Match-Up Discussion #24! Sonic

[Steel]

Sonic

Go ^_^

 

[Umby]

Not as easy as Marths like to think, but it's a 65:35 or 70:30 on paper. For the most part you can pretty much zone out Sonic's approach, but his ground mobility and Spin Dash properties will allow him to regularly get through.

I highly recommend mixing in Fair -> Shield Breaker in this match up. A lot of Sonics like to shield dash a lot to bait reactions from you and punish accordingly. In this case, Sonic might expect a double fair, but gets a shield breaker instead.

Keep your eye on Sonic's specials. His Side B and Down B look different during their charge. The importance of knowing the difference is that Sonic can cancel out the charge on his Side B to take you out - another bait -> punish tactic. This alone effectively shuts down Counter.

Also watch out for ASC (Aerial Spin Charge). That's his Down B in the air. It's one of Sonic's better aerial approaches and can be shield canceled upon reaching the ground, easily leading to a shield grab if you were simply trying to shield the attack.

So basically, the common decent Sonic relies on fake out maneuvers vs Marth to bait and punish his attacks. However, Marth can zone out his approach with spaced fairs. It's also safe to say that fair/nair spam followed by dtilt and stop Sonic in his tracks if he tries to chase you once you've landed.

 

[grandmaster192]

This 7:3 or higher in Marth favor.

Honestly, Marth's jab can out prioritize pretty much all of Sonic's move. All Marth needs to do is hide behind his sword. All of Marth's attacks shut Sonic down easily.

 

[Napilopez]

Post edited for some stuffies.

Not as easy as Marths like to think, but it's a 65:35 or 70:30 on paper. For the most part you can pretty much zone out Sonic's approach, but his ground mobility and Spin Dash properties will allow him to regularly get through.

I highly recommend mixing in Fair -> Shield Breaker in this match up. A lot of Sonics like to shield dash a lot to bait reactions from you and punish accordingly. In this case, Sonic might expect a double fair, but gets a shield breaker instead.

Keep your eye on Sonic's specials. His Side B and Down B look different during their charge. The importance of knowing the difference is that Sonic can cancel out the charge on his Side B to take you out - another bait -> punish tactic. This alone effectively shuts down Counter.

Also watch out for ASC (Aerial Spin Charge). That's his Down B in the air. It's one of Sonic's better aerial approaches and can be shield canceled upon reaching the ground, easily leading to a shield grab if you were simply trying to shield the attack.

So basically, the common decent Sonic relies on fake out maneuvers vs Marth to bait and punish his attacks. However, Marth can zone out his approach with spaced fairs. It's also safe to say that fair/nair spam followed by dtilt and stop Sonic in his tracks if he tries to chase you once you've landed.

Before anyone starts to flame, I main Sonic, but marth is one of my most decent other chars(I don't have a true secondary), so I at least know something about marth.

Umby pretty much summarized the matchup. The following is just information on how to deal with a decent sonic.

This should be pretty obvious, but if you are playing a Sonic who likes to spring gimp, and early upB would come in handy(dont want to be stage spiked or caught with bad timing and being gimped by FD lol).

Like Umby said, fakeout maneuvers are a huge factor for a decent Sonic facing marth, or well any character. You need to be one step ahead. If you are playing a decent sonic, you can sometimes assume he/she will cancel the ASC into a shield if they are unlikely to make contact, so punish accordingly. Shield breaker is indeed very useful here. Sonics will use their shield in general probably moreso than any other character. We shield cancel dashes, SideBs and ASCs all the time.

Landing a tipper against a Sonic that is constantly on the run can be difficult, but not impossible. You will find their playstyles can vary immensely, however most decent sonics make use of their tools in some for or another, so know them, and punish them.

It could be usefult to know the properties of his dair. From about a full height and above gained from a grounded spring, Or a short hop and aerial spring, Sonics Dair will auto cancel. From this you will typically see either a shield or a grab(holding shield to buffer the shield as they land), so be aware of that. If a Sonic uses dair from a lower height however, such as from a spring before it reaches its full height, sonic will have ending lag which you can punish with a tipped fsmash or whatevers.

