Match-Up Discussion #24! Sonic

[VietGeek]

I must say, wow, this is the first MU Analysis where the opposing side came in and almost totally agreed with us XD

So like I heard we had a Toon Link match-up discussion. Is that...like...true? <_<

/random

 

[Punishment Divine]

So like I heard we had a Toon Link match-up discussion. Is that...like...true? <_<

/random

I must have missed that one o.o

 

[da K.I.D.]

its really pretty stupid playing sonic, cause his crap gets tore up by so many different characters' standing jabs

 

[_Kadaj_]

Lol but you main him

 

[Kinzer]

This thread needs more Steak.

But seriously, anything helpful has already been said.

 

[_Kadaj_]

Just about I guess

 

[Kinzer]

Oh! Here's something interesting, Sonic players can also try and use you as a guidepoint for a Homing Attack recovery, if you can see this coming you can spotdodge at the right time and HA will lose focus on you and only make Sonic go lower, either making Sonic resort to a spring recovery, or kill him (You could use HA to hit the stage and bounce back up but I think this is considered stalling and is banned or something? Either way take this into mind as any resourceful Sonic might resort to this if necessary) Either that or if you feel like you can charge an F/Usmash to knock Sonic away for this method of recovery.

Steak.

 

[_Kadaj_]

Steak? Are you calling it steak to refer to its juicyness?

 

[Kinzer]

No it's just some ongoing joke we have thriving at the Sonic boards.

 

[_Kadaj_]

O

What's the joke?

 

[toon_marth]

sonic, marth, spam, tactics.... im gonna be sick >_>

 

[_Kadaj_]

*waits to hear joke*

 

[Kinzer]

Alright, give me a minute, it's been mentioned already and I'll copy and paste it, come back to see this post edited.

Quote: KASR, bless his soul, instead of saying I'm gonna go on a "Winning Streak", he said he was gonna go on a Winning Steak, or something along those lines. Thus the steak. I then suggested in some thread that Sonic is Steak Tier, after which djbrowny said that sonics who frequent other boards should refer to Sonic as being Steak Tier with no explanation as to why. Its all quite fun when its not overused in a serious thread. Except for Umby, he hates the whole trend, cuz, it is kind of stupid XD.

KASR, from I know, was a former Sonic player, and from what the others are telling me, he never really was good at typing (neither am I). When he tried to say "Winning Streak", he just simple instead made a typo and left the letter R out.

From there on out, we've all been just making fun of that typo and worshipping the Steak.

We're crazy people, if you ever try to deliberately read the Sonic boards without true dedication to the Blue Blur, you will go insane. It's proably the stench of the raw meat that makes our boards unique this way.

 

[_Kadaj_]

Lol pretty funny joke

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I lol'ed... I have no idea about this matchup, so I will stay out of it in order to not make a fool of myself.

 

[_Kadaj_]

Me either solid I only know but so much about this lol

 

[Steel]

So 65:35 or 70:30?

 

[chaos_]

marth can camp on sonic and stop all his approach

 

[Kinzer]

marth can camp on sonic and stop all his approach

Don't be too sure on that part, how do you know Sonic won't just jump up into the air and come down like a meteor with Dair? We have so many ways to get around it's not funny...ah screw it, it IS funny, as long as you have Steak on the side.

I would say 65:35 is fair, seeing as how mindgames don't apply in matchups.

 

[Pierce7d]

Eh, but mix-ups and conditioning do apply to a certain extent, at least as far as character usefulness go.

I'd call it 65-35, because Sonic really can penetrate Marth's zoning.

 

[Kinzer]

So it's safe to assume that with Sonic Marth has the advantage but he will have to work for it and study the opponent, otherwise he might not end up too well...

 

[ZHMT]

I was too late to contribute but I read through. I agree with 65:35 Marth as well.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I have a question. How much shield stun does Marth's tipped f-tilt have? And how much total lag does it have?

I ask this it because it might well be possible for Sonic to dash attack Marth after shielding an F-tilt. As far as I know Marth's f-tilt is only safe on block when spaced because he is too far away for most quick options, but outspeeds longer ranged ones. Well, Sonic's dash attack happens to be extremely fast as well as long ranged so, I thought it might be possible to hit with it (unless the additional shieldstun from a tipped f-tilt is enough to prevent this).

 

[Steel]

Why? Ftilt isn't his poke move, he probably won't use it that much unless you start approaching from the air. Dtilt is where it's at.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^True, I just don't like the whole "a spaced f-tilt is safe on block" statement. I'd personally like to know if I could just get a free dash attack every single time I blocked an f-tilt.

And if you miss a d-tilt I get an f-tilt (they have the same range and f-tilt is fast enough to get him before his IASA frames), or dash attack. But yeah, it's still an amazing poke anyway (if your spacing isn't terrible).

 

[Steel]

it might not be completely safe no, depends on the character

 

[Nibbity]

I don't think I would use it even if he did start approaching the air. But anywho, I could only really imagine you to be able to hit if you were closer than tipper range or perfect shielded or something. I just can't imagine pulling that off.

 

[Pierce7d]

Precisely, and dtilt has IASA frame 21 or so. It's that'll be that which we use to poke. Ftilt is to muff approaches, but not for Sonic, lol.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I don't think I would use it even if he did start approaching the air. But anywho, I could only really imagine you to be able to hit if you were closer than tipper range or perfect shielded or something. I just can't imagine pulling that off.

