~Marth's Match Ups~

[Blacknight99923]

perhaps its just me then

 

[Pierce7d]

Link and Zelda are both 7:3 Marth
Snake is even. I actually think it's Marth advantage, but for now I'll call it even.

 

[Shaya]

Not sure about Marth v Link being 7:3.

 

[Pr0phetic]

I'll start to get to work this weekend when I'm free. I believe Marth vs Link is 7:3, and Snake even aswell.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I don't think Link marth is 7:3 tbh i feel this MU is really stage dependant and on BF its 7:3 which is our CP and on frigate its 9-1 but otherwise i think its about 6-4 although the firgate thing pretty much gives it to us

 

[Pr0phetic]

I play Link's extensively, once Marth gets pass Link's spam range, we can PS Zair spam, and dominate him. Plus, his recovery is... fail.

 

[clowsui]

i feel at this point it'd be good to have a rediscussion of certain matchups ESPECIALLY since the MBR fell apart

the metagame has advanced enough to the point where we need to reconsider diddy, falco in particular...wario too since he fell on the tier list. a reassessment of our matchup vs. ROB/MK/Snake/Peach is also necessary seeing as how our top players have tons of trouble w/ the first one, MK because MBR discussion was a few months ago, Snake because mid level players seem to have a lot of trouble with this, and Peach because it'd be a good sign of support for Mr-R

 

[Mr-R]

haha thanks that would be great

 

[Shaya]

Get hit by Peach?

Jab oos beats their retreating float
awww yeaaah

 

[Player-3]

is that what you do?

what about when you're on the ledge and they float and fair you after you land

 

[Saki-]

Well against the Peach in my area, jab usually out does anything she has going when it come's to aggression.
Just make sure you're keeping up pressure, standing there waiting for her has usually made it harder for me to win.

 

[Rad]

I seem to recall the only competitive talk in the falcon discussion being "swing your sword, 75-25." I probably remember wrong, but all I took out of that thread is that Marth is manlier than falcon. The falcon boards seem to think it's at least 10 points better for them (from what I can tell). Idk, that match-up should probably be discussed too.

 

[Shaya]

The match up is terrible for falcon.

Marth mutilates bottom tiers with dtilt and fair.
Falcon is one of the ones who get overly mutilated by dtilt.

 

[Remzi]

Marth vs Link is not 7:3...

Link is actually very versatile on stage. His mixup game is awesome, especially when you throw in all the various ways he can use his bombs. Zair completely outranges us and the hitbox comes out fast. If Link retreats it, it is completely safe on shield regardless of whether or not you PS it (Marth can get good positioning by shielding one, but he won't directly be able to punish). Fsmash is another awesome spacing tool believe it or not, the range on it is crazy good.

He has jab locks that can be setup by simply getting hit by a bomb from the top and those do devastating damage and often lead to kills. Arrow cancelling after aerials or a bomb pluck is good for surprise damage and self-cover.

He does ok landing kills, usually relying on projectiles for a setup or through edge guarding. Speaking of which, his edge-guarding game is actually pretty awesome. All three projectiles work very well against recovering opponents, especially bombs. Nair and Dair **** recovering opponents.

His recovery is a bit underrated. Good DI + Bomb Pluck = Survival almost all the time. If link gets hit once while trying to recover, he can use a bomb recovery (assuming you plucked one after you DI'd and momentum canceled.

I can't see it being 7:3...

 

[Saki-]

Marth vs Link is not 7:3...

Link is actually very versatile on stage. His mixup game is awesome, especially when you throw in all the various ways he can use his bombs. Zair completely outranges us and the hitbox comes out fast. If Link retreats it, it is completely safe on shield regardless of whether or not you PS it (Marth can get good positioning by shielding one, but he won't directly be able to punish). Fsmash is another awesome spacing tool believe it or not, the range on it is crazy good.

Stick with Steel's zoning rule. If you give him enough space then he'll abuse it, so just stay close. Plus we could always jump over it's hitbox.

He has jab locks that can be setup by simply getting hit by a bomb from the top and those do devastating damage and often lead to kills. Arrow cancelling after aerials or a bomb pluck is good for surprise damage and self-cover.

Jab locks don't work offline. : P we have DS.

Arrow cancelling is slow and predictable enough for us to powershield it.

