fair in the first place.

As for Fox's Dair vs Fox's Fair, depends on if they are short hopped. Short hopped Dair is kinda easy to SDI, but there's relatively little risk to Fox if someone escapes. SH Fair is a bit harder to escape, but there are a lot of characters who can punish Fox while he is still in his attacking animation once they escape.

Those move comparisons are not really an important facet of the matchup, but I felt I would get that out of the way.

As for Wario vs Fox, I like the matchup. It forces both characters to think a lot, and neither character has a dominating aspect or overly safe approach/kill move. I would give a slight edge to Wario in safeness, mobility (air only) Killing (both in power and versatility), and recovery. I would give Fox a slight edge in attack speed, ground mobility, and overall range (It's not like Marth vs Wario where it's an all out spacing war, and yet it's not like Sonic who has to rely on his speed entirely to get inside someone's range.)

I would rate it overall 55:45 to 60:40 Wario, 60:40 or maybe barely 65:35 (Only if the CP was just ridiculous for Wario, which I don't see one like that against Fox) Wario being on one of his CP stages like Rainbow Cruise, and 55:45 being a really close neutral.

 

[SnowballBob33]

^^I agree, with that. 55-45

 

[Jenkins]

Definately advantage for Wario.

yes. im done with this matchup. ill just use marth instead.

 

[718_ROOKI3]

yes. im done with this matchup. ill just use marth instead.

damm that was fast lmao

 

[Fenrir VII]

Nah, think it's straight even.

 

[Jenkins]

damm that was fast lmao

nah, ive been playing it for awhile, and im sick of psued-comboing wario, and then have him come back and **** you anyways.

by the by, im almost postitive that wario chomp---> wario grab is a legit combo at low %.

i couldn't get out of it because fox falls so **** fast

 

[718_ROOKI3]

nah, ive been playing it for awhile, and im sick of psued-comboing wario, and then have him come back and **** you anyways.

by the by, im almost postitive that wario chomp---> wario grab is a legit combo at low %.

i couldn't get out of it because fox falls so **** fast

Yea it is man, im not about to start dropping crazy knowledge on this but i just dance around him and laser alot, the more wario wants to dance around the stage and airdodge i'll dance around the stage too except i'll be shooting him while doing it

 

[RPK]

Fox CAN grab release Wario. Its just that he has to be grabbed out of the air I think by a pivot grab. I mean...Its like with Squirtle. How he can perform a grab release on himself, all the way across the stage. Warios are exempt from that statement though, since apparently they can grab release themselves into Uair...=3= thats just plain ********. Also, Ganondorf grab release on Wario all the way to the ledge, into a spike. Ew...So ga*.

But, anyways...Fox can grab release Wario if he catches him right out of the air. Just like how he can grab release Meta Knight if he catches him right out of the air.

 

[718_ROOKI3]

Fox CAN grab release Wario. Its just that he has to be grabbed out of the air I think by a pivot grab. I mean...Its like with Squirtle. How he can perform a grab release on himself, all the way across the stage. Warios are exempt from that statement though, since apparently they can grab release themselves into Uair...=3= thats just plain ********. Also, Ganondorf grab release on Wario all the way to the ledge, into a spike. Ew...So ga*.

But, anyways...Fox can grab release Wario if he catches him right out of the air. Just like how he can grab release Meta Knight if he catches him right out of the air.

Yea ive done it to warios before, it's really good but situational

 

[DMG]

Lol I can't believe this is still "Pre-progress" we have achieved a lot of progress here haha.

Also for the grab release, I think Fox has to Pivot Grab Wario after he has double jumped, and before he lands (meaning if Wario double Jumps, falls, airdodges a bit before he hits the ground, and you grab him right when he experiences the 2-4 frames of landing lag, it won't work.)

MK can do this to him as well as maybe 2 other characters who can't normally force him to air break out of a grab (excluding holding him over an edge or over a slope of course). It's good to know, but pretty situational.

 

[718_ROOKI3]

Lol I can't believe this is still "Pre-progress" we have achieved a lot of progress here haha.

Also for the grab release, I think Fox has to Pivot Grab Wario after he has double jumped, and before he lands (meaning if Wario double Jumps, falls, airdodges a bit before he hits the ground, and you grab him right when he experiences the 2-4 frames of landing lag, it won't work.)

MK can do this to him as well as maybe 2 other characters who can't normally force him to air break out of a grab (excluding holding him over an edge or over a slope of course). It's good to know, but pretty situational.

The infamous DMG, i definitly have to play you sometime i hope to run into you soon

 

[DMG]

The infamous DMG, i definitly have to play you sometime i hope to run into you soon

You gotta go to Genesis man, either that or maybe EVO or something.

I'll work on getting to the EC in the summer. I've been short money wise but I'm set for the rest of the summer as long as I win Doubles in like, 2 tournaments and place in the money in 3 of them for singles.

 

[718_ROOKI3]

You gotta go to Genesis man, either that or maybe EVO or something.

I'll work on getting to the EC in the summer. I've been short money wise but I'm set for the rest of the summer as long as I win Doubles in like, 2 tournaments and place in the money in 3 of them for singles.

I hear you bro GOOD LUCK with winning those tournies

 

[RPK]

Your grabbing Wario out of the air with a reverse pivot grab. Of course its situational >_> but it is nice to know that you CAN do it.

 

[718_ROOKI3]

Your grabbing Wario out of the air with a reverse pivot grab. Of course its situational >_> but it is nice to know that you CAN do it.

Fox's grab range is beast dont underestimate it

 

[DarkAura]

Fox's grab range is beast dont underestimate it

ha agreed it's a lot larger than most people think

also i think it's the slightest advantage for fox (like 52/48 fox) just because wario is easily gimped by fox but thats really it... other than than fox should rely on his grab game and his superior aerial game

 

[DMG]

ha agreed it's a lot larger than most people think

also i think it's the slightest advantage for fox (like 52/48 fox) just because wario is easily gimped by fox but thats really it... other than than fox should rely on his grab game and his superior aerial game

Wait... gimped? Wario is... one of the hardest characters to gimp.

Let's look at this from a different perspective: most attacks from Fox will either be kinda easy to DI into the corner/vertically, or you have Usmash which you can try to move in the corner. At that height, Fox can't just double jump out that far, hit Wario, and also make it back safely (most of the time he won't be able to even reach Wario). This is before he uses his bike too.

MK and Marth have trouble gimping Wario. I don't see Fox handling him any easier when it comes to recovering.

 

[DarkAura]

i dont really fight wario that much but when i do i usually get a kill off a drill shine/shine spike at rather low percents... i don't usually have problems with gimping wario

 

[DMG]

I don't wanna sound absolute, but he's probably doing it wrong then.

 

[KheldarVII]

i dont really fight wario that much but when i do i usually get a kill off a drill shine/shine spike at rather low percents... i don't usually have problems with gimping wario

"Well I've done it to one other person so it accounts for every person out there."

Wario has a beast of a double jump and also has a bike to back it up. The only thing you can use against the bike is almost knowing where he's going to end up after ejecting. This is when I prompty use the B-air, but how often is he gonna fall for that?

 

[PhantomX]

He'd fall for it maybe once... if he's very very bad or you're very very lucky.

Wario can bike jump and snap the ledge from the blast zone...

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

Fox's grab range is beast dont underestimate it

To be honest, I don't really think it's his grab range that is beast, I believe it's his speed. Like he can cut space so quick and dash cancel shield grab making the grab range feel longer.