Sonic's SideB, UpB, and Usmash all have invincibility frames on their initial frames. SideB right after release, UpB for about a full hops height after release, and Usmash for a very small number of frames during the hop animation. Depending on the Sonic, you may see this put to use or not.

Don't counter too much. Sonic can obviously cover a lot of distance in a short amount of time, so if you whiff it, you while either be grabbed or homing attacked.

But yea, You guys still definately have the advantage, just please don't underestimate a good Sonic. You will get punished.

Aerials are your best friend here, i think a good Sonic can punish your ground game pretty well.

EDIT:

This 7:3 or higher in Marth favor.

Honestly, Marth's jab can out prioritize pretty much all of Sonic's move. All Marth needs to do is hide behind his sword. All of Marth's attacks shut Sonic down easily.

Thats not the right mindset if you are facing a sonic that knows where to find the priority. It doesn't change the matchup on paper itself, but its something you should be weary of. By now Sonics have either realized that priority is not an issue, or they have worked around the issue. What does priority matter when you can run up to your face from across a fourth of FD in 15 frames, powershield your jab or whatever grounded attack, and grab you to get a free 20+ damage after follow-ups? Sonic has the speed and grab game to make up for priority, like metaknight has amazing gimping ability to make up for his low knockback moves.(although not nerly to the same extent, lol)

Aerial priority is diffirent, as it is soley about which hitbox hits the others hurtbox first, and in this case, marth usually wins due to overall power and range. Having sonic under you is generally a bad idea, as his Uair(second hit) will outprioritize like everything lol. In the air marth is way better than Sonic, but be wary of his ground game. Its all I'm saying.

 

[feardragon64]

Sonic is actually a lot more of a pain that you'd think for marth. You'd think, the only advantage sonic has is his movement speed.

Well, that alone makes this an incredibly annoying fight. Spacing is a pain in the *** here, but the good news is he doesn't have a projctile so being safe from afar and resetting your position isn't a problem.
One thing that I found ridiculously annoying whenever I fought a good sonic, his ftilt(or maybe it's his dtilt, they look the same to me) outranges Marth's dtilt. If you have a sonic with good reaction time, be wary of this. But of course, you shouldn't be spamming dtilt so much that you give em the opportunity to counteract it with his.

65:35 Marth. Marth has the obvious advantage here in many categories, just realize that it's a pain in the *** match up. I never have fun during Marth vs. good Sonic battles.

P.S. Bumper kills are humiliating. Sweetspot that **** ledge.

 

[SothE700k]

This is most definitely in Marth's favor.
Yes, Sonic has speed, and can juggle. But remember the poor priority he has.

Marth decimates Sonic in the air, as Sonic has crap priority and Marth is one of the best combatants in the air, so every chance you get, pop Sonic into the air (throw, dancing blade, u-tilt, whatever you gotta do) every chance you get. And if you see Sonic coming down with his d-air? Counter him!

OHHHH...Dancing Blade, that's one of Sonic's banes by far. Easiest to stop him in his tracks and keep him in the air as well.

What Sonics try to do is confuse the living crap out of you by jumping, grinding, spinning, the works. I say your best move as Marth is to commit to your spaced SHFF and pull some fast n-airs. Its degrading too when you can just keep nailing Sonic no matter how hard he tries to mix it up on approaches as well.

Its true that a good Sonic can win, but don't we say that about EVERYONE? "You can win if you're good enough." I've heard that story plenty of times.

 

[Napilopez]

Sonic is actually a lot more of a pain that you'd think for marth. You'd think, the only advantage sonic has is his movement speed.

Well, that alone makes this an incredibly annoying fight. Spacing is a pain in the *** here, but the good news is he doesn't have a projctile so being safe from afar and resetting your position isn't a problem.
One thing that I found ridiculously annoying whenever I fought a good sonic, his ftilt(or maybe it's his dtilt, they look the same to me) outranges Marth's dtilt. If you have a sonic with good reaction time, be wary of this. But of course, you shouldn't be spamming dtilt so much that you give em the opportunity to counteract it with his.

