Match-Up Export #2: Meta Knight (In-Progress)

[Xiivi]

Meta Knight

Summary of Key Points​

Advantages​

Disadvantages​

Strategy & Match-Up Mentality​

Aerial Game:
Ground Game:
Approach:
Defense:
Camping Game:
Edge Game:
Surviving:
Killing:
Frame Data:

Banning & Counter-Picking​

Stage Striking:

• Possible Fox Strikes...
• Possible Meta Knight Strikes...
• To Be Classified...
  Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), Delfino Plaza*, Battleship Halberd*, Lylat Cruise, Pokemon Stadium 1, Castle Siege*, Brinstar*
  *Indicates a stage that is not commonly starter, but possible. Neither player should depend on these.

Stage Banning:

• Possible Fox Bans...
• Possible Meta Knight Bans...
• To Be Classified...
  Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Pokémon Stadium 1, Brinstar, Corneria*, Distant Planet*, Frigate Orpheon, Green Hill Zone*, Jungle Japes, Luigi's Mansion, Norfair, Pictochat*, Pirate Ship, Pokémon Stadium 2, Rainbow Cruise, Yoshi's Island (Pipes)*, Green Greens*, Mario Circuit*, Onett*, Port Town Aero Dive*, Skyworld*
  *Indicates a stage that is not commonly legal, but possible. Neither player should depend on these.

Stage Counterpicks:

• Possible Fox Counterpicks...
• Possible Meta Knight Counterpicks...
• To Be Classified...
  Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Pokémon Stadium 1, Brinstar, Corneria*, Distant Planet*, Frigate Orpheon, Green Hill Zone*, Jungle Japes, Luigi's Mansion, Norfair, Pictochat*, Pirate Ship, Pokémon Stadium 2, Rainbow Cruise, Yoshi's Island (Pipes)*, Green Greens*, Mario Circuit*, Onett*, Port Town Aero Dive*, Skyworld*
  *Indicates a stage that is not commonly legal, but possible. Neither player should depend on these.

Character Counterpicks:

• Possible Fox Counterpicks...
  Secondaries highly recommended:
  In Discussion
• Possible Meta Knight Counterpicks...
  Unnecessary

Videos & Other Outside Resources​

Videos

• Matches on Starter Stages
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• Matches on Counterpick Stages

Other

• Thread Specifics
• Misc.

Verdict​

General Ratio: XX:XX​

Stage Dependent Ratios:

• ?: XX:XX
• ?: XX:XX

Planned Updates:
Links to Matches
Link to Meta Knight Boards Fox Match-Up Discussion
Links to All Previous Meta Knight Discussion from the Fox Boards
Stage Banning
Stage Striking
Stage Counter-Picking
Possible Secondaries
Chaingrab Specifics
Dealing with Opponent Projects
Utilizing your Own Projectiles
Approach
Defense
Recovery
Edgeguarding
Killing & Surviving
Frame Data Comparisons
Advantages & Disadvantages
Key Points

 

[M@v]

First off, this is what NOT to do vs MK, especially when he planks. (MK is umbra's main btw, he got extremely lucky with the random)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPN-Xs9hPYE&feature=channel_page
I admit I played bad, and since they were friendlies, I just didnt care at the end, but its actually a good reference for bad choices.



Aerial Game: Ridiculous. Mk got arguably the best aerials in the game. Be very cautious when airborne vs him. Stick to shorthopped aerials if you can.

Ground Game: Still really good, but a lot more bearable than his airgame. Watch out for mk's crazy dash grab range.
Be ready for tornado approaches. Your lasers don't stop tornado like Falco's.

Approach: Don't. Spam lasers. If you HAVE to, poke nairs.

Defense: Laser camping. Sh dair if he comes with a dash attack. Nair, dair, or shine at the top of the tornado to beat it.

Camping Game: Shdl and shl. Only do grounded lasers if hes across the map. Mk can gain ground too quickly to risk it otherwise.

