Match-Up Discussion #12! Wolf

[BacklashMarth]

Oh I know this and I don't blame ya, I kinda envy you guys(as much as I hate Marth players). The Zelda and Sheik boards are decent and fairly well organized with intelligent discussion, but the Fox boards are as good as dead and the Luigi board is just a couple Luigi mains begging more people to play Luigi. As a Fox and Weegee player it's kinda frustrating, if those boards were like this one I would be in heaven and my game would improve immensely.

What did a marth player ever do to you? (except thoroughly pwn ur main and 2ndary characters on the regular basis). We're good ppls. We have the most educated noobs in this entire site thanks to Pierce doing his conducutor and redirector thing. EL analyzes matchups for us and provides the pros and casual players with vital tactics and mixups. Whenever we do something, we find a way to make it epic.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Well considering Wolf doesnt have all that much going for him anyway, it doesnt matter one way or another.

It depends on what you're definition of "much" is.

 

[-Mars-]

What did a marth player ever do to you? (except thoroughly pwn ur main and 2ndary characters on the regular basis). We're good ppls. We have the most educated noobs in this entire site thanks to Pierce doing his conducutor and redirector thing. EL analyzes matchups for us and provides the pros and casual players with vital tactics and mixups. Whenever we do something, we find a way to make it epic.

Marths don't pawn my main, my Sheik will give most Marths a good match everytime. I didn't say you weren't good people, I said I liked how organized your board is and I wished some of my characters boards were like this one.

 

[luckywind]

marth is my 2

 

[BacklashMarth]

Marths don't pawn my main, my Sheik will give most Marths a good match everytime. I didn't say you weren't good people, I said I liked how organized your board is and I wished some of my characters boards were like this one.

Oh, i guess i have to give you props for standing a chance against marth using sheik. I think she got nerfed pretty badly from melee to brawl so thats no small feat. (i simply dont lose to sheik now, i lost way more in melee).

 

[Alus]

Can they win tournaments?

This is competitive gaming.

A character is either weak or a character is strong.

Marth can't win tournaments consistently.

He is weak.

Fox and Luigi can't do this nor can they even place high consistently.

They are even weaker.

MK and Snake can win tournaments consistently.

They are strong.

Understand?

and its this thinking that ruins the game or its chance of having... (even though i think this too)

less people playing tourneys with the char because in thier opinion the char sucks means the harder it will be for that char to be throughly discovered and have good teqniques to be found...

i wish that teirs didnt rule peoples lives

Dont you agree Emblem Lord?

 

[Emblem Lord]

People want to win and they will do what it takes to win.

And usually weak characters don't have much to their metagame that is worth the time it takes to discover.

Which is why they are weak.

Either way though, if a person really wants to mess around with their character and take that character as far as they can go then they shouldn't hide behind any type of excuse. I put so much work into Marth knowing that he will never win tournaments consistently.

Hiding behind the tier list is just an excuse.

 

[Shaya]

twoskilld4u (you couldn't fit in an e there?), there's good characters and bad characters in mostly any 'competitive fighting game'.

If you are not a tournament seeker tiers shouldn't nor wouldn't mean anything to you. However if you are a tournament regular, or strive to be 'great' in the competitive scene, you either need to follow tiers or single handely raise the 'bar' of a character. I believe (whatever) that Ken did this for Marth during melee, and characters such as the Ice Climbers and Jigglypuff were seen in a different light due mostly to individuals as well.

Why would he agree with that statement? Tiers are meant to be made, constructed and perhaps BROKEN and remade again. Analogies to human society would be great here.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Tiers can't be made or broken. As soon as the game is finished, the tiers are already set. All we can do is to find it out...

 

[Emblem Lord]

Exactly.

Tiers don't change.

Human understanding and perception is what changes.

 

[xxCANDYxx]

i think wolf has a pretty good matchup agianst marth....i use my wolf against marths and tourny and i've beaten some of the best marths in tournys

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Well...how many US Marths are up to par with Candy?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Don't just make a statement Candy.

Explain why.

 

[xxCANDYxx]

well...all wolf has is Bair on marth....most wolf players just spam Bair anyways...and it has more reach then marths ariels....marth can also b gimped pretty easy with a Bair of a spike
iono its hard to explain...just if you can space right with wolf....you should b able to have a decent matchup with marths that can space

 

[Turbo Ether]

well...all wolf has is Bair on marth....most wolf players just spam Bair anyways...and it has more reach then marths ariels....marth can also b gimped pretty easy with a Bair of a spike
iono its hard to explain...just if you can space right with wolf....you should b able to have a decent matchup with marths that can space

I'm curious how your Wolf does against Neo's Marth.

