Match-Up Discussion #12! Wolf

[Emblem Lord]

I remember Candy saying something. But he had no real reasoning, so I had to disregard his post.

Well, the reason why I wanted to re-think this match is after doing some friendlies vs a friend of mine. We discussed the match and even though he beat me in most of the friendlies he gave the nod to Marth.

Bear in mind he is the better player and I hadn't played the game seriously in months.

So, I certainly wasn't playing to the best of my ability, but still I had to acknowledge that Wolf does outrange Marth in the air and has superior aerial mobility.

That combined with his laser and his f-smash could potentially even up the match or give it to Wolf.

But still..my friend accounted for this and still gave it to Marth.

So....we shall see.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Well, good Marths are hard to find, especially in central Europe so I have no practice against a skilled Marth player. I always fight with Wolf. I only use Falco vs MK and Falco. Other than that I only use Wolf, simply because in most cases I'm the better player.

Maybe I should fight some decent Marths ...

 

[Emblem Lord]

To be honest I feel like Wolf is very hard to analyze accurately in regards to his match-ups.

He has some amazing attributes as well as incredible unpredictability.

But his weight which allows him to be CGed and tilt-locked and his poor recovery seem to mitigate these strengths somewhat. The extent of which is somewhat hard to determine though IMO.

I mean all Marth really has in the match up is slightly better punishing and better gimping. BOTH characters can outspace each other's kill moves, so when played well I guess Marth would get the edge since he could gimp Wolf and kill him sooner. On stage though I think Marth and Wolf go dead even or Wolf might have slight advantage. Lasers aren't the problem. It's that Bair and 0 lag fair that Wolf can zone with. He can also bait Marth really well and try to get him to approach by using retreating aerials then quickly push him back out with a laser or an F-smash. Tricky stuff.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I can tell the other Wolf players to join the discussion, if you want

 

[Turbo Ether]

To be honest I feel like Wolf is very hard to analyze accurately in regards to his match-ups.

He has some amazing attributes as well as incredible unpredictability.

But his weight which allows him to be CGed and tilt-locked and his poor recovery seem to mitigate these strengths somewhat. The extent of which is somewhat hard to determine though IMO.

I mean all Marth really has in the match up is slightly better punishing and better gimping. BOTH characters can outspace each other's kill moves, so when played well I guess Marth would get the edge since he could gimp Wolf and kill him sooner. On stage though I think Marth and Wolf go dead even or Wolf might have slight advantage. Lasers aren't the problem. It's that Bair and 0 lag fair that Wolf can zone with. He can also bait Marth really well and try to get him to approach by using retreating aerials then quickly push him back out with a laser or an F-smash. Tricky stuff.

I discussed this matchup with teh_spammerer too, a few weeks ago. He called it 55/45 - 60/40, Marth's favor and I agreed. I'm suprised that Wolf's Bair outranges Marth's Fair. You're also right that Wolf's matchups can be hard to evaluate.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

You are not allowed to post on Marth Boards with that sig, please don't show it here.

 

[VietGeek]

You are not allowed to post on Marth Boards with that sig, please don't show it here.

Your elitism is fail.

Please contribute elsewhere. <_<

---

Anyhow, rediscussing this match-up would be productive. Wolf has interesting qualities that make it a uphill battle for Marth if both players are of equal skill. Like EL said, Wolf has an excellent baiting game, due to his great ability to punish and punish hard.

Hmm...we should get you guys to rediscuss this with the Toon Link boards too. If that's fine after this one with Marth.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Your elitism is fail.

Please contribute elsewhere. <_<

Why, that's a bogus sig is all. I'm not saying he's a bad person. Why do I get the feeling everyone in the MBR hates me?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

K, I'll tell the Wolf players to come here, 'kay?

 

[Sesshomuronay]

I think its 60/40 or 55/45 for wolf. Wolf can outrange marth and has better mobility in the air. Plus wolf has a projectile.

