Match-Up Export #2: Meta Knight (In-Progress)

[Zhamy]

Can we talk about numbers for the MK matchup? I still think it hovers around 65:35.

What I said before.

 

[SnowballBob33]

Fox vs Mk isnt 65-35, its more like 55-45. Azen's fox got m2k to last stock high %. that obviously means the matchup isnt that bad.

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

Fox vs Mk isnt 65-35, its more like 55-45. Azen's fox got m2k to last stock high %. that obviously means the matchup isnt that bad.

Well Azen was pretty good though back then. =3

I don't know though, MK's gimps on Fox are just so **** painful.

 

[Zhamy]

Fox vs Mk isnt 65-35, its more like 55-45. Azen's fox got m2k to last stock high %. that obviously means the matchup isnt that bad.

Unfortunately, that doesn't really mean much.

 

[crifer]

60-40 or 65-35,
idk the matchup that good,
but gimps are a big factor in this matchup >.<

 

[Sukai]

but gimps are a big factor in this matchup >.<

Bingo!
Fox is gimp bait, simply put.
Add to Meta Knight's edge guarding abilities, I think it's an accurate say of 60:40, or somewhere around there.
65:35 I say.

 

[SnowballBob33]

i guess 60-40. only because of gimpibility. It shouldn't be too much of a problem if you mix up your recovery. If you see them waiting for you to illusion, the wait and up b to the edge. If they are on the edge, illusion cancel so u get momentum and end up half way across the map. If you end up below the edge though, and metaknight is off the stage then its GAME.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I don't think Fox should be getting gimped that much in this match. MK can cover a lot, sure... but Fox has quite a few options here... with MK's lack of low-sending moves (assuming proper DI) (the only one I can think of is the top of his upB, which isn't going to happen on a regular basis), Fox's mix ups in recovery are quite suitable for allowing him to get back to the stage around MK's stuff...

Of course in the recovery vs edgeguarding category, MK sorely wins. I do not think this just gives him the match though.

 

[Sukai]

I disagree.
Meta Knight needs no real strategy, he can jump off the stage, after Fox and throw in a few down airs, one is primarily enough to cost a stock in Fox's case. Fox lacks priority, Meta Knight on the other hand in chocked full of vitamin P and thus can safely attack Fox out ony recovery or stall move.
Perhaps if Fox catches him by surprise, maybe, but that's not a viable subject in match up discussions.

The fact of the matter is that Meta Knight has a truckload of options off stage, and Fox does not.

My advice is don't stall, a Meta Knight will try to gimp you, so your mission is to get back on stage, foxcopter and illusion, fast, pray that you weren't baited into doing so.

 

[_Phloat_]

Actually, I'm a contributing member to the Fox boards who prefers that other people don't waste their time reading spammy, useless posts like yours. You're not that important, idiot.

Can we talk about numbers for the MK matchup? I still think it hovers around 65:35.

Why would you need to do that? Snake can only Dtilt while he's crawling and moves slow as hell. Just keep lasering, and if he does nothing but crawl, call him out for stalling.

The guy who thinks crawling is stalling is calling someone else's posts useless?

 

[Zhamy]

The guy who thinks crawling is stalling is calling someone else's posts useless?

Reading comprehension - It's for real pros.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I disagree.
Meta Knight needs no real strategy, he can jump off the stage, after Fox and throw in a few down airs, one is primarily enough to cost a stock in Fox's case. Fox lacks priority, Meta Knight on the other hand in chocked full of vitamin P and thus can safely attack Fox out ony recovery or stall move.
Perhaps if Fox catches him by surprise, maybe, but that's not a viable subject in match up discussions.

The fact of the matter is that Meta Knight has a truckload of options off stage, and Fox does not.

My advice is don't stall, a Meta Knight will try to gimp you, so your mission is to get back on stage, foxcopter and illusion, fast, pray that you weren't baited into doing so.

Don't get me wrong... IN the Recovery vs. edgeguarding portion of this matchup, MK is EASILY in an advantage position. I'm not arguing that one at all.

I don't really think Fox can do all that much to edgeguard (some, but not a lot), and MK finds it fairly easy.

What I am arguing with here: I believe Fox has the tools necessary to be able to safely recover most of the time. I don't think he's just going to get gimped every life... and I think if a Fox player does, he needs to practice recoveries.

And none of Fox's recoveries (save rising Fair) has much of any priority here... In most situations, however, Fox will be able to positiong himself to have several different recovery options, so MK cannot cover them all, and Fox is allowed a free shot at the stage, and it's just mindgames from there.

