Marths Tier Rank, and etc. other stuff Questions

[ScythedBlade]

Soooo, I've come back to this site in like 5 months, and found out Marth has basically dropped to like ... nothing ...

My main question is why? Is there a lessening amount of Marth players? Is that the cause for less techniques to be discovered?

I've always seen posts about how hard Snake etc. and Metaknight ... but alas, after watching a lot of replays, it seems as if certain players' style decide how well they do against Snake or Metaknight.

In addition, I was wondering if Marth's potential has been reached. As I've seen in tournament games ... it seems like the players aren't "good" enough yet ...

A tip is harder to pull off, but yet, it now seems to kill like crazy ... basically, I've found out that a non-charged FSmash at a tip can kill MK at 76% off FD to the side ...

So what's wrong?

 

[Shaya]

inb4 facepalm spam.

 

[VietGeek]

Marth's rank hasn't dropped much as he's still part of the top 7. He's not top because Meta Knight is a vastly superior character to him (he's vastly superior to everyone, it's just Snake is closer to meeting the gap than others). Snake has a similar situation going on. I would think he's on the decline because MK is now seizing top.

Techniques don't really affect too much unless it's a massive game-changing strategy. Marth, being known as not a really HUGE technical character in Melee, reflects that in Brawl too. All the 'ATs' he has are universal, he really has none unique to him.

Player style is always a factor of the match, and really is the foundation of their gameplan. So yes, it would affect how well they do. For example, an extremely aggressive Marth player would indeed be ***** hard against MK.

As for tippers, yes, they kill. But Fsmash is very unsafe if it's blocked (tipped or not), and landing a tipper on a constantly moving opponent is difficult.

As for his 'decline', I'd say those who played him in Melee because he was 'broken' switched to MK for the same reasons in this game.

@Shaya: No you.

 

[ScythedBlade]

Ahhh I see ... Ehh, I play him because he looks cool and fits in ...

Imho, I don't see how Metaknight is entirely a superior character ... he's very very light ...

Also ... ummm, I don't know if anyone really realized it yet ... but if you mass grab MK on every one of his b moves and aerial attacks, it REALLLy works well ... although sometimes you might get the 3% damage, but already 2 knees are better than the damage ...

I think I've found out that it works for all the b moves ... also his grab range is still pretty **** far ...

 

[Steel]

Mass grab? eh?

 

[3xSwords]

lol what are you talking about? Idk what mass grab is.

Anyway, your not coming to smashboards in 5 months has left you naive. Just read around a bit to see how much has changed since the game came out.

 

[Shök]

Probably the controller port super armor thing.

 

[ScythedBlade]

Lols ... mass grabbing isn't a technical term at all ... just decode it ...

I just meant grab a lot, and I don't think its the controller super armor thingy ... From what I remember, those only go against ties ... aka, if both players grab on the same time, or if one player is grabbing someone and an attack hits ....

However, if you manage to grab at the exact frames that an attack barely hits, the grab will override the attack ... but yeaa ...

5 months is an exaggeration, its more like 1 month, and watching random videos here and now, but like ... the skills of "professional players" haven't improved by that much at all ...

 

[∫unk]

Welcome to Brawl. What else do you want us to say?

A lot of people played Marth in the beginning and his metagame was one of the fastest to develop. Now others are catching up.

 

[Nibbity]

Marth definitely seemed full of rapid and constant change throughout months. If you were out for a month, a lot of what you knew could have been discussed and changed around, in terms of technique and character matchups.

 

[Emblem Lord]

wtf?

Marth is firmly around 5th place and he has been for months. He is by far one of the most consistent characters in terms of tournament results and his rank.

He is a great character, just not amazing which is characteristic of a high tier character.

 

[VietGeek]

He is a great character, just not amazing which is characteristic of a high tier character.

Which is why he's on the top of high tier, yes?

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Anyway, your not coming to smashboards in 5 months has left you naive. Just read around a bit to see how much has changed since the game came out.

this is very true. i think your ignorance of marth's metagame is showing a lot. honestly you really have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Remzi]

I'd say the placing is pretty accurate, though I'd put him at 6th place. I was really surprised to see Falco ahead of him. But yea I've been saying Marth should be at the very top of high tier, and he is, so i have no complaints.