Edge Game: Get the hell off as soon as your invulnerability frames wear of. Otherwise your getting shuttle loop stage spiked.

Surviving: later
Killing: later
Frame Data:



Banning & Counter-Picking

Stage Striking: Strike Lylat first for sure. Then I'd say Battlefield or yoshis.


Stage Banning: rainbow cruise, rainbow cruise, RAINBOW CRUISE! Its mk's personal play ground of death. Other two stages that are good to ban are luigi's(If legal) and Lylat.


Stage Counterpicks:
FD-Mainly because its one of your power stages.
Halberd-Low ceiling= quick upsmash kills on mk, and the second part is essentially FD with one platform.
Pirate Ship(If legal)-the water provides great cover from MK's edgeguards
Corneria(if legal)-It gives you crazy early kills and an infinite, but keep in mind his dsmash kills crazy early as well.
More to come.


I believe this matchup is anywhere from 40:60 MK to 35:65 MK.

 

[Zhamy]

You lost to Random, you noob.

 

[A6M Zero]

M@V, why so drillious?

And those shines Q_Q Did you even read my anti-planking thread? This makes me sad...

 

[xxmoosexx]

i dont understand ur guide, what thte heck is stage striking?

Cant u jsut say, ban these ones, and CP these ones, and u have the adv on these ones?


There is a perfect example of a really good guide to kill MK on the marth boards, use it as an example of how you should make one, it literlayy goes threw every move he has and how u can react to it, which moves u should use to counter these moves and whatnot.



Ill copy and paste ASAP

EDIT: here, i hope it works, if it doesnt go on amrth boards and look at the stickied list of marth gudies and choose the one that says sumthin about beating MK


http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=203056


I liek what your doing, but try and really put your all into it, im not sayin i could do a better job, ur guide is already nice but there is so much more.

 

[Zhamy]

i dont understand ur guide, what thte heck is stage striking?

loooooooooooool

Cant u jsut say, ban these ones, and CP these ones, and u have the adv on these ones?

rofl

There is a perfect example of a really good guide to kill MK on the marth boards, use it as an example of how you should make one, it literlayy goes threw every move he has and how u can react to it, which moves u should use to counter these moves and whatnot.

Still not understanding the point of this thread.

I liek what your doing, but try and really put your all into it, im not sayin i could do a better job, ur guide is already nice but there is so much more.

lmao

 

[M@v]

M@V, why so drillious?

And those shines Q_Q Did you even read my anti-planking thread? This makes me sad...

I told you, I just didn't care at the end lol. Those were friendlies were having for ****z, he was going random for goodness sakes lol. He got sonic in the random before, and I 3 stocked him, he didnt take a percent off of me the 1st stock :D.

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

loooooooooooool



rofl



Still not understanding the point of this thread.



lmao

Lol Zhamy you are so mean! Help him instead of utterly owning him!

<3 Zhamy.

 

[KheldarVII]

Lol Zhamy you are so mean! Help him instead of utterly owning him!

<3 Zhamy.

Stop encouraging him.

 

[Zhamy]

Stop encouraging him.

Hey, you're no better. At least half of your posts are sarcastic comments that don't make sense.

On topic: Planking more or less rolls over Fox, so you're going to have to get creative to beat it out. Don't try shine spiking - it'll just get you killed. If there's a wall that you can Bair MK into, go for it, but any way you try is going to be heavy on risk.

 

[Toronto Joe]

let Mk take you to RC

 

[Toronto Joe]

fox boards need to hug it out

 

[RPK]

Hey, you're no better. At least half of your posts are sarcastic comments that don't make sense.

On topic: Planking more or less rolls over Fox, so you're going to have to get creative to beat it out. Don't try shine spiking - it'll just get you killed. If there's a wall that you can Bair MK into, go for it, but any way you try is going to be heavy on risk.