 

[VietGeek]

I thought tipped Marth aerials out range Bair? *is confused*

I don't know Candy, try to explain a little more if you will.

Also, both characters try to zone a little. From my experience, a very well spaced Bair will still lose out to a zoning Marth that knows his spacing.

 

[BacklashMarth]

well...all wolf has is Bair on marth....most wolf players just spam Bair anyways...and it has more reach then marths ariels....marth can also b gimped pretty easy with a Bair of a spike
iono its hard to explain...just if you can space right with wolf....you should b able to have a decent matchup with marths that can space

Um, i play with wolf and spiking ANYONE can be a chore in and of itself (much less the problem with wolf's lackluster recovery). Pretty much you can expect this to happen: wolf dairs marth offstage (marth has 50% damage for example), marth meteor cancels with up+b, wolf (still recovering from dair lag) eats a dolphin slash to the face, wolf gets stagespiked. And about marth being easliy gimped, im not sure what you mean by that one. I dont see why you find it so easy considering marth can 1) stall with DB 2) recover with shieldbreaker and 3) get invicibility frames from his up+b thus either pwning anyone who tries to gimp him or at least keep himself from being hit by a gimping move.

 

[Shaya]

Wolf's main strength and ability against Marth is the fact that his ground game can counter your aerial approaches. And he can punish them quite easily too.

Ground to ground or air to air results in Wolf's most likely downfall.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Wolf's F-smash would lose in a direct confrontation with Marth's Fair.

The Fair cuts into the back of Wolf's head as he goes forward with the F-smash.

And Marth's ground game beats out Wolf's bair. Namely f-tilt.

Wolf is just weird to fight, but once you get used to him and know how to exploit his weaknesses it leans in Marth's favor from what I can see.

 

[Steel]

Dtilt > Wolf's fsmash

 

[xxCANDYxx]

I'm curious how your Wolf does against Neo's Marth.

ive only played neo once in tourney at c3 and i beat him...and dont get me wrong...im not bragging or nething...IMO neo is a much better player than me...i just think that wolf has the advantage over marth

and sorry i cant explain the matchup any further...im not exactly the smartest person around when it comes to words haha...but you should b able to out range marth with Bair and Fsmash....and use Dsmash as the kill move

 

[Emblem Lord]

Eh.

Wolf just doesn't have anything that could consistently catch Marth off guard other then his f-smash and he has no safe pressure really other then maybe a bair, but Marth's ground game beats that.

F-smash is also unsafe on block and there are other factors too.

 

[Shaya]

Wolf's pressuring would make most move in closer through the air by short hopping.

While you're in the air, and Wolf is on the ground, Wolf has a lot more options, FAST options. Unlike most other characters Wolf actually can outdo your range on the ground while you're in the air. A 'perfectly spaced' fair on Wolf's shield isn't actually all too safe, for one example.

Also his fsmash hitbox(s) are good at hitting through your shield if it isn't at/near full. Dsmash also hits low and often through a non-full shield. His ftilt is rather useful for halting your air approaches as well.

All in all Marth wins everywhere except through aerial approaches, where it's a lot more riskier for Marth.

While Marth firmly has an advantage in most areas, I believe Wolf has the best situation compared to the other two spacies. Really.

 

[Emblem Lord]

He most certainly has more options then Fox.

Wolf's F-tilt is pretty solid, but I don't know good it is for anti-rushdown.

 

[_Kadaj_]

Yea your right

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You shouldn't worry too much about Wolfs fsmash. Most Wolfs agree, that it's main use is punishment only, thanks to the endless ending lag...and Marth is good at punishing these.

I don't know, how Wolf can outrange Marth...I main Wolf but I just can't see it

 

[Turbo Ether]

Here's a brief overview of Wolf. It's not a dedicated matchup analysis.

Some info based on my playstyle:

Horizontally, Wolf is one of the 5 fastest characters in the air, he's good at spacing Fairs and Bairs to keep himself safe. Bair can be used more rapidly to apply pressure. Rising fair is used for it's great priority and as a strong anti-air attack.