 

[Toronto Joe]

Mks edgeguarding is =[ now that doesnt mean Fox dies everytime hes offstage,but your going to be taking damage most of the time, as MK i like to grab release fox at the edge and follow up with my own chains, under the stage Fox is pretty much ****ed so avoid being there at all costs, MK can also just hog the edge and effortlessly punish Fox as he tries to return, nair is AMAZING at taking fox out of up-b/side-b and well placed dairs or shuttleloops under the stage make firefox very risky, dont forget about nado,that just eats foxs recovery up

the best thing you can do is DI or recover as high as possible + rising fair and illusion at mid height or control where you descent via shine stall and speetspot the edge/recover onstage

this matchup is very winnable imo, weirdly enough i feel as though Fox actually can out pressure Mk, so long as he isnt spamming the nado you should be able to control the match, but Mk is just so good out of shield on the ground in the air and offstage you need to be on your game at all time,hes such a complete character that can take advantage of all of foxs faults ;_:

its about 60/40 MK

Characters to use: Snake,Mk,Falco(as a CP)
CPs: FD,Smashville,Seige
Bans: Frigate

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33ZPwl4OonQ&feature=related Heres another vid of me vs a mk

why dont we go to the fox chat anymore !_! </3

 

[Sukai]

The guy who thinks crawling is stalling is calling someone else's posts useless?

On topic dude.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Mks edgeguarding is =[ now that doesnt mean Fox dies everytime hes offstage,but your going to be taking damage most of the time, as MK i like to grab release fox at the edge and follow up with my own chains, under the stage Fox is pretty much ****ed so avoid being there at all costs, MK can also just hog the edge and effortlessly punish Fox as he tries to return, nair is AMAZING at taking fox out of up-b/side-b and well placed dairs or shuttleloops under the stage make firefox very risky, dont forget about nado,that just eats foxs recovery up

the best thing you can do is DI or recover as high as possible + rising fair and illusion at mid height or control where you descent via shine stall and speetspot the edge/recover onstage

this matchup is very winnable imo, weirdly enough i feel as though Fox actually can out pressure Mk, so long as he isnt spamming the nado you should be able to control the match, but Mk is just so good out of shield on the ground in the air and offstage you need to be on your game at all time,hes such a complete character that can take advantage of all of foxs faults ;_:

Very good post. Couple comments:

tornado is very escapable and very punishable. SDI up, and you pop out like nothing... and are free (most of the time) to land a Dair on it... so its uses as both an edgeguarding tool and an on-stage tactic is terrible for MK in this match. He's much better if he throws tornado away, and relies on his other...better stuff.

And yeah... since MK does not have a plethora of low-sending moves, I am basing much of my argument on the fact that, with proper DI, Fox is able to recover pretty high the whole match... and thus has MANY options here... If you get stuck around stage level with nothing else, you have a problem, but otherwise, I never have found it all that hard to recover in the match. MK always will pose an edgeguarding threat... that's certain... I just don't think it's "oh noes! Fox will get gimped every life!!" bad.

The grab release thing is certainly interesting.. and could easily put Fox in a bad way... something else to consider, I guess.

 

[Zhamy]

and are free (most of the time) to land a Dair on it

Re: Tornado - this isn't true; your best bet is a Nair, and if the MK knows what he's doing, you'll be trying to outprioritize the edge of the Tornado, meaning "lol gl get *****." But Tornado isn't even that good.

 

[SnowballBob33]

I forgot about that DI thing. Nothing really should be sending you low.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Re: Tornado - this isn't true; your best bet is a Nair, and if the MK knows what he's doing, you'll be trying to outprioritize the edge of the Tornado, meaning "lol gl get *****." But Tornado isn't even that good.

While it is true that a Nair has a larger hitbox against it... Dair breaks through with proper spacing, and I feel is overall the better option.

And again... even if you get hit by the tornado, you SDI up and pop out in perfect placement for a Dair on top. This is true unless the MK is moving straight sideways (which I have only seen a couple times, and is overall easier to beat than the other.)

Fox is also quite good at chasing tornados out of shield and punishing a still lagging MK.

Overall, I feel it's about MK's worst choice in the match.

 

[_Phloat_]

Reading comprehension - It's for real pros.

You said if he does nothing but crawl, call him out for stalling.. which shows blatant misunderstanding of the way the game is actually played at tournaments. I don't understand how I may have failed reading comprehension... But I am sure you were being "sarcastic" like the time you said you could DI out of Zelda's u-smash

On topic dude.

Sorry. Anyways. How easy is it for a good MK to DI out of the dair to prevent an u-smash? Can he hold towards the fox's back and be safe? How do you guys return to the ground against a MK that can abuse falling u-airs in tandem with punishing the 2 frames you are vulnerable with upon landing? Just wondering.