He does ok landing kills, usually relying on projectiles for a setup or through edge guarding. Speaking of which, his edge-guarding game is actually pretty awesome. All three projectiles work very well against recovering opponents, especially bombs. Nair and Dair **** recovering opponents.

I find it really hard to get hit with a fsmash by Link, much less get killed by it. But the offstage thing usually is a problem regardless of matchup. :/

His recovery is a bit underrated. Good DI + Bomb Pluck = Survival almost all the time. If link gets hit once while trying to recover, he can use a bomb recovery (assuming you plucked one after you DI'd and momentum canceled.

I can't see it being 7:3...

Link has to have one of the best DI's in the game lol.

Still, even without DI, if we land a fair it doesn't matter if the bomb blows up to save him or not. We can footstool him, or fair him right after. Like Snake's c4 recovery.

 

[Steel]

i cant see link being worse than 65/35

 

[P. O. F.]

yay for discussing new match ups finally. I would really like to see Meta, Wario, Snake, and DDD rewritten/discussed.

 

[C.J.]

Realistically, all we have over Link is speed and recovery. He's heavier, has better range (mostly), and have projectiles. Our gimping of him is really only going to happen at lower percents, after that he can DI hard enough up he should be able to recover. Link has somewhat reliable jab lock set-ups. (BTW, Kola, do you know what jab locks are? DS doesn't help... at all. It's like Falco's laser lock, with jabs.) And at the end of one, he gets a free fsmash at the edge. Like Bengals said zair is good. Once he hits you out, be prepared to get bombarded w/ various projectiles and zair before you get back in again. Overall, at best it's 60-40 Marth, at worst 65-35.

 

[Pr0phetic]

Dash --> Shield ***** Zair... It doesn't have too much effect on this mu. I'd say 65-35 is good, a potential 7:3 though just from experience (but have I played the best Link? no lol)

 

[Blacknight99923]

the only reason this match up is better for us then 60-40 is stages that link can't do jack on like Frigate orphean or some other recovery based cp stage

 

[Shaya]

Zair...
Powershield it for win?
When it auto cancels, has two hits, can be done out of an air dodge, and has similar shield safety than marths aerials in those conditions?
Links fast fall speed is... second? in the game I think.

 

[Megavitamins]

MR r is there a vid of you fighting against a peach?

I think I can help you, it's personally one of my fave match ups lol

 

[P. O. F.]

Peach is just-Camp fair, f tilt her jump cancel, fair her when she goes below the stage, and thats it. lol.

Don't approach fair....stay still or fade away fair.

 

[Mr-R]

Peach is just-Camp fair, f tilt her jump cancel, fair her when she goes below the stage, and thats it. lol.

Don't approach fair....stay still or fade away fair.

so what do u do when shes spamming turnips ?

and sorry there aren't any matches between me and a peach player on youtube

 

[Conviction]

Zair...
Powershield it for win?
When it auto cancels, has two hits, can be done out of an air dodge, and has similar shield safety than marths aerials in those conditions?
Links fast fall speed is... second? in the game I think.

He is third.

 

[P. O. F.]

so what do u do when shes spamming turnips ?

The idea of peach is to be close enough where they won't pluck that trash. You basically want to camp her right in front of her and bait them into making the first move. Never approach her with fair when she is not trying to get back to the stage. Retreating and stationary SH fairs wreck her. I stay away from nair in this match up but uair, bair, fair, and sometimes dair are key. D tilt and DB on stage are incredible too.

If she float cancels and tries to approach you with that f tilt it.

 

[Mr-R]

Thanks but how can you stay close to peach when ur not suppose to approach with fair? approaching with shield does not work, peach has plenty of safe options agaisnt that :o

 

[P. O. F.]

Thanks but how can you stay close to peach when ur not suppose to approach with fair? approaching with shield does not work, peach has plenty of safe options agaisnt that :o

Stay a little further than a tipper fair away. That's what I do.

In a sense, make her make the first move.