Blaster serves as a good way to disrupt approaches and spacing, it shouldn't be spammed.

He has a powerful DACUS, which can catch people offguard with it's speed and range. It's unsafe on block and should only be used to punish, surprise or change up the spacing situation. DACUS through shield is potentially a good cross up.

Fsmash is also a powerful tool. It should never be used as a poke because it's unsafe and Wolf always has better options. It should only be used to punish, and it's very very good at that, because of the speed and range. He can punish things most characters can't. His out-of-shield punishing is very solid, certainly a step ahead of the other spacies in this regard.

These are strong mid-range tools, so he's best off trying to keep the fight at this range. Up close the safest things he can do are standard jab mixups, grab, Dsmash (Has good shield knockback, but should only be used to kill), Fair/Bair while DI away, and retreating DACUS. His tilts are unsafe up close, but Ftilt and Dtilt have decent range and can be fairly difficult to punish when spaced correctly.

He gets invincibility frames on shine. Pretty useful as a counter, or way to land against jugglers. This may be the only spammable invincibility in the game.

Primary kill move Dsmash. Against lighter characters, Utilt, Usmash and Fair will also get the job done. Bair near the edge too.

That's pretty much it for now. Just wanted make this information available so you could evaluate it for the match up.

Oh yeah, Wolf is gonna primarily recover with SideB, which is actually pretty decent and gives you some ledge options, so I don't think Wolf's recovery is as bad as people claim overall.

 

[_Kadaj_]

His recover is like a cross between lucario and fox

He has options after the Side b

But his up b is horrible on fd

 

[Steel]

We may have underestimated Wolf a tad.

55:45 Marth?

 

[Zankoku]

I think 60:40

Wolf can do stuff but Marth is better at doing stuff so when you want to do stuff Marth does more stuff.

 

[Steel]

His wolf beats Marth's fair. so thats some stuff rite?/

 

[Emblem Lord]

Wolf has some things that work well for him.

Eh. Let's leave it alone for now.

We can always come back.

I mean...both boards agree on 60/40 and no one really argued against it.

 

[Shaya]

I argued against it, EL.

Wolf naturally beats out your aerial approaches. And his pressure game often makes you go to the air.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Marth shines in the air...

 

[Emblem Lord]

Well, honestly I do think Marth still has slight advantage due to edgeguarding and punishing. Plus he can outspace Wolf's main killer, his d-smash.

But Wolf has superior aerial mobility and his bair outranges Marth's fair. But if Marth hits Wolf's Bair then Wolf would get hurt, so spacing is huge in the match-up.

Lasers are easy to deal with of course.

It's mainly the fact that Wolf has superior mobility and aerial range that evens things up. And he is weird as hell to fight. But Marth does outrange Wolf's aerials with his ground game and he also outranges most of Wolf's ground game as well barring his f-smash of course.

I would say 55/45 Marth. But who knows? It could be even or even slightly Wolf's advantage.

This is a match-up that we will definitely come back to.

 

[OmegaXF]

MK's can be spammed 10X better

 

[OmegaXF]

Well, honestly I do think Marth still has slight advantage due to edgeguarding and punishing. Plus he can outspace Wolf's main killer, his d-smash.

But Wolf has superior aerial mobility and his bair outranges Marth's fair. But if Marth hits Wolf's Bair then Wolf would get hurt, so spacing is huge in the match-up.

Lasers are easy to deal with of course.

It's mainly the fact that Wolf has superior mobility and aerial range that evens things up. And he is weird as hell to fight. But Marth does outrange Wolf's aerials with his ground game and he also outranges most of Wolf's ground game as well barring his f-smash of course.

I would say 55/45 Marth. But who knows? It could be even or even slightly Wolf's advantage.

This is a match-up that we will definitely come back to.

A well timed nair can handle Wolfs Bair

 

[Emblem Lord]

I know this. I was just going over what Wolf has up his sleeve.

Still, thanks for the info for those that didn't know.

 

[Remzi]

Hmm, I could see it as being either 6:4 or 55:45. I have a rather hard time against Wolf, but thats just due to my lack of experience against him.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Well, there are a few Wolf players who think, that it's less then 60:40...Snad and Candy even say it's Wolfs advantage...

I originally assumed it to be 60:40 for Marth, since the Dancing Blade is one of the few moves that can punish a well spaced bair...