65:35 Marth. Marth has the obvious advantage here in many categories, just realize that it's a pain in the *** match up. I never have fun during Marth vs. good Sonic battles.

P.S. Bumper kills are humiliating. Sweetspot that **** ledge.

Pretty good idea of the match-up I'd say XD. You probably mean ftilt, which is sonic's longest forward ranged move, and has very nice range overall. It will clang with many smashes(not sure if it will with Marth's, although I think it will), comes out very quickly, is disjointed, and has a tendency to shield poke(don't powershield from close, you'll get him by the second hit). Dtilt is a nice move for setups and comes out just as quick. A tipped dtilt will knock you horizontally with a good chance of tripping, while a dtilt from close will knock you upward for many follow-ups. If a sonic is dtilting a lot against you though, just shield and grab really. it moves sonic forward, so it is really shield bait to Marth's nicely ranged and quick grab.

 

[Umby]

Well the real thing about "If the Sonic is good enough, he can win" is that it's been loosely translated from "Just because Sonic is much worse than this character doesn't mean that you are going to completely wreck him simply based on all your advantages on paper."

 

[SothE700k]

Well the real thing about "If the Sonic is good enough, he can win" is that it's been loosely translated from "Just because Sonic is much worse than this character doesn't mean that you are going to completely wreck him simply based on all your advantages on paper."

Yes, true...
May not completely wreck him in an actual match, but its easier to.

 

[Napilopez]

This is most definitely in Marth's favor.
Yes, Sonic has speed, and can juggle. But remember the poor priority he has.

Marth decimates Sonic in the air, as Sonic has crap priority and Marth is one of the best combatants in the air, so every chance you get, pop Sonic into the air (throw, dancing blade, u-tilt, whatever you gotta do) every chance you get. And if you see Sonic coming down with his d-air? Counter him!

OHHHH...Dancing Blade, that's one of Sonic's banes by far. Easiest to stop him in his tracks and keep him in the air as well.

What Sonics try to do is confuse the living crap out of you by jumping, grinding, spinning, the works. I say your best move as Marth is to commit to your spaced SHFF and pull some fast n-airs. Its degrading too when you can just keep nailing Sonic no matter how hard he tries to mix it up on approaches as well.

Its true that a good Sonic can win, but don't we say that about EVERYONE? "You can win if you're good enough." I've heard that story plenty of times.

I have some disagreements with this, dependent on the skill level you face.

As I edited in my first post, priority in the ground at least won't be an issue for a good Sonic. Also, I don't recomend the countering of Dair, because most good Sonics will autocancel dair into a shield or shieldgrab, which means punishment for marth. He is much better off trying to grab Sonic upon landing. Counter also doesn't work well on Sonics Spindash/charge because its too quick. Sonic will often just jumproll past the counter attack once it has been activated.

Otherwise, I pretty much agreee with you. Dancing blad is hard to powershield or time invincibility against. And aerial game will shut sonic down.

I am not trying to make this seem like Sonic is good in this matchup. I just want to make sure you guys know how to deal with a decent Sonic. Sonic's face enough decent marths, marths don't face enough decent Sonics. Lack of knowledge can make you lose.

Your main advantages are: Aerial game, and killing prowess. Not priority. There is no real "priority" in the air, we just use the terms to simplify which hitbox is more likely to hit the others hurtbox first. In this case, marth wins, very easily. Marth Can tip basically everything, and as such can Kill Sonic much more easily than Sonic can kill Marth. Although spacing against a sonic can be quite difficult, your smashes still come out quicker than his anyways. Those are your two main advantagess, work with them.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Well that was a fast discussion (not suprising considering we just did it in the Sonic boards).
Well, we have it as 35:65 Sonic<Marth, and I've agreed with pretty much all that's been said (except for the Sonic has no priority part. Get that **** out of your heads, because it's not true. Although it's still not "Marth has teh swordz" priority either.)