 

[Zhamy]

You said if he does nothing but crawl, call him out for stalling.. which shows blatant misunderstanding of the way the game is actually played at tournaments. I don't understand how I may have failed reading comprehension... But I am sure you were being "sarcastic" like the time you said you could DI out of Zelda's u-smash

Of course. I'm glad you know how to read.

 

[_Phloat_]

Now I am confused.

Anyways, new matchup topic... so lets end this.


EDIT: Ooops.. thought the thread saying Fox vs Marth/MK was a matchup thread being led by Tyrant... Well nvm. Still, end this nao.

 

[Xiivi]

This is the only Fox vs. MK match-up topic. It's a topic dedicated solely to the match-up and will thus never "end" until the match-up is fully explored (which is won't be for quite a while considering how slowly Fox's metagame has been growing up until recently).

 

[HiddenBowser]

While it is true that a Nair has a larger hitbox against it... Dair breaks through with proper spacing, and I feel is overall the better option.

And again... even if you get hit by the tornado, you SDI up and pop out in perfect placement for a Dair on top. This is true unless the MK is moving straight sideways (which I have only seen a couple times, and is overall easier to beat than the other.)

Fox is also quite good at chasing tornados out of shield and punishing a still lagging MK.

Overall, I feel it's about MK's worst choice in the match.

If your opponents good, he'll move the tornado so you hit the edge of it. Like Zhamy said, you get *****... And they're gonna keep you there. If you can get out by simply SDI'ing up, your opponent's doing it wrong. They can keep you trapped in the corner of the tornado and will move depending on how you DI to prevent you from popping out.

 

[Fenrir VII]

If your opponents good, he'll move the tornado so you hit the edge of it. Like Zhamy said, you get *****... And they're gonna keep you there. If you can get out by simply SDI'ing up, your opponent's doing it wrong. They can keep you trapped in the corner of the tornado and will move depending on how you DI to prevent you from popping out.

Um... no

The corner you speak of is the easiest part to SDI up out of... I'm not sure where all this criticism is coming from. I've been doing this on numerous MKs (including m2k) since I started Fox. Guys, it's not hard to DI out of the nado...

I understand that the MK will not just go "Here, Dair me".. however, since the Tornado brings you slightly closer, DIing out of it allows you to land the Dair, if the MK does not already have established sideways momentum.

I have had problem in the past with a rising tornado catching me out of the DI a few times. I'm assuming it's an odd timing situation, because sometimes, the DI get you out, and sometimes, he just catches you... However, Fox's falling speed (at least at low % and nado knockbacks) allows Fox to fall and actually punish MK for it...

Like I said, I really don't know where all the criticism is coming from... but meh on all that.
Why are we discussing tornado anyway? as I said before, it's probably MK's worst option in this match other than spamming attacking down-bs.

 

[Toronto Joe]

on levels with multiple platforms i find nado good vs Fox

 

[Curaga]

I understand this is an old topic and all, but considering MetaKnight is the hugest threat at most tournament scenes, I was hoping that more MK talk could be had in this thread?

Other recent topics cover things like grab release -> upsmash, but in the interest of furthering Fox I think we can push forth more effort here, yeah?

I have some questions: Is full-hop Dair the same as short-hop Dair? This might sound silly, but I'm confused because especially in this match up.. a full hop Dair seems to secure a up-smash at different percents/times/scenario from a short hopped one.

And, is there any move outside of tornado (that we know of) that can be beat/countered by a well timed shine?

Somethings that I would like to add, (which may seem horribly obvious..)

Side-Bing is never a good idea when used offensively. MK has several answers, the most annoying being tornado which will eat you alive. However, a risky *** way of getting space is to jump and side-b cancel from ground, and grab onto a ledge. This is great because it lets you gtfo, but amazingly hard to do without a lot of practice as you will sometimes fly past the ledge and just suicide.

The most important thing that I have to add.. that I haven't really seen a lot of other people do..
Shield grab tornado. Even if MK is coming from beneath you to catch you a platform, as soon as MK's tornado is in front of you, just jab A in shield. It also works on MK's side-B drill thing .. and in my opinion is an incredibly crucial thing for all Foxes to be aware of.

Some MKs I play will just stop tornadoing all together, unless I'm aerial.

But, of course, Tornado =/= MK. So all his other moves are still problems. XD

 

[Uzima (Uzi)]

And, is there any move outside of tornado (that we know of) that can be beat/countered by a well timed shine?

I have shine spiked meta's out of the up-b before, but i dont recomed it due to its insaine timing required.