Match Up Discussion 2010 (Zelda vs Meta Knight)

[GodAtHand]

Just thought of something else that I am going to throw out there because it could be useful to someone somewhere.

So if you have popped out of nado a few times and the meta realizes it you can use that as a pseudo-opportunity. The next time you pop out of tornado he is probably going to cancel it instantly so he can try to reach the ground before you, so instead of popping out then air dodging for safety, you can pop out and immediately fast fall before you air dodge (if you air dodge at all). This may allow you to get to the ground before him and punish OR punish mid-air. This could scare him to either not use the nado at all or to try to catch you in it next time by not canceling. And if he doesn't cancel it next time and you just air dodge through it he is in a heap of trouble. You kinda have to know what he is going to do for this work though.

I know it sounds weird but it really works. At least this way you have a few more options and even some mind-games for that little crapper.

 

[KayLo!]

Yet another anti-nado strategy that requires some good spacing and a little bit of stupidity on the MK's part.....

Not many MKs do grounded nados too often, but if they do and you're a little too close for fsmash to come out in time...... dtilt instead. Dtilt cancels a grounded tornado, and when MK's tornado is canceled, they'll almost always go straight into a side b because of the buttons they're pushing.

Really situational, but it's a free punish with whatever you want.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I know jujux's friend said it but it is worth asking

jab > nado?

 

[MrEh]

No.

Because that assumes that MK will be using the Nado as an approach. Which will not happen.

 

[KayLo!]

Jab is like a mini fsmash. It beats a grounded nado provided you can get it out in time. It's unlikely to happen, but hey, there're a lot of really stupid MKs out there.

 

[Geddan]

Jab is like a mini fsmash. It beats a grounded nado provided you can get it out in time. It's unlikely to happen, but hey, there're a lot of really stupid MKs out there.

sorry, please disregard this post.
i know mods can read edits, i was in a bad mood.

 

[KayLo!]

Can't read edits in rooms we don't mod, so no worries..... I have no idea what you said, lol.

If you disagree with my statement, though, feel free to say so..... but I wasn't saying Zelda should try to jab tornado. If MK is using it correctly, you probably won't be on the ground or in a position to space a jab.

Just saying that it technically does work.

 

[sniperworm]

I've been meaning to post my thoughts but I haven't really had time (and still don't, lol).

However, I would like to make a suggestion. Why don't we stop talking about the tornado and start discussing all the rest of Metaknight's strategies? I think the nado has been discussed enough at this point.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

That's true, but it is always a good option for him here.

His Ftilt though is another menace that doesn't get enough credit. That move is wicked!!!!

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I've been meaning to post my thoughts but I haven't really had time (and still don't, lol).

However, I would like to make a suggestion. Why don't we stop talking about the tornado and start discussing all the rest of Metaknight's strategies? I think the nado has been discussed enough at this point.

What are you talking about nado dsmash and up B are the only moves MK has thus the only moves needed to be discussed. Continue discussing nado guys.

 

[KayLo!]

Uh. I really don't have much else to contribute (since, again, I really only do this MU in doubles), but one other thing you can play around with if you have the nuts is dairing his Shuttle Loop.

It's risky and stupid if you don't need to do it, but sometimes you'll be in a position where airdodging is a bad option..... because it'll set you up for a glide attack when he loops back around. If you're ***ed out of your second jump, you might as well try to time a dair...... it's not that hard since dair is so disjointed + out for so long, and if he SLs up your skirt, it's a free spike.

I mean, if you miss, you'll either die or be sent farther off-stage, but you were probably gonna die anyway, so. x.x

............I feel like the queen of situational advice now, but hey, there's not much we got on this guy. ;;

@Scary: I agree. Ftilt is a *****.

 

[MrEh]

Talking about unpunishable aerials are waaay more fun.

 

[Toadallstar2]

I love using my Dair actually. I practiced a lot with it, and I would say my timing is pretty good in general. I'm not scared to use a dair. Kirby's are pretty easy to dair since I usually know where they are going. And other predictable recoveries from other characters.