@Napilopez-while it's true that technically aerials don't have priority, the community refers to it as priority anyway, because it's a lot easier than saying "it is more likely that Marth's fair will hit Sonic out of his fair than vice versa" everytime. We just say Marth's fair "out prioritizes" Sonic's fair.

 

[feardragon64]

Oh short side note.

Sonic on wifi kills marth.

I know wifi kills marth in the first place, but vs. sonic on wifi it's impossible to perform any spacing whatsoever.
Just a side note.

P.S. exaggerating a bit, but point still holds

 

[Tenki]

Your main advantages are: Aerial game, and killing prowess. Not priority. There is no real "priority" in the air, we just use the terms to simplify which hitbox is more likely to hit the others hurtbox first. In this case, marth wins, very easily. Marth Can tip basically everything, and as such can Kill Sonic much more easily than Sonic can kill Marth. Although spacing against a sonic can be quite difficult, your smashes still come out quicker than his anyways. Those are your two main advantagess, work with them.

Either way, Sonic will get beaten out of his aerials by your aerials because his aerial horizontal range sucks.

Oh yeah, if you're good at brickwalls, do it. Especially on edges. Then camp his landing spots.

If you have the ability to, don't shield his spindashes, attack them.

 

[Kizzu-kun]

Again...
Skill level doesn`t matter, this is a character match-up discussion.
This is not about who is going to win, but who have the advantage.

 

[SothE700k]

I have some disagreements with this, dependent on the skill level you face.

As I edited in my first post, priority in the ground at least won't be an issue for a good Sonic. Also, I don't recomend the countering of Dair, because most good Sonics will autocancel dair into a shield or shieldgrab, which means punishment for marth. He is much better off trying to grab Sonic upon landing. Counter also doesn't work well on Sonics Spindash/charge because its too quick. Sonic will often just jumproll past the counter attack once it has been activated.

Otherwise, I pretty much agreee with you. Dancing blad is hard to powershield or time invincibility against. And aerial game will shut sonic down.

I am not trying to make this seem like Sonic is good in this matchup. I just want to make sure you guys know how to deal with a decent Sonic. Sonic's face enough decent marths, marths don't face enough decent Sonics. Lack of knowledge can make you lose.

Your main advantages are: Aerial game, and killing prowess. Not priority. There is no real "priority" in the air, we just use the terms to simplify which hitbox is more likely to hit the others hurtbox first. In this case, marth wins, very easily. Marth Can tip basically everything, and as such can Kill Sonic much more easily than Sonic can kill Marth. Although spacing against a sonic can be quite difficult, your smashes still come out quicker than his anyways. Those are your two main advantagess, work with them.

*Ponders about this...*
I honestly don't get the point here about priority on the ground. I've poked and f-tilted Sonic out of his ground moves, and if they didn't beat him, they clashed and both set off neutral. Never has Sonic's attacks on the ground gone through me and hit me.

Minus that disagreement, I like the points you make there.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Well, Sonic's f-tilt has really good range, so if you're d-tilt happy it could be a problem. But then substituting f-tilts instead fixes the problem (unless Sonic p-shields the f-tilt, because then he could run up and grab, but that's mindgames so it doesn't really count).

 

[Tenki]

Mindgames don't count in matchups, you sillies.

Baiting and punishment take no part here, especially when it comes to Sonic.

*Ponders about this...*
I honestly don't get the point here about priority on the ground. I've poked and f-tilted Sonic out of his ground moves, and if they didn't beat him, they clashed and both set off neutral. Never has Sonic's attacks on the ground gone through me and hit me.

Minus that disagreement, I like the points you make there.

Up-tilted F-tilt? Or maybe he staggered the timing to beat it out slightly after Marth attacked.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Where does it say up tilt? He's saying that he's never seen Sonic beat his d-tilt or f-tilt before.