 

[Shaya]

Edit: going to make a seperate topic for this.

 

[Steel]

Uhmm Shaya.. There is no official Tier List yet.. and I can guarantee you D3, falco, and rob will not be top tier, probably not even GW.

 

[Remzi]

S2nd the new list is the official tier list... It was developed by SBR, so that pretty much makes it official list V.1

 

[Steel]

my mistake

and that list fails imo

epicly

 

[BacklashMarth]

Uhmm Shaya.. There is no official Tier List yet.. and I can guarantee you D3, falco, and rob will not be top tier, probably not even GW.

I swear i thought i was the only one thinking that (rob and G&W above marth??? wth?). Then again i havent been one to shed tears over tiers anyway. Btw, wiill some1 plz define what and "official" tier list is? Does this tier list get sent to congress where it is amended multiple times as is put thru the legislative system until it is signed into law by the executive? Forgive me if this question has been answered elsewhere and im just ignorant.

 

[Remzi]

the official tier list is just the thats developed by the SBR (Smash Back Room) which consists of some of the most knowledgable smashers in the world.

I fully expected ROB and G&W to be ahead of Marth. What has me baffled is Falco...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Falco > Marth is justified. They have basically equally good match-up's...some even ones and only about 2 bad ones. Falco just virtually ***** more opponents than Marth.

However, I don't think Marth is an entire tier apart from ROB or Falco (and I don't think he's in the same tier as Pit and the ICs either...)

 

[ScythedBlade]

True true

Imo, Marth's metagame didn't change that much for a month ...

But what I'm saying is probably a bit on the cheap side ... maybe it's like saying, Marth's still good ... IF your reflexes are good enough ...

But ehh ... I don't think I didn't miss out on any new things with the metagame ... Remember, I said I wasn't on forums ... but I've been watching youtube videos ... so ... there goes your point~

 

[DarkRunner00]

Marth metagame hasn't changed much since I joined the Marth Forums.

We've discussed DB. Fair. Nair. Bair. Shieldbreaker.

Emblem Lord's guides and a few topic specific threads have been bumped (maybe slightly updated) but his metagame isn't too much different.

DB when you can (though Down Combo is less used due to the DI factor [which is a slight update to Marth's metagame] and now Up Combo can kill light character at certain % [another slight addition to the metagame]

Fair is the best way to approach. Learn the spacing is really the only tip people can give.

Walk more, Dash less [which is in the matter of the situation] (I don't see any Marth's fox trot when I heard months ago that they would incorporate that into their game)

Dsmash had a little debut and then withdrew from the "Key Moves List"

Back Side of Dair is much easier to pull of a spike (promoting Marth's spike slightly more)

Grab game has been added with (the chain grab at low %, the release -> smash, pivot grab [though I do not see too many pivot grabs])

Fsmash is still the most used smashes; with the exception of Usmash when under a glider or a PK'd Thunder Kid or an Phantasm Spacy!

Utilt is now accepted as a better attack than Usmash with have half as many initiation Frames.

The Dtilt traps are still all we've got.

Shieldbreaker has been and still is a "pressure only" move.

We've discussed specific match ups. Where usually the key is to keep opponents in the air and juggle to rack up damage since we all know Marth is one of Brawls aerial gods.

A few setups have been discovered, but each individual has their own or else Marth truly has no style... which would be false--just look at the video thread every Marth is pretty **** different [some better, some worse]

I'm not sure if Marth's metagame has truly changed... I see the same threads over and over. I see new videos of up and coming Marth's wanting to be critiqued. I see people who critique Marth give the same advice in the threads from EL or JUNK or any other contributors.

Am I missing a key part of Marth's Metagame? Because I don't feel like we've done much pushing foward.

AIM FOR TIP! Since all his attacks begin to kill at a certain % when it's a FRESH attack TIPPED!

 

[Emblem Lord]

lol.

What exactly do you consider huge metagame advancement?

Useless gimmicky AT's like Pit?

No sir.

Everything I have discussed is of great value especially the traps thread since that's the pinnacle of high level play.