Japanese Ledge Grab Rule too good! If this is the case, and that rule is in effect, then the Fox just has to sit back and laser and not take the bait. The Meta Knight will have to keep track of his amount of grabs, and make sure he is below the limit, or else he is going to have to chase that Fox all over the place to make sure the fox doesnt run the time down. There will still be planking, but it will mean that the planker has to make sure that he kills his opponent because he wont be able to win this time by time out. This will apply to other characters too if this rule ever comes into play.

 

[718_ROOKI3]

Aerial Game: MK beats Fox in the air by alot. MK's aerial manuverability is crazy and shouldn't be challenged. Usually MK's dont use bair so you dont have to worry about that. Stay away from his fair, it starts up all the nonsense he has with his combos. Dair is some thing he will use to edge guard you with and it really ***** firefox so think before you recover. Uair is what it is, his fastest aerial which is used majority of the time and it combos into itself if you dont DI it correctly. If you decide to play the air too much and shine stall MK'swill just punish with Shuttle Loop and we all know how gay that move gets when it hits fox so stay away from getting gayed. Fox has some type of answer to MK's aerial game, fox has a sick aerial game too. The problem is getting to connect the moves. His uair can be used as a kill shot and is one of the best kill shot options against MK. Catching im with dair or fair is always great for racking up
major damage. Bair is also a great KO move but considering the fact MK is small it's not so easy to hit him with it.

Summary: Stay out the air for a long time, MK is just gay and can do whatever he wants. Read your opponent well and catch them with a fair here and a dair there. Don't spam an aerial, MK can punish you so hard for that. Read your opponent and sace extremely well and you'll be alright.

Laser Technique: SHDL MK's who abuse there jumps
Laser Technique: Standing Laser MK's who won't leave the ground

Green = Great CP
Yellow = Fairly Good CP
Red = Bad/Wrong CP


Stage Striking: Lylat, Smashville

Stage Banning: Rainbow, Delfino

Stage CP'ing: Final D., Yoshi's, PS 1

Frame Data:

These are the moves I feel we need to know by frame data, so we know what to stay away from and what we can challenge

Meta-Knight!!! aka Get-A-Life!!!

Nair Frame 3
Uair Frame 2
Dair Frame 4
Fair (1st hit)Frame 6 (2nd hit)Frame 10 (3rd hit)Frame 13

Fsmash Frame 24
Dsmash Frame 5

Dtilt Frame 3
Ftilt (1st hit)Frame 3 (2nd hit)Frame 12 (3rd hit)Frame 21

Aerial Up-B Frame 8
Grounded Up-B Frame 8 (Invincibility frames 5-8)
Neu. B Frame 12
For. B Frame ???

Glide Attack Frame 5

Video:
718R00kie(Fox) vs. MK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6kQ1nXtNXQ&feature=PlayList&p=7A6B3F22DD26B93F&index=2&fmt=18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7e8ZjmtFA0&feature=PlayList&p=7A6B3F22DD26B93F&index=1&fmt=18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2LeUsJTqL8&feature=PlayList&p=7A6B3F22DD26B93F&index=0&fmt=18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43WlRri0mC4&feature=PlayList&p=7A6B3F22DD26B93F&index=3&fmt=18

 

[718_ROOKI3]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7e8ZjmtFA0

OK guys so this is it.
R00kie vs. D1 About 2 days. We had this match-up about 6 or 7 times(in sets) and i didnt lose one set. Yes D1 plays MK and it's very very very good. The purpose of this vid is to learn how to fight MK. This is the way I do it, and believe this is the only way it can get done to fight any MK.

I aint going to take any advice from anyone, this has been my whole strategy against MKs and it hasn't failed me yet... I hope you guys agree with me on how i carry myself fighting MKs.

Note: I believe that any MK can be beaten. The flaw to MK is that it doesnt matter who plays MK, im convinced that this strat. can work on any MK. (Yes, M2K,Dojo,Inui,Shadow,Dave,DSF, whomever you feel like naming) i believe it WILL work. It doesnt matter how much you win by against MK. When it comes to MK, just fight for the "W"

SO XIIVI PLEASE PUT UP THE VID. THE SAME WAY YOU DID FOR THE PIKACHU THREAD. THX

 

[Zhamy]

Just some things I noticed from watching Rookie's video:

1) Lasers are useful - MK is light; every little percent counts. Sure, he can run by them, if you're smart with your lasering, you can punish him for trying to approach directly.