 

[Kaffei]

I love using my Dair actually. I practiced a lot with it, and I would say my timing is pretty good in general. I'm not scared to use a dair. Kirby's are pretty easy to dair since I usually know where they are going. And other predictable recoveries from other characters.

A Kirby does not move as fast as a Shuttle Loop

 

[MrEh]

Kirby is easy to Dair because he has nothing that really beats the Dair.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Kinda beat me to the punch there.

Shuttle Loop > Kirby

though I must say it's kinda easy to land the sour dair but sweet dair is definitely harder to land.

 

[Toadallstar2]

If the enemy has a bad recover and is quite high in damage, a sourspotted dair can actually be useful.... dair from a Zelda is so underrated.. nobody expects her to do one. Love surprising people with a dair.

 

[Kataefi]

so how does one use zelda when she's on the ground against mk?

 

[Kaffei]

If the enemy has a bad recover and is quite high in damage, a sourspotted dair can actually be useful.... dair from a Zelda is so underrated.. nobody expects her to do one. Love surprising people with a dair.

But this is about MK vs Zelda... MK's recovery is good

 

[Veggie123]

I kind of don't like using fsmash excessively in this MU. I mean I still do it a lot, but he can punish it way easy. If he approaches from the air, he'll usually do that auto-DI out of it thing and get hit by one of the weak hits and get away generally unscathed.

I usually to try dsmash/dtilt/grab a lot. Though dtilt isn't the best to intercept ground approaches especially when he catches on and perfect shields it to shield grab. Then again I'm kind of bad at this MU anyway since all of my wins against good MKs result from SDs or something dumb that they did lol

85:15...just cause you always see 80:20 or 90:10.

 

[MrEh]

so how does one use zelda when she's on the ground against mk?

Not the way a lot of Zeldas fight MK, that's for sure.

Throwing out arbitrary Fsmashes against MK is a sure way to get punished, because MK has no reason to commit to an approach against Zelda in the first place. He can walk up to her out of Fsmash range, wait for her to do anything, and then punish accordingly. Zelda is one of those few characters where you can run up and shield against her and she literally has no options.

 

[Bandit]

so how does one use zelda when she's on the ground against mk?

OoS Usmash if he's in the air. You can't throw this move around because you will get punished. This is why OoS Usmash is far better since he's now in a guaranteed hit.

OoS Bair/Fair. This is true for every match-up. By far the best OoS punish option. It is also the hardest to master.

Dtilt if he's on the ground. MK has no approach on the ground that can go through it. He can always run-up, bait dtilt, jump and nair. That would win, but if you are consitently throwing out Fsmashes (see note below), he would be taking a risk using this mix-up.

Fsmash for bait purposes only. Don't spam the move, but you have to show it a lot to get it in his head that you have it. Once he thinks you're going to use it, he will work around it.

Hyphen Smash his glide attack. Usmash > Glide Attack.

-----

Pretty much, this only concerns when MK is approaching. If he gets the lead, and you have to approach him because he starts camping, then there will be problems. Zelda has to get close enough to pressure him and bait him into giving up his camp. At that range, he has a multitude of options while Zelda is limited. 6 Frame Usmash that is heavily punished on miss. 16 frame Fsmash that isn't fast enough. 5 frame dtilt that is her jab. 4 frame Dsmash that is very punishable on miss.

I have used Naryu's 8 frames of invicibility (frames 5-12) a lot when people are bearing on me or they are too close or as a combo breaker. It's a fine attack to throw out there to frustrate the player, but it is the worst of all options if you miss.

 

[HylianMageAuree]

OoS Bair/Fair. This is true for every match-up. By far the best OoS punish option. It is also the hardest to master.

I cannot see how this would hit MK with the sweet spot, especially if it's an onstage approach from his part. He is pretty short as it is... correct me if I'm wrong. It might work on his short-hopped aerials, but other than that, I doubt it.

Dtilt if he's on the ground. MK has no approach on the ground that can go through it.