Marth saw rapid growth from the time the game first came out.

And even if his metagame didn't grow much it doesn't matter really.

In the end what it comes down to is who has the most effective metagame i.e the best tools and options.

Marth's tools are great but there are characters that have amazing tools.

It's as simple as that.

 

[feardragon64]

Agreed with ^

Chain grabs don't win skilled matches(unless they're ridiculously broken). Neither does any of this wing dashing crap, random AT's, etc.

Traps are what makes Marth good as EL said. "Mind games." That's why you have to play Marth smart. He doesn't have so many guaranteed "combos" as he just has traps that give him more options.

Of course, if they have all of the random AT's AND traps.....well then....they ARE amazing.

 

[DarkRunner00]

lol.

What exactly do you consider huge metagame advancement?

Useless gimmicky AT's like Pit?

No sir.

Everything I have discussed is of great value especially the traps thread since that's the pinnacle of high level play.

Marth saw rapid growth from the time the game first came out.

And even if his metagame didn't grow much it doesn't matter really.

In the end what it comes down to is who has the most effective metagame i.e the best tools and options.

Marth's tools are great but there are characters that have amazing tools.

It's as simple as that.

well, I'm saying that AT's like Boost Smashing (Snake), Infinites (D3), and the ability have a godly approach (MK)--are the best tools... Broken Range (Snake), Outprioritizing (MK), Cheap *** Spot Dodge (ROB), Chain grabs -> Spikes (Falco)... those are tools you are right when saying others have amazing tools.

That is why in the slightly (off imo) tier list and even tournament rankings prove so.

EL maybe your right, my interpretation of a metagame is have an edge like the above. Marth has a standard toolset.

Metaphorically, we were given a mechanical pencil. Where other characters have been able to find things with their mechanical pencil to make it into a staple gun (good middle school years) we have not.

Your absolutely right that those guides are great info. When I started I read them and by god they have helped me. And I can't thank contributors enough. But we haven't really discovered how to make our pencil into a gun.

I'm saying that no matter what, we've had the same tools since the beginning. While others have upgraded--allowing them to perform outstandingly.

I don't want gimmicky AT's that won't do **** to Marth's metagame. But we haven't pushed much forward, I play differently every month weighing attacks differently... but overall it the same **** everytime. 5 months ago.

Metaknight a lot of **** at the beginning as we did. He got infinite cape he's got whorenado he's got Up B... (and godly setups for that)... etc with all other characters above Marth in the crappy official tier list.

Lastly, I'm not trying to put down the Marth boards, we've always pulled together as a community if not even a family. We help each other and we try to grow together. But growing has become stale?

 

[Steel]

well, I'm saying that AT's like Boost Smashing (Snake), Infinites (D3), and the ability have a godly approach (MK)--are the best tools... Broken Range (Snake), Outprioritizing (MK), Cheap *** Spot Dodge (ROB), Chain grabs -> Spikes (Falco)... those are tools you are right when saying others have amazing tools.

That is why in the slightly (off imo) tier list and even tournament rankings prove so.

EL maybe your right, my interpretation of a metagame is have an edge like the above. Marth has a standard toolset.

Metaphorically, we were given a mechanical pencil. Where other characters have been able to find things with their mechanical pencil to make it into a staple gun (good middle school years) we have not.

Your absolutely right that those guides are great info. When I started I read them and by god they have helped me. And I can't thank contributors enough. But we haven't really discovered how to make our pencil into a gun.

I'm saying that no matter what, we've had the same tools since the beginning. While others have upgraded--allowing them to perform outstandingly.

I don't want gimmicky AT's that won't do **** to Marth's metagame. But we haven't pushed much forward, I play differently every month weighing attacks differently... but overall it the same **** everytime. 5 months ago.

Metaknight a lot of **** at the beginning as we did. He got infinite cape he's got whorenado he's got Up B... (and godly setups for that)... etc with all other characters above Marth in the crappy official tier list.

Lastly, I'm not trying to put down the Marth boards, we've always pulled together as a community if not even a family. We help each other and we try to grow together. But growing has become stale?

