Match-Up Discussion #24! Sonic

[_Kadaj_]

Lol learn something new every day ^

 

[Psychic Blade of Justice!]

I think that it is around 7 : 3 in Marth's favor, because I vs a very good Sonic and usually he has trouble beating me due to Marth's air game and his sword.

 

[Onomanic]

I disagree with you. It's more or less 6:4, depending on the player. And I'm totally not referring to Ant. No way. But maybe 6.5:4.5 Yeah, that sounds good.

 

[Sailboat]

I understand how that in theory, a sonic vs marth fight should be in the marths favor, but there's actually no character that I have more trouble against. I don't have any real secondary, my main is marth; going against a sonic is just about the most difficult match up i've ever had. It's probably just because I'm not as good (skill wise) as the sonic that I'm always up against.. but I just get the feeling that people don't give sonic enough credit. How is he that low on the tier list? Again, this is probably due to my skill level rather than actual character capability. I don't do nearly enough fair, I usually stick with a lot of nair. I'll keep your tips in mind though, I can already tell that they'll be a help.

 

[Sailboat]

I was looking in the MM challenge videos at the top of this forum, and I noticed that there aren't any of them that feature a Sonic. Is this because at that level there are no Sonic's that can compete against Marth? I've watched some of the mid-level player video's against Sonic's and they don't seem to do as well as the tier list would suggest, albeit they might not be at the same skill level. This isn't really the video request thread or anything, but are there any video's on this website that feature both high end level Marth's and Sonic's against each other? (if this is an inappropriate thread to ask in please PM me and I'll remove the post)

 

[da K.I.D.]

sonic should be able to punish fairs, with fairs of his own.

im thinking this matchup is closer to 50-50 than most give it credit for.

sonic matchups as a whole are a lot like marth except like 2 steps below.
marth goes 60-40 with the majority of teh cast, sonic goes like 40-60 with the majority of the cast.
marth has a lot of 50-50s, sonic has more 50-50s than you would think. marth only really ***** like 2-3 characters. sonic only gets ***** by 2-3 characters. marth only loses to like 2-3 characters. sonic only seriously has an advantage on 2-3 characters.

 

[VietGeek]

Excellent Marths are difficult to find.

Excellent Sonic are even harder to find.

To pit them against each other is a rare occurrence indeed.

And Sonic is climbing that tearz list. Everyone else is too slow to catch up to him.

sonic should be able to punish fairs, with fairs of his own.

im thinking this matchup is closer to 50-50 than most give it credit for.

sonic matchups as a whole are a lot like marth except like 2 steps below.
marth goes 60-40 with the majority of teh cast, sonic goes like 40-60 with the majority of the cast.
marth has a lot of 50-50s, sonic has more 50-50s than you would think. marth only really ***** like 2-3 characters. sonic only gets ***** by 2-3 characters. marth only loses to like 2-3 characters. sonic only seriously has an advantage on 2-3 characters.

Are you saying because Sonic has similar match-ups is why the match is closer to even?

Well, you could say this about Toon Link as well. Simply replace 'sonic' with Toon Link. But Marth vs. TL is obviously a losing match to TL. Also comparing match-up ratios is rather pointless since the numbers mean very little compared to the substance that created those ratios.

 

[Kinzer]

Are you insane, we only jumped up 2 spaces, characters like lOlimar and Peach are moving up faster than we can get into the rightful place we belong on that silly thing.

Anyway I have never in my Brawl career ever come close to fighting a good Marth... at all... like seriously... it's all theorycraft we're going on here.

 

[da K.I.D.]

my comment on combined matchups really didnt have anything to do with the matchup between sonic and marth. sorry bout the off topic ness.

i think sonic/marth is 40-60 marths favor, its not that bad, as long as sonic plays the match the right way.

 

[feardragon64]

Are you insane, we only jumped up 2 spaces, characters like lOlimar and Peach are moving up faster than we can get into the rightful place we belong on that silly thing.

Anyway I have never in my Brawl career ever come close to fighting a good Marth... at all... like seriously... it's all theorycraft we're going on here.

We're mostly in California and New Jersey imo. Then there's a few of us scattered randomly in other states(by us I don't me myself included lol).

And then there's Shaya....

 

[Sailboat]

I think once I get the hang of playing in this different way, I'll be able to dominate my Sonic friend. I've been watching Ken for ages, and now I watch Neo in Brawl and I can see that I'm not near as good as he is - obviously. I think in the small group I play in (about 5-6 friends) I only come up against Samus, Snake, Sonic, MK, Wolf, and Sheik. When I push myself I can usually win most of those matches, but my win ration against this Sonic is about 1-10.