Is that so?... I've always thought his Dtilt out-ranges and out-prioritizes ours. I know Dtilt is quite good at catching MK out of most of his approaches, but I'm pretty sure he has some ground-based approaches that can beat it. Nevertheless, you are right about its use.

I have used Naryu's 8 frames of invicibility (frames 5-12) a lot when people are bearing on me or they are too close or as a combo breaker. It's a fine attack to throw out there to frustrate the player, but it is the worst of all options if you miss.

Very true. A (reversed) Nayru's Love eats through some of his approaches such as dashes and it can also be used when getting back onstage by reversibly double jumping (which he will most likely try to punish with an F- or Dsmash), which will get him offstage. Exploitable c:<

I have written some things on what to do and what to not do in this match up, it's pretty outdated but I'll revamp it a bit. Okay, here it is:

What to do in this MU:
- Space effectively and punish approaches; Fsmash, Dtilt and Fire Glide. Fsmash and Dsmash are your best options OoS.
- Use Din's Fire effectively; camp at all given moments when MK is distant from you (especially when he's in midair) to rack up damage and/or bait him into a shield/airdodge (which might cause an opening and is plausibly punishable).
- Zelda has a Dtilt lock on MK around 50-100; take this to your advantage. If you manage to hit a Dtilt around 40% to 70%, reuse and lock him. If he's close to escaping, Dsmash; if he trips after having racked up a decent amount of damage, Fsmash.
- When caught up in Tornado, tap the A button rapidly or DI up and break through with Dair. MK's will try to 'nado at your head, so hold your shield up, and punish effectively*.
- Try to finish him off as soon as possible, but don't get reckless. Try to bait him into a Usmash or Utilt; if you, however, rush in mindlessly, you will be at great risk and susceptible to major damage racking, so do be careful.
- Try to get back onstage or grab the ledge without having to use Farore's Wind. If there isn't any other option, recover wisely and try not to recover directly onstage; MK can punish it very quickly and effectively.

What to not do in this MU:
- Approach MK recklessly with dashes, grabs and Hyphen Smashes; try to avoid going for a grab in this MU, only grab when you're sure you'll connect (e.g. shieldgrabs).
- Approach MK in midair; he ***** in midair priority, lag and range-wise, so just try to get back onstage safely and as quick as possible (using possible airdodges or FF Nairs), and look to punish him from there on.
- Gimp MK; as mentioned before, he dominates in midair, so do not try to gimp him unless you're positive you can, or else you'll get punish and you could very well lose a stock.
- Din's Fire or even approach MK while in his Tornado state at close- to midrange. Din's Fire can beat Tornado when it's somewhat charged if you hit it at an angle behind him (I think)**

Alright, that's that. Feel free to comment and criticize on the above, and:
* I am not sure what we can punish him with OoS after he gets out of his Nado state. I am thinking Ftilt, or would that be too laggy?
** Please elaborate, I'm sure we can hit him out of Nado at certain frames and a certain Din's blast radius (close to fully charged?).

That's all I can give for now.
Some things I personally have trouble with punishing:
- Spaced Dair poking on my shield. If I Nair OoS, I'll get punished by another Dair or Nado. If I Usmash, it won't hit and he can just have another free Dair or anything else on me for that matter. Would Din's Gliding OoS away from him be a safe option here?

- Ftilt spacing. I do not know how to punish this. I think a quick dash attack OoS might work after the last hit, but smart MKs won't use this if you're shielding.

 

[KayLo!]

Dtilt...... is not as safe as people make it out to be. It doesn't have much actual range since Zelda extends her hurtbox out (not as bad as ftilt, but still), so once the hitbox is done, her foot is a prime target for punishment.

Sounds silly, and I've mostly encountered this with Pikas (although MK is undoubtedly just as good at it), but sometimes people will anticipate a dtilt and use their own dtilt's hitbox to catch Zelda's foot as she draws it back in. If you're aiming to hit, it's not as much of a problem...... just be careful about throwing it out as bait so freely at certain distances.