2) Camping MK is semi-possible. The key is to be patient, especially in terms of punishing. Don't get anxious and try to tack on more damage with followups if you're not sure they'll hit. In other words, don't try to combo MK - camp, bait, and punish.

3) Throws are good. Use them more, but don't try to follow up on them. Dthrow seems especially useful to put space between the two of you, and if MK has to approach again, that means a little more damage you can put on.

4) Rookie's DI is too good. Momentum cancelling is essential (as always), and Uair is probably your best bet. You need to live a very long time in this matchup, and correct DI will prevent gimping - MK has trouble killing off the top, so as long as you avoid Shuttle Loop and gimps, it's a relatively safe zone to come back from. If you can help it, don't recover from below the stage, as that's just asking to get gimped. No matter how top tier MK may be, he can't cover both the stage and the ledge at the same time.

5) Mach Tornado **** can be avoided with good DI and airdodging. Instead of taking 17%, you'll maybe take 8% and be in a relatively good position to either reset or punish. If you shield it, even better - since Fox is fast enough to run in for a punish.

6) If MK is approaching from the air, tack on as much damage as you can and either scare him away with some SH aerials or whatnot, or just run away, reset positioning, and start lasering again. SH Fair is relatively safe, since you can duck back into shield quite quickly.

7) Platforms help you rather than hurt you. It puts more "distance" between you and MK and gives you more options for running away.

8) Usmash. Use it.

It's almost 4 in the morning, so sorry if my analysis is a bit off.

 

[718_ROOKI3]

Yea, its a bit off, NO JOHNS... lmao... JKJK...

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

Yeah Rook you gonna be on AIM tonight? Or do you have a vent, team speak, or skype channel? I still need some help with DI =3!

BY the way, it is quite refreshing seeing you post on the forums A LOT more Rook! Keep it up man!

 

[718_ROOKI3]

Yeah Rook you gonna be on AIM tonight? Or do you have a vent, team speak, or skype channel? I still need some help with DI =3!

BY the way, it is quite refreshing seeing you post on the forums A LOT more Rook! Keep it up man!

Im always on aim bro, so i will DEFINITLY help you with whatever you need... and yes i have become more attached to the fox boards and feel great everytime i contribute something that you guys appreciate... thanks man

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

Im always on aim bro, so i will DEFINITLY help you with whatever you need... and yes i have become more attached to the fox boards and feel great everytime i contribute something that you guys appreciate... thanks man

No joke man. I was the same. Before I started to run the video/archives/tourney/directory threads I just spent all my time lurking with no home. Then I started to do more stuff and it felt amazing!

Rook you are the man! I will talk to you later tonight.

EDIT: Dude I just went to your myspace and saw your haircut! Good ****! It looks tight.

 

[718_ROOKI3]

No joke man. I was the same. Before I started to run the video/archives/tourney/directory threads I just spent all my time lurking with no home. Then I started to do more stuff and it felt amazing!

Rook you are the man! I will talk to you later tonight.

EDIT: Dude I just went to your myspace and saw your haircut! Good ****! It looks tight.

hahahhaah no doubt, good looking out on the hair cut..hahahaha

 

[Jeet Kune Do]

Sorry if this is a dumb question... is there anything Fox can do to MK out of grab release?

 

[Exceladon City]

Sorry if this is a dumb question... is there anything Fox can do to MK out of grab release?

Nope. MK can do a standing neutral attack to stop whatever grab release attempt you go for. Fox's grab range is sadly, not amazing so grab releases aren't all that helpful unless your opponent doesn't slide back too far after a release or they are like Bowser's size.

 

[718_ROOKI3]

Sorry if this is a dumb question... is there anything Fox can do to MK out of grab release?