 

[Mr-R]

ok sounds good thanks ^^
any other things i should know regarding the peach match up ?*aghum where is neo*

 

[Neon X]

Just Use weaving fairs. You can mix It up with a weaves fair then use your second jump to trip her Timing with the vegetables. Peach mains tend to shield a lot before there glide tosses. If you manage to hit her with a reverse Shieldbreaker and deplete her Shield just spam dancing blade and mix it up with Dtilt. Peach also likes to glide toss in to you and after the vegetable hits you they tend to grab you or dtilt you. It's not a bad idea to read her movements and throw in some Counters( In an unpredictable manner) from time to time. That way you can hit her while she comes in to grab you. At all costs avoid rolling too much in this MU. Specially to dodge vegetables. Good Peaches Tech follow you into there side B. They can pull a nice bum kiss combo on you. If you're gonna try and Gimp there recovery first try and DB1 to stall yourself in air to see if she uses Toad.(lots of peaches read a gimp and rely on toad for a safer comeback to the fray. But always remember this, Nair ***** Peach in the air. Try confusing her when edgeguarding with a RARed Nair and it's almost guaranteed she will lose her timing and she will get hit with the backside of Nair. Which everybody Knows has a good trajectory to kill. Well with that in mind my last words are, if you poke her shield Spam dancing Blade and also mix it up and do DB1 to grab.

 

[Shaya]

weaving fairs dont work against peach...
her floating + her fair outranging us means we get punished for it nearly everytime.

 

[clowsui]

nair ftilt jab are the way to go vs peach

nair to strike at peach if she's trying to hit us or if she's just floating around (ff if you think she's going to try and hit at you -> shield -> db 1 ftw)

ftilt and jab to swipe at her floats at different ranges

when she's at the ledge pressure her with the ff nair + dtilt trap and mix up w/ slow fall fair or fast fall fair. land empty sometimes to beat roll or shield

 

[Megavitamins]

Thanks but how can you stay close to peach when ur not suppose to approach with fair? approaching with shield does not work, peach has plenty of safe options agaisnt that :o

Approach from the ground, or... just camp her -_-

Clowsui, that's exactly what I think. Jab & f-tilt > pch

 

[Neon X]

weaving fairs dont work against peach...
her floating + her fair outranging us means we get punished for it nearly everytime.

They work as long as you have higher ground than her. As long as she's on the floor picking her little veggies or trying to grab you just try and weave a bit and see for your self. Remember even though she outranges Marth's Fair he still has the speed advantage. It works as long as you dont use them predictably and alternate your stances. Also when you land from a Fair its good to throw in ftilts. Sometimes when you land she comes in and Ftilt is a wall for her unless she throws the veggies before going in close range. As many have said here Jab and Nair are great in this MU. Aslo DB1 to grab works marvelously against Peach. You can grab her almost every time cause they're afraid of the full DB forward combo and shield.

 

[Megavitamins]

... Peach can float backwards and fair cuz marth's forward air has some lag, if you whif you get punished. Why the **** would they shield if they can just manually dodge >_>

 

[Neon X]

I guess the Peach mains i brawl dont space right then :S Well still Ftilt ***** Peach. Dancing Blade ***** her too. Also if she's expecting you to fair and tries to outrange you just play with her mind and Counter. Next time she wont be so sure about Outranging your fair or getting hit by a counter. As i always say, be spontaneous. People are vulnerable to the things they least expect. Also if she's in the air try to get below her and Juggle her with Auto cancelled Uairs and Reversed Fairs. When she falls just exploit her openings. DB1 to see if she shields then do the same and predict and grab her or just grab her and throw to see what she does. The key here is by no means LETTING HER SPAM and GLIDETOSS those **** Vegetables.

 

[Megavitamins]

If your FORWARD AIR is outranged, why will counter hit? -_-

Dancing blade is risky, you need to go in close. IMO this MU is just about not getting hit & abusing the fact that your ground > her approaches lol

Turnips suck balls. Glide tossing is gimicky. Force them to approach you, then ****.

 

[Neon X]

If your FORWARD AIR is outranged, why will counter hit? -_-

Dancing blade is risky, you need to go in close. IMO this MU is just about not getting hit & abusing the fact that your ground > her approaches lol

Turnips suck balls. Glide tossing is gimicky. Force them to approach you, then ****.

We finally got to an agreement. I like how that sounds. Also Counter will give the Peach the infamous Stunt Jacket. Remember if you counter a hitbox that's not on the opponents body(Windboxes) It gives the stunt jacket effect. You can pull some nice things Afterwards and some sexy grab releases. Well in General with this MU just feel like Snake feels when he is playing MARF You're the King of the floor.

 

[Megavitamins]

What? I didn't