Things I generally have problems with against MK (the biggies, at least):
Ftilt - self-explanatory.
Off-stage gimps - self-explanatory.
His overall pressure game - once he's inside, I find it really hard to get in a move that'll shake him off before I take ******** amounts of damage. Normally I resort to Naryu's, dsmash, or using Zelda's superior air speed + airdodging.
Uair juggling - usually only comes into play on stages with dumb platform layouts he can take advantage of. The problem is that you only get one ban..... and he has a good number of places he can CP to screw us over.

 

[HylianMageAuree]

Dtilt...... is not as safe as people make it out to be. It doesn't have much actual range since Zelda extends her hurtbox out (not as bad as ftilt, but still), so once the hitbox is done, her foot is a prime target for punishment.

Sounds silly, and I've mostly encountered this with Pikas (although MK is undoubtedly just as good at it), but sometimes people will anticipate a dtilt and use their own dtilt's hitbox to catch Zelda's foot as she draws it back in. If you're aiming to hit, it's not as much of a problem...... just be careful about throwing it out as bait so freely at certain distances.

It's not silly at all, and I know what you mean.

Things I generally have problems with against MK (the biggies, at least):
Ftilt - self-explanatory.
Off-stage gimps - self-explanatory.
His overall pressure game - once he's inside, I find it really hard to get in a move that'll shake him off before I take ******** amounts of damage. Normally I resort to Naryu's, dsmash, or using Zelda's superior air speed + airdodging.
Uair juggling - usually only comes into play on stages with dumb platform layouts he can take advantage of. The problem is that you only get one ban..... and he has a good number of places he can CP to screw us over.

I agree for the most, even though I'm not as often victim to Uair juggling. I thought Zelda's lightweight made it possible to escape that relatively easily? I could be wrong, I know I get hit by Uairs twice or so, but I usually DI to the left or right (depending which direction the stage is closest to) on the second hit and airdodge out. You could also try airdodging out and fastfall-Uairing him to punish it, but it seems tricky and I don't know if it would work (possible theory).

Also, yeah: Nair doesn't have enough priority in the most cases to break us free from aerial combos and Nayru's is somewhat slow. It depends, really; I'd say airdodge in the air, Dsmash if he's in front of you and Nayru's if he's behind you.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

can't you shake him off by just dsmashing? His only option that beats this is his dtilt.

 

[HylianMageAuree]

can't you shake him off by just dsmashing? His only option that beats this is his dtilt.

If he's in front of you, that would seem like your most reliable and (with approximately 3 frames of start-up lag if I'm not mistaken) fastest option. But... as you know, its second hit is pretty laggy, has mediocre priority and barely any range. Nayru's Love would be much faster to execute (start-up lag is approx. 4 or 5 frames, if I recall correctly), and its priority hitboxes and invincibility frames behind of her are a nice contribution when it comes to getting MK off and away from you.

Also, if you're not careful, he could knock you back slightly into midair, but just about enough to turn a mistimed Dsmash into a Dair, and we all know how atrocious the landing lag on that move is if she lands before the move actually initiates, so recklessly mashing Dsmash while he's on top of you might not be too smart...

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

If he's in front of you, that would seem like your most reliable and (with approximately 3 frames of start-up lag if I'm not mistaken) fastest option. But... as you know, its second hit is pretty laggy, has mediocre priority and barely any range. Nayru's Love would be much faster to execute (start-up lag is approx. 4 or 5 frames, if I recall correctly), and its priority hitboxes and invincibility frames behind of her are a nice contribution when it comes to getting MK off and away from you.

Also, if you're not careful, he could knock you back slightly into midair, but just about enough to turn a mistimed Dsmash into a Dair, and we all know how atrocious the landing lag on that move is if she lands before the move actually initiates, so recklessly mashing Dsmash while he's on top of you might not be too smart...

Isn't NL more laggy than dsmash ?

 

[KayLo!]

Laggy is laggy, doesn't matter how much really. Whether you miss an NL or a dsmash, you'll get punished hard for either one.