I have absolutely no idea who has better kills moves but im gonna guess that their even or its slightly better for wolf. Thats just me randomly guessing because I havent played many good marths.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Ehh, projectile doesn't give him that big of an advantage, it is slow and easily PS'able.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I feel like this is a match-up where both sides could make an argument for it to swing either way. On the surface Wolf seems to have a clear advantage, but when you take into account that Marth doesn't have a problem with lasers and that Marth can gimp the mess out of Wolf things become alot more murky.

If Wolf is offstage and forced to up b Marth can just run into him then mash up b and stage spike Wolf. There is nothing Wolf can do about that. He would have to Wall tech, which is a little slow in this game and even then Marth is still at an advantageous position. Most of the time Wolf would die outright due to missing the tech.

If Wolf is at an angle where he must forward b then a simple edgehug will do it.

On stage Wolf excels. His bair slightly outranges Marth's aerials, but Marth's f-tilt outranges Wolf's bair. Marth can also use Nair to go toe to toe with Wolf in the air and since it's two sword slashes Marth will more then likely come out on top as he cuts into Wolf's foot. Still Wolf has slightly more mobility and is better at baiting.

On the ground it's pretty even. Marth is overall the safer attacker with more range. Wolf is slightly faster with less range. Wolf has his f-smash as a punisher and it does good damage, but if it's blocked he is wide open. High risk for high reward. Wolf also has his shine and grab for set-ups. Marth's grabs set-up well too. Wolf has lasers, but those aren't a problem really. Wolf is slighty less safe then Marth is though. If Wolf touches Marth's shield when he is on the ground then he will eat an up b. The only move he be safe with on the ground is his d-tilt. Wolf's d-tilt hits on frame 4 and doesn't lag much. The last recovery frame is frame 28. It doesn't have IASA frames, but that's still really good.

It seems like on the stage Marth and Wolf go even, but Wolf's recovery comes back to haunt him when he is knocked off so that would give Marth the slight edge.

I think...55/45 Marth is very accurate.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Nice summary EL. Just one minor correction:

If you say "fsmash leaves Wolf open", I could answer "UpB leaves Marth open". You're not gonna use Marths UpB, if you're not sure to land the hit. It's a punishing move, that has great use, when used out of shield. Fsmsah is the same. A (good) Wolf will use it only if it's sure to hit...

Other than that....I agree.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Wolf's f-smash as a tool to be used after you bait someone is too enticing to pass up IMO.

Once you lure someone in, it's TOO good for catching them off guard and knocking them back out.

 

[toon_marth]

I've found that marth has a nice little way of avoiding that b-side of his. And the best part is, if you're near a ledge you can grab him while he's dashing and throwing him of the stage and he will be unable to recover.

 

[Evenkor]

Wolf's f-smash as a tool to be used after you bait someone is too enticing to pass up IMO.

Once you lure someone in, it's TOO good for catching them off guard and knocking them back out.

What do you mean? I couldn't quite understand you're post...
If you're talking about baiting F-Smash, it's not as easy as that; if you consistently bait F-Smash, people will realize and counter with something else.

 

[Darxmarth23]

What do you mean? I couldn't quite understand you're post...
If you're talking about baiting F-Smash, it's not as easy as that; if you consistently bait F-Smash, people will realize and counter with something else.

He means so you can bait him in and use f-smash. Its too good to pass off.

 

[Evenkor]

He means so you can bait him in and use f-smash. Its too good to pass off.

Sorry. My bad!

 

[Darxmarth23]

Sorry. My bad!

Its all good.

 

[Pr0phetic]

Its all good.

Lmao nice rephrasing. Whats Wolf's current metagame like?

 

[BanjoKazooiePro]

I honestly can't stand playing Wolf players. My attacks always get shutdown by his Fsmash and I can never space correctly against him. His Fsmash makes it so complicated, even if you're doing a nice job with your spacing. His Bair is also really good for racking up damage, and his reflector is nice with those few invincibility frames. I just try to punish his blaster and Fsmash if I see it coming. Grabbing is really helpful in this matchup, and I'm pretty sure you can get the 0% death on him as well. I'd have to say this is 55-45 Marth, however.

 

[Maku]

Yes, it's a very difficult match indeed.
I hate how he can also sweet spot his Forward B..
That pisses me off.
His blaster is really annoying in this match up. I would say space and power shield correctly.