 

[SothE700k]

^^Where does it say up tilt? He's saying that he's never seen Sonic beat his d-tilt or f-tilt before.

Quite right, thank you.

 

[Tenki]

I meant doing a diagonal F-tilt. I'm not sure atm, but maybe he pushed it upwards so that it went over the d-tilt poke.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^That actually might work. I should test that (later). But it seems more likely that he just f-tilted after Marth d-tilted, hitting Marth before the IASA frames came up.

 

[Napilopez]

EDITED for stuffies

Again...
Skill level doesn`t matter, this is a character match-up discussion.
This is not about who is going to win, but who have the advantage.

=/

I said clearly, several times, that Marth has the advantage. I also stated that umby made a good summary of the match-up.

The information I provided was moreso a tool that marths could use in this match-up should they ever need to. If you want strict numbers, then 65:35 would probably be appropriate. But that was pretty clear from the get-go and thus I provided information on specific situations. Nevertheless, marth has the advantage. I just found some of the reasons for marths advantage to be apocryphal or misleading.

At some point you have to factor in the situations Marth might find himself against a decent sonic. What I meant with my post was to simply give you marths with not much experience against Sonic an idea of how to react to certain situations, and how a decent sonic will react to certain situations, so you can better react to the situation. Just trying to help XD


Also, this is a question, and not a sarcastic or rude question or anything. I just really want to know, what do you mean player skill doesn't come into the discussion? I guess it depends on your definition of skill. If a Sonic only knows to spin dash, doesnt know how to autocancel a d-air, or shieldcancel a sideb, then its a very different matchup. I'm simply stating that most decent sonics will make use of those techniques, and trying to provide you with information about them. I guess to simplify what I'm getting at, at the lowest level of skill, Ike has the advantage over Diddy. Why? Lets say you just introduced someone to smash. All they know how to use effectively is the Cstick for smashes and tap jump or XandY for jump. (Lol this is precisely how most people I introduce smash to play). At this skill level, Ike has the advantage over Diddy, because ike can kill diddy so much more easily, and diddy doesn't even know how to use bananas. However we all know that as both players' skills increase, the matchup begins to skew in Diddy's favor. Thats what I was getting at

 

[ROOOOY!]

35:65 Marth.
STFU people talking about Sonic's priority, none of you know what you're talking about you're just parroting what every other anti-fan boy who's **** with him is saying.
:3 I'm grouchy in the mornings.
It's not like Sonic can outprioritize Marth's sword much, but seriously there are a lot of characters with worse priority problems than Sonic.

Umby's post was indeed a good one. Dancing Blade ***** Sonic, bear that in mind.

 

[Pierce7d]

Eh, let me not repeat anything, and just settle for saying that Sonic is fast enough to penetrate Marth's Fair zoning. In this match-up (and yes, I do face good Sonics), I tend to rely on timing rather than ordinary pattern zoning. UTILT IS YOUR BEST FINISHER ON SONIC. Just like all your other moves, it beats out Sonic's stuff, and can hit him from the ground or the air, muffing all his approaches.

 

[Umby]

Speaking of Sonic vs Marth, anyone wanna play sometime this afternoon? I actually don't play as many Marths as I'd like to.

 

[Pierce7d]

Speaking of Sonic vs Marth, anyone wanna play sometime this afternoon? I actually don't play as many Marths as I'd like to.

Oh short side note.

Sonic on wifi kills marth.

I know wifi kills marth in the first place, but vs. sonic on wifi it's impossible to perform any spacing whatsoever.
Just a side note.

P.S. exaggerating a bit, but point still holds

this

Spoiler

10lagjohns

 

[Umby]

Well don't worry. My Sonic sucks.

 

[Steel]

Agreed pierce..

Sonic has the speed to penetrate marths sword, similar to how Shiek does. But that's about it.. he can't reliably kill Marth and really struggles with Marth's zoning and pressure seeing as how he is outranged.

Probably 65:35, maybe 70:30.