Although MK is fast enough to punish even some of Zelda's generally "safer" options, so almost everything's risky in this MU.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Laggy is laggy, doesn't matter how much really. Whether you miss an NL or a dsmash, you'll get punished hard for either one.

Although MK is fast enough to punish even some of Zelda's generally "safer" options, so almost everything's risky in this MU.

If you connect with dsmash you shouldn't get punished for it.

 

[KayLo!]

Thanks. I was completely unaware of that. x.o

Although I guess it's worth noting that with Naryu's, half the time you get punished even when it connects, lol.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Thanks. I was completely unaware of that. x.o

ugh i'll stop posting then.

 

[HylianMageAuree]

Although I guess it's worth noting that with Naryu's, half the time you get punished even when it connects, lol.

How? O.o
I know you can get punished if it only stuns the opponent and doesn't completely hit and knock them back (usually happens when it hits with the frontal hitbox). However, I do not see this happening if it connects entirely from behind, causing the opponent to get knocked in front of Zelda.

 

[KayLo!]

Naryu's does a lot of funky things..... maybe I'm just using it wrong (even though it's fairly straightforward.....), but sometimes even when it hits from behind Zelda, it'll pop them right in front of my face. -_-

Talking at mid and higher percentages too, so it's not because of too low/too high damage.

I think the move is very, very dependent on how your opponent's DIing, so if they're in the middle of a move or real good at on-the-spot SDI, it can really influence where they get sent.

 

[sniperworm]

Dtilt...... is not as safe as people make it out to be. It doesn't have much actual range since Zelda extends her hurtbox out (not as bad as ftilt, but still), so once the hitbox is done, her foot is a prime target for punishment.

Sounds silly, and I've mostly encountered this with Pikas (although MK is undoubtedly just as good at it), but sometimes people will anticipate a dtilt and use their own dtilt's hitbox to catch Zelda's foot as she draws it back in. If you're aiming to hit, it's not as much of a problem...... just be careful about throwing it out as bait so freely at certain distances.

I agree with this. Baiting an attack and striking the opponent's outstretched limb is a fundamental principle of most fighting games.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Naryu's does a lot of funky things..... maybe I'm just using it wrong (even though it's fairly straightforward.....), but sometimes even when it hits from behind Zelda, it'll pop them right in front of my face. -_-

Talking at mid and higher percentages too, so it's not because of too low/too high damage.

I think the move is very, very dependent on how your opponent's DIing, so if they're in the middle of a move or real good at on-the-spot SDI, it can really influence where they get sent.

Nayru will hit them in whatever direction Zelda is facing.

 

[MrEh]

I agree with this. Baiting an attack and striking the opponent's outstretched limb is a fundamental principle of most fighting games.

This.

Even more so when a character has disjoint on their moves. Zelda's foot is good, but it won't beat a sword. Attempting to poke MK is laughable.

 

[KayLo!]

Nayru will hit them in whatever direction Zelda is facing.

I know, but sometimes it knocks them right in front of my face, so they can just jab/grab/whatever me while I'm in cooldown.

It's just a weird move.

 

[MrEh]

Naryu's is just an unreliable move in general. Extremely low payoff for such a gigantic risk.

It's like you're taking a huge risk just to reset the situation, when in most cases, there are far safer options like rolling away. If I'm in a situation where I will either be hit by MK or I can Naryu's, I'd rather get hit.

 

[KayLo!]

If I'm in a situation where I will either be hit by MK or I can Naryu's, I'd rather get hit.

I agreed with you up until this part. x.o

Secretly, I go for Naryu's all the time in friendlies just because it's such a pretty move..... but yeah, it's pretty bad. Half the time there's no way to tell where they'll end up going (besides knowing they'll go somewhere in front of you), but it has saved me as a combo breaker, so it's not utterly useless. Just something of a crapshoot.

Where do you guys take MK? And an even bigger question: what do you ban?

If I were to play against MK in tourney with Zelda (LOL), I think I'd ban Delfino. Almost said RC, but his ability to shark on Delfino seems way more annoying. .....Or maybe Brinstar? Just trying to start some kind of useful discussion. x.x