It's Sonic. Distance is not an issue (covers 1/8th of FD in the time it takes you to actually do said f-tilt) I was just curious as to exactly how much shieldstun the f-tilt has.
But now that I think about it without AR it would probably take hours to get that kind of frame data for all of Marth's moves (in addition to the data you already have), so never mind. It's just the difference between a guranteed dash attack and a guaranteed grab.

But Marth won't be using it much anyway, it was just my curiosity.

Precisely, and dtilt has IASA frame 21 or so. It's that'll be that which we use to poke. Ftilt is to muff approaches, but not for Sonic, lol.

True, but that wasn't my point.

I've already agreed that the matchup is 65:35 Marth's favor. I'm just looking around for little things that I might want to experiment with. For instance

How many frames of shield stun does that d-tilt have. I ask this because it litterally only takes Sonic 4 or 5 frames to cover that distance by just running (his dash attack covers the distance just as fast).

Also, how many frames does it take to drop a shield in brawl (just a general question that I don't know the exact answer to)

No Sonics really use the dash attack (because of how punishable it is at lower percentages, even if you hit with it), so I was just looking into some potential uses, like possibly punishing that d-tilt since I'm not close enough to go for a shield grab.

 

[Pierce7d]

I'm moderately sure you can punish it. I'm definitely sure you can if you PS.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Given the d-tilt's hitbox comes out on frame 7 and has IASA frames on frame 21, there is a 14 frame gap. Sonic's dash attack hitbox comes out in 4 frames, and it takes him 4 or 5 frames to reach Marth, for a total of 9 frames.

Well, I'd guess that the shield stun of Marth's d-tilt+shield drop time is more than 5 frames, so no dash attack punishment for me

Maybe if I powershield the d-tilt I have enough time to do the dash attack. Not something that would really affect the matchup much, but it could be useful for getting around d-tilt walls.

 

[Punishment Divine]

lol didn't we have a similar argument in another thread where it just ended in EL going "Why the **** am I arguing this, dtilt is the main poke tool anyways!"? XD

I agree with Pierce, though. If you manage to shield/avoid the ftilt you could probably punish, and if you PS you definitely could

 

[Emblem Lord]

In terms of frame advantage you have when Marth hits your shield with d-tilt, you have 7 frames.

You have to take into account shield stun, the IASA frames, and attack stun from actually hitting a shield.

So after all that Marth's opponent is left with 7 frames to do something if Marth d-tilts their shield. But I think it takes about 2 or 3 frames to drop a shield and it takes maybe 4 frames to jump from a shield. Then add on the frames it would take you to attack after a JC or a shield drop and you realize that attacking Marth after he pokes your shield with a d-tilt will just get you messed up.

You are better off rolling away.

You can punish a blocked f-tilt with a dash attack.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^I have 7 frames to do something? Well, I could technically I could drop my shield and dash attack in 7 frames (dash attack hitbox comes out in 4 frames), but it would take 3 or 4 frames to actually reach you so...I'd just eat DS. Oh well, so much for that idea.

I'm guessing the fair is even safer on block (more shieldstun)?

 

[Pierce7d]

That, and you probably wouldn't be able to react frame perfectly.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You also need to take into account shield push back. So that increases the distance you have to cover. Might not be much for Sonic, but anything that adds an extra frame isn't good for you when you want to punish.

 

[Dark Sonic]

That, and you probably wouldn't be able to react frame perfectly.

Well, I could buffer the shield drop, and then try to time the dash attack (tap foward and c-stick down).

But anyway, how much shield stun does a tipped fair have? And would you say the distance between him and his opponent after landing from a retreating fair is just a little over 1/4th of FD (assuming he was retreating on the second fair of a SHDF)? And how much landing lag does it have?

I know I'm asking a lot of questions, but it's just stuff I really want to know so I can fully take advantage of Sonic's amazing speed. (Zomg 1/4th of FD in 15 frames!)

edit concerning Emblem Lord's statement: I can't believe I had forgotten about that. Well, I guess I really am better off just rolling away (or better yet, running away)

 

[Emblem Lord]

ROFL.

Anyway, tipper and non-tipper does not effect shield stun. It only effects shield push back.

You aren't going to be punishing SHFF fair. Recovery is too quick.

If he did a SHDF then yeah I imagine you would be able to punish if he DIed back after the swipe hit your shield. You could shield drop then dash attack after the second swing is over. You would need to be quick with it though.

 

[bludhoundz]

It's hard to punish a fair from the block, because Marth can simply throw out another fair if you try to go after him while he's retreating. A smart player will not throw both fairs at your shield (unsafe), they will only use one and then retreat. SH double fair isn't used that often, and if it is it will be when the first one connects.

Edit: EL beat me to it.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Yeah I know, but I'm experimenting with baiting Marth's most common moves so I can punish them (not a matchup thing, but a player thing). So If I were to say... shield a fair, dash foward and shield the second fair (as he'd more likely throw one out to stop my approach), I'd get a free dash attack (or a grab if he's not buffering a roll or spotdodge).

Anyway, tipper and non-tipper does not effect shield stun. It only effects shield push back.

I did not know that. Cool.