...Seriously? Brawl isn't a very deep game. You can't expect the metagame to keep growing. People researched characters like crazy when the game first came out, thus everything developed quickly.

In Melee people weren't looking for advanced techniques or any of that nonsense when the game first came out, that's why it took so long for that metagame to develop.

Don't expect much else to happen, we've researched marth's metagame to the fullest.. now it's a matter of who is the better player and can put Marth's tools to work in the best way possible.

 

[Pierce7d]

Eh, I think we still have a bit more developing to go, but we're going to have to actually work now to get better, since as pointed out, Marth metagame is beginning to cap. Of course, I tend to win, so I'm not too worried. Plus, I can always get better with spacing. Do you land that tipper Fsmash every time MK comes in for a Glide Attack? I didn't think so.

 

[DarkRunner00]

...Seriously? Brawl isn't a very deep game. You can't expect the metagame to keep growing. People researched characters like crazy when the game first came out, thus everything developed quickly.

In Melee people weren't looking for advanced techniques or any of that nonsense when the game first came out, that's why it took so long for that metagame to develop.

Don't expect much else to happen, we've researched marth's metagame to the fullest.. now it's a matter of who is the better player and can put Marth's tools to work in the best way possible.

'nuff said.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You put too much stock in metagame development.

Wanna know who developed the least?

Metaknight.

Think about it.

 

[Pierce7d]

You put too much stock in metagame development.

Wanna know who developed the least?

Metaknight.

Think about it.

Eh, I dunno . . . M2k plays MK different from everyone else I've played, emphasizing on more defensive options, and using Nair and Dair much better.

Of course, I must agree when I try and think of someone who has evolved less than him . . .

 

[DarkRunner00]

Will I sound ignorant if I bring up low tier characters like, PKMN Trainer? Ike?

in any case, that's not the point.

I was trying to answer the host's question about the progression with Marth's metagame. I read a reply about it not growing and I felt like I should elaborate, because it seemed true and I wanted evidence to support such a broad statement.

I continued the discussion because I felt like maybe I was wrong. but indeed Marth's game is nearly capped and I as a Marth player will just have to get better as a player, since I don't need to learn too much more. It's all about application now.

Maybe I do put a lot of weight on metagame development originally, but Steel2nd said it. The rush of Brawl's development was at the beginning where as Melee's was much later. Maybe I was wrong to hope that in a couple of months a new thing would be found, maybe I was a bit Naive.

It's also the fact that a tier list has already be published and it hasn't even been a year. Almost half, and maybe not even. (I'm not thinking atm, but it's around half a year)

So... yeah. Dan, Steel2nd and EL i betcha all believe its all about the players now and how good they can use what we've (you've) discovered with Marth's ability to combat others.

 

[Emblem Lord]

What makes characters good is character design. Very rarely is an AT powerful enough to give a significant boost to a character's metagame.

DDD's CG is character design.

Snake's range is character design. Marth outranges on him in every move except the second hit of his f-tilt BTW.

ROB's spot-dodge is character design.

And you know what?

Marth has beastly character design too. He simply has one flaw in his design which holds him back. No spammable kill moves that are safe on block.

He doesn't have that. If he did he would easily be third, without a doubt and his match-ups would be at least 1 more point in his favor.

But as it stands Marth is no weakling.

He is one of the most consistent characters in terms of tournament results and his match-ups.

Marth community...I did not write those guides so you could become complacent and then b*tch about Marth's metagame later. I made them to get the wheels turning in your heads so you can THINK!!!!!

Trust your own data and your research.

We know Marth's flaws and his strengths. Accept them for what they are. He is a strong character and there are some that are stronger still.

Nothing is going to change that.

 

[feardragon64]

Eh, I think we still have a bit more developing to go, but we're going to have to actually work now to get better

This^

I made them to get the wheels turning in your heads so you can THINK!!!!!

And this^

Granted I agree I think there are a few things left to be discovered, they won't be anything that changes the framework of how we play(the character doesn't change as EL basically pointed out).

The place where I see actual development is going through the scenarios ahead of time and determining the best available options. If something you didn't expect happens, take note of it and draw out a scenario for it. Basically, theorize a "perfectly played game" from your part in different scenarios. Then it becomes a matter of reacting, predicting, as well as some manipulation. In theory, if you can play a perfect game, you've won, right? Works in real life fighting, why not here?