 

[Pierce7d]

65:35 on this one. Sonic's Fsmash is underrated, and that Dsmash is gimp for Marth's poor lateral recovery (though I really don't get hit by Dsmash)

 

[Emblem Lord]

I personally stand by 70/30, but whatever is agreed upon by the majority is fine by me.

 

[_Kadaj_]

70/30 sounds about right

also i didnt read the first page but you can grab him out of his up-b
if some1 mentioned it already sorry

 

[Umby]

70/30 sounds about right

also i didnt read the first page but you can grab him out of his up-b
if some1 mentioned it already sorry

You can, but it's shit hard to do.

 

[_Kadaj_]

Lol your right about that
Same with game and watch but his is wayyy harder. If you manage to get him that's like GOLDEN lol

 

[ROOOOY!]

That, and it has enough height and vertical distance to be used safetly, not to mention that's not his only method of recovering.
If I ever get grabbed out of my spring I will jab forks into my eyes. It's going to be very infrequent that you can do it.

 

[Napilopez]

Marth has a Nice ranged quick grab, so its possible, but invincibility frames, other recovery options, as well as other ways to getting around it(Huggin edge with Uair or dodge, lol) make it more feasible. But its still a good thing to keep in mind, especially as the Sonic probably wont be expecting it =PP

And oho, I would say Sonic is more hampered than Marth is on Wifi, at least from my experience. Spacing for marth is definately going to be hard, but so is it for sonic. When you can cover so much ground so quickly, for sonic to space against marth(ugh shffled fair walls). You're better off at staying defensive and letting sonic aproach you.

I think 70/30 is too harsh, 65/35 is more like it. But then again, I'm main Sonic =P

 

[_Kadaj_]

Lol yea I know what you guys mean.
I was just stating that if in the event that it occurs then you should grab him. Just like if you were playing snake. It doesn't happen often but if it does then grab him

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Well, it's not exactly like Snake because Sonic has an amazing uair that he'll use if your close enough to grab him anyway. And Sonic has invincibility frames unlike Snake.

 

[_Kadaj_]

Yea I know that I'm saying that in the rare ocurrence that it does happen (like when fighting snake) grabbing him is good

Maybe if I would have said game and watch it would have been a better comparison

 

[Emblem Lord]

Sonic - Sonic has speed and some auto combos thanks to his spin dash, but other then that you can treat him like a better verison of CF, which doesn't mean much honestly. He still loses in the match-up for the same reasons CF does. Marth is a faster attacker, with more power, more reach and loads more priority. Sonic has some neat tricks up his sleeve with his spin dashes, but alot of it is just mindgames and surprise tricks, not reliable strats or methods of gameplay. Play your usual game of zoning and punishing with Dancing Blade. Sonic can use the stutter step to increase the range of his f-smash so be aware of that. Also it's hard to gimp Sonic so don't worry about it if you can't do it. Edgeguarding vs Sonic is really just to rack up damage. If he tries to edgeguard you try to fair, counter or airdodge. Sonic has good throws to set-up for juggles or tech chasing. Always be sure to nail the tech on his d-throw at lower percents. At higher percents you can just DI away and you won't have to tech since you can land on your feet. U-throw sets up for juggle situations at lower percents so be ready to jump away or airdodge. You can DI away from his jab combo. Just hold back and you will usually be out before the 3rd hit comes out.

Simple analysis I made months ago in the first Marth match-up thread.

Not a whole lot to say about this match-up. Sonic will try to punish Marth when he can and Marth will zone him. Sonic doesn't have the tools to take away Marth's control. He can only look for holes here and there and try to exploit them.

 

[Punishment Divine]

I must say, wow, this is the first MU Analysis where the opposing side came in and almost totally agreed with us XD

I also have to say, you will still want to practice this matchup. The first time I fought a decent Sonic I was thrown pretty off guard. I still won, but practice makes perfect. Also, decent Sonics are hard to come by, so if you happen to see one you might wanna challenge him to a couple friendlies haha