I can see one of my biggest problems already from watching Neo's video's are that I don't fair quick enough, and close enough to the ground. I think most of my losses however, are purely from my ignorance on what exactly I should do in any given moment. For example, this Sonic that I play with does a lot of spinning across the stage and then getting my into a combo that I have a frustratingly low chance of getting out of.

I've just lately been fighting against a Samus that is probably better than me, and he usually tries to M smash me down into the abyss. Through all of this punishment I've acquired not only a greater game on the ledges, but I've become much better at dair-ing people down. I think this ledge/dair experience will really help me in my fights against this Sonic.

I also see that I'm not doing enough of that beautiful B combo. If I use this in combination with practicing my ledge game to perfection, I'm pretty sure I'll win every time. I'll try to post some video's on us for you guys to critique in a week or so.

 

[da K.I.D.]

thats what makes the match in marths favor.

sonic rolls, side b
sonic spotdodges, side b
sonic rolls at you and you have enough time to react, side b.

dancing blade is 22222 much ****

 

[Browny]

Haha poor Shaya

theres a few other good Marths in Australia, they just dont visit these forums. Smoking-puppy from QLD is really freakin good (Id say just as good as Shaya) and 2SXC and Hybrid are repping Marth in SA tourneys. Shaya's not alone

btw kid side-b at close range beats dancing blade lol

 

[da K.I.D.]

true, but you have to admit, that move is rediculously good and it beats sonic alot.

 

[Shaya]

Haha poor Shaya

theres a few other good Marths in Australia, they just dont visit these forums. Smoking-puppy from QLD is really freakin good (Id say just as good as Shaya) and 2SXC and Hybrid are repping Marth in SA tourneys. Shaya's not alone

btw kid side-b at close range beats dancing blade lol

Good Marths shouldn't be losing to Sonic that easilyyyyyyyyyy *RAGE*.

 

[Browny]

My sonic doesnt beat S-pup (or pretty much anything for that matter lol), and Hybrid uses falco more than marth. I just pick snake anyway right from the start vs the two in SA lol. mmm ftilt. omnomnom

 

[Sailboat]

Okay, so I didn't get a video, but oh man it was a completely different fight this time. We only did about 15 games this time round because I had to go, but I won 10 of those. This is apposed to my usual record of 1-10 lol. The main thing that got me the victory in these fights was indeed the fair punishment, and the dancing blade. I kept smashing his face back with that every time he did his stupid spin/beat-down Marth idea. I've gone from feeling completely helpless against him to being toe to toe.

For some reason - probably due to vast amounts of adrenaline pumping into my brain - I have a lot of trouble now completing the dancing blade. Our fights are so close now that even a slight mistake seems to cost me a whole stock. But with that being said, this is a sizable improvement for me. With more practice I know I'll be able to best him every time.
Watching him also seems to help me a lot, I really need to master the pivot grab. The one where he's like coming back onto the stage and he rolls, and I turn and grab him. I seem to have some trouble with this.

Special thanks to you guys like steel and others who have posted your experience in these forums, because it really helped me out. Again, I'll try to get a video but I keep forgetting my camera and they haven't got one.

 

[Sailboat]

Okay so just last night I went up against that Sonic, and I did horrible. I'm not sure what it is, but it seems that at times I can completely crush his dreams of ever taking any of my stock, and then there are the times where I should just unplug my controller.

We must have had like 70-75 games, and for about the first 5 I nearly 3 stocked him (we generally only use 3 stock now), which is like finding gold in your backyard; it just isn't done with my group of friends. If we end up beating him it's always JUST BARELY.

I don't want to cut him down and say he doesn't have any skill, he's a better player than I am. Maybe it's more my lack of skill than it is his skill, I'm not entirely sure.
I'll definitely get some of our matches on film tonight so you guys can analyze just wtf is going on here. I dread at the idea of having to wait half an hour just to get it posted on youtube. I can't believe there isn't a Sonic video thread in the Sonic forums. (perhaps there is, but I wasn't able to find it)

 

[Sailboat]

I'll explain how on of our typical matches goes down; this will probably shed some light on what exactly I'm doing wrong. --->

START OF FIGHT ~ 0-50%

explanation:
So it starts out with him in the spin ball on the other side of the stage (picture FD for the stage). He's started to get smart because now he knows that my reaction time is a lot faster now and if he just straight speeds across the stage to smash me than I just press A and I can actually stop him dead now, and do something nasty. These days he usually starts spinning with the other spin, I'm not sure what it's called. He gets about halfway and then stops, and starts bouncing up in the air (inside the spin ball still), and he usually just fakes me out that way and gets an opening... and sets up shop on my face.

my usual course of action:
This part is completely crucial in our fights - or at least I believe it to be, - because I usually start off on this badly and can't do anything effective until about 40%. If I could solve this issue of me approaching, I think my win ratio would go up about 50%, because therein lies my problem: I'm not entirely sure how to approach something that can move round the stage at mach speed. So I usually either jump/dodge, and then somehow I end up in the air a few feet, where I feel completely hopeless. If however, I get the first attack, I grab him, throw him forward, and repeat that about 4-5 times until his on the edge of the stage, and then I throw him forward again and SH fair. This gets him up to about 45% or so.