Nope. MK can do a standing neutral attack to stop whatever grab release attempt you go for. Fox's grab range is sadly, not amazing so grab releases aren't all that helpful unless your opponent doesn't slide back too far after a release or they are like Bowser's size.

Grab Release on MK is possible

Its very situational. It will only work if you just so happen to grab him at the edge of the stage. Out of that you have these options:

1. Dsmash
2. AAA
3. Utilt
4. Re-grab

A regular grab release causes MK to slide too far for you to capitalize... remember that...

 

[Xiivi]

Hey guys, I'm going to be wanting to get a big update on this done. I'm waiting for lots of opinions from lots of players so I'm not just taking one person's. I'll wait until Sunday for everyone to post.

 

[Exceladon City]

Grab Release on MK is possible

Its very situational. It will only work if you just so happen to grab him at the edge of the stage. Out of that you have these options:

1. Dsmash
2. AAA
3. Utilt
4. Re-grab

A regular grab release causes MK to slide too far for you to capitalize... remember that...

I'll keep that in mind next time I grab an MK by the edge.

 

[718_ROOKI3]

I'll keep that in mind next time I grab an MK by the edge.

yea man its pretty sweet. just very situational

 

[Exceladon City]

yea man its pretty sweet. just very situational

Yo hit me up on aim so we can talk smash and you can roflstomp my fox online. My oreoversion1 is my SN.

 

[718_ROOKI3]

Yo hit me up on aim so we can talk smash and you can roflstomp my fox online. My oreoversion1 is my SN.

No doubt man, i got you on aim so hit me up whenever you wanna talk

 

[JigglyZelda003]

for cp stages no one mentioned green greens, has anyone fought a MK there and knows if its good or not?

sure its not always legal, but if it is...

 

[718_ROOKI3]

for cp stages no one mentioned green greens, has anyone fought a MK there and knows if its good or not?

sure its not always legal, but if it is...

If it is legal and fox fights MK there his chances of winning should be good. Camping should be easier and killing is definitly easier. I wouldn't mind fighting MK there, I'll be confident to CP him there.

 

[KheldarVII]

Either character's D-smash at the edge above 50% and you got a good chance of dying. And since MK's D-smash rules I wouldn't chance it. Or shuttle loop, actually.

 

[RPK]

You have better chances playing on Halberd then on Green Greens =\

 

[718_ROOKI3]

You have better chances playing on Halberd then on Green Greens =\

idk, MK on halberd is hell for fox. why give MK a stage he can attack through and give him more a reason to put his 5 jumps to better use. PLANKING for MK on this stage is an auto win.

Halberd and Greens greens are even in what can happen...

Green greens: MK can kill you early(short death lines)
Halberd: MK cant kill you early but can plank like no tomorrow...

 

[RPK]

In addition the blastlines are also really close. And by that I mean the ceiling.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

id rather chance dying earlier on both ends than suffer endless planking....

 

[Toronto Joe]

i definitely would not try Mk on Green Greens, fox needs all the room he can get vs him,also MK can plank on that stage pretty easily, just stay far left/right and move around through the platforms, MK can pretty much plank anywhere with a ledge -_____-

what about Castle Seige? i like that stage also until i get caught underneath the 1st part of the level(that edge is simply stupid)
Norfair is pretty good vs MK if your experienced enough on the stage

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

Personally I like Castle Siege. However, I don't like the second part because it hinders lasers so I just wait for the level to change again. Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7ef6YpBjEw&feature=channel_page

 

[718_ROOKI3]

Personally I like Castle Siege. However, I don't like the second part because it hinders lasers so I just wait for the level to change again. Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7ef6YpBjEw&feature=channel_page

yea well i make the best of it and deliberatly shoot the statues so i replenish my entire move set so when i hit MK i hit him hard...

 

[Toronto Joe]

Personally I like Castle Siege. However, I don't like the second part because it hinders lasers so I just wait for the level to change again. Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7ef6YpBjEw&feature=channel_page

LOL that ****ing edge!