Course I could be wrong...

 

[DarkRunner00]

It's funny, we wrote this at the same time so we couldn't read these two posts.

You're right.

One thing, I'm not b*tching about anything. (I'm sure that that statement is directed at me, because anyone else usually downs Marth only as a joke.

I was stating what I knew. And I'm sorry if I annoyed people.

 

[Emblem Lord]

It wasn't at you. It was more at the atmosphere of the thread.

Seems like it's implying that Marth is weak.

Everyone needs to realize that it's already been proven that Marth is good.

Some of us might not like his placing, but his placing doesn't matter. I personally think he is around 5th, but regardless of any particular placing, Marth's abilities will remain the same. He is the same character no matter where he is.

He is high tier and he is a strong character.

There is nothing else to really think about.

 

[BacklashMarth]

I completely concour with everything EL has said so far. Personally, whenever i hear sumbody say "i am/i was waiting for another AT or special sumthing to get discovered to do so-andoso to marths metagame i hear it as this: "im waiting for a new version of brawl to come out where marth is a little bit broken". Its like they want the programmers to reprogram the game just because the odds arent in their favor. And granted, i do subscribe to the theory that some characters have some really broken advantages, but that doesnt mean you are doomed to fail against certain characters. Take what u know and get creative, try new things, play smart, and always think. When life gives u lemons, shove em in the programmers eyes. Dont sit there sucking on them expecting them to turn into oranges.

 

[LegionBrawler]

I personally don't think a characters potential can ever reach its max there will always be room to improve. I don't think theres a lack of Marth players I just think theres a lack of Marth players who advance marth most of them read guides and stick to them like glue =\

 

[bobson]

DDD's CG is character design.

I have a hard time believing that Masahiro "Everyone's a winner!" Sakurai deliberately designed Dedede to be able to win by literally standing in one spot and using the same move over and over. Chaingrabs to the end of the stage, perhaps, but standing/wall infinites?

 

[phi1ny3]

I completely concour with everything EL has said so far. Personally, whenever i hear sumbody say "i am/i was waiting for another AT or special sumthing to get discovered to do so-andoso to marths metagame i hear it as this: "im waiting for a new version of brawl to come out where marth is a little bit broken". Its like they want the programmers to reprogram the game just because the odds arent in their favor. And granted, i do subscribe to the theory that some characters have some really broken advantages, but that doesnt mean you are doomed to fail against certain characters. Take what u know and get creative, try new things, play smart, and always think. When life gives u lemons, shove em in the programmers eyes. Dont sit there sucking on them expecting them to turn into oranges.

I like lemons moar than oranges!

With that said, I would like to throw in my 2 cents. Marth has always had a solid, well hearsed and playable metagame. If I wanted a completely safe/ easy win that didn't require a struggle, I wouldn't have mained Marth or Lucario. But I did, because the technical and challenging stretches of these characters enthrall me. While there are broken advantages, Marth has the right handling that a truly skilled player needs to leap over that hurdle. Now time to put up the anti-flame shield: I actually like Brawl, and the reason why is despite the lack of AT compared to Melee, it gets the grit down on who is the better player by ethic and a skilled mindset, rather than a mere memorization of combos. If you wanted a "running through the motions" fighter, Street Fighter is more like it, Brawl isn't the place. Marth among the Brawl fighters has an excellent metagame that allows for boggling mindplay. Everyone else always says "beware of Marth's tip", yet many fall prey to it? Why? Not because of blindly mashing up the GC controller till it looks like hamburger meat. It's because a good Marth player is distinctive for using his/her mind to set up the sucker to be stabbed. And what conditions a good marth player? Challenges (or if we're keeping up metaphorically, lemons) of upholding a good game despite flaws, and not finding an easy loophole (I guess these are the oranges), or some cheap AT. EL and other good contributors have given great tools for getting Marth players the resources needed to condition, so use them. And another thing. Guides will never truly replace gaming experience. They are a great source, but the game will stagnate unless you apply and discover.