MIDDLE OF FIGHT ~ 50-90%

explanation:
This is usually the part of the fight that I perform best in. Statistically, out of everyone that I play against, I survive the longest percentage wise. I know this because we use names in our fights, and then when we go back and look at the stats, it says mine in stays alive longest at percentage or whatever. This is probably due to the fact that most of the time I play against a skilled Samus, and there's nothing like the fear of getting missiles, bombs, annoying electrical grab thing, and large balls of energy shot at you to improve your dodging skills.

my usual course of action:

Normally when I have this kind of percentage I like to get Sonic into the air as much as possible. Dancing blade upwards, up throw, uair; I do whatever it takes to get him into the air because this not only stalls time for me, but Sonic isn't so hot when I'm on the ground and he's above me. The Sonic player I'm talking about usually try's to get me into the air also, so in this part of the fight it's clutch time, and again, the higher my percentage the better I do - usually. I've innovated another player's technique here. I've read some of the Marth guides and on one of them it says to do the first dancing blade slash, and then stop and grab them. What I do is do the first DB slash and quickly press B. This only works half of the time, however.

Although this is the time that I do best in, it's also the only real chance that I have to win against him, because normally if I don't out last time and kill him first, there's no way that I can come back.

END OF FIGHT ~ 90-DEATH

explanation:

However skilled I believe myself to be at staying alive, I'm the opposite in staying in the ring, at least with Sonic at the edge of it. When I get knocked off I usually never die until I'm at 170% or so. This is a time I do terrible at because once I get knocked off of the ledge once, it's usually just me getting kicked back off of the ledge over and over until I die. Even if I should find myself back onto the stage safely, a couple seconds longer and I'm off in the air again. I've read the guide that explains how Marth players can more readily understand how to improve their edge game. This however, only helps me when I'm on the offensive.

my usual course of action:

At this percentage, as stated above, I'm usually trying to run for my life. Although I'm at 90 or so %, a lot of the time Sonic isn't too far behind - 65-80%. I'm not sure what to do here really, except for try to get him off of the stage to buy time, and possibly to keep him off with bfairs and fairs. This mostly doesn't work because Sonic is usually so high in the air that I can't possible hit him until he reaches the ground. Before you know it he ends up getting me off of the stage and there you go. His back kick seems to be so overpowered that I sometimes wonder again, how he is so low on the tier list. That kick is this vague extension of his leg that seems to have priority on whatever I try to do. Even air dodging seems to be incapable of helping me to survive it.

This is just a side not, it might not mean anything really. Normally when my friends and I fight, it's on FD. I'm not sure when this trend set in, but it was probably back in melee. I'm not sure who has the advantage here, me or Sonic, but I do know that I feel my performance is a little better on Yoshi's place or.. Battlefield.

I hope this will be enough information. I'll try to get a video up late tonight, but if not then probably tomorrow. Again, I think most of my loses are due to his playing style rather than his skill... if those things are even considered mutually exclusive.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Keep in mind that when you have two people that train together and play often, you are able to read each other like a book.

You may 3 stock him and then he could turn around and do the same.

 

[Sailboat]

You're right. Out of all of my friends that I frequently play against, my Samus friend is the one I play against the most. When ever he has his ball charged up he never hits me with it. I don't think he's actually landed that on me in like a year. We've been playing together for about 5. It seems however, that when I fight this Sonic (who I also play against frequently), I have a greater difficulty getting used to his play style. I think this is because I'm on the run so often with Marth. I really need to work on my approach and work on a more defensive style.

 

[Pierce7d]

Just attack Sonic. His defensive options are garbage. His offensive options are fast, can be hard to punish, and have loads of mindgames. He loses all of this when he's on defense.

 

[Nightshine]

Get in the habbit of grabbing him out of his down B and side B if they do it. Since hitting him while he does this cancels grabbng works for a few more %.

 

[Sailboat]

Okay so I'll try to post a video later where we're both better warmed up. Sorry for the loud DMX in the background, it's the only way I can get in my groove. He's so angry I can't help but lay the law down.

I hope I arranged all of this correctly, I didn't want to break any forum rules. Tomorrow I'll post a few more, I didn't really have that much time today for smash. It should be noted that the Sonic I'm playing against isn't the player "Louie", it's just that the Sonic forgot to change the name. I'll get video's tomorrow where he's properly warmed up, this was match... 5 or so.


Anyways, for your pleasure: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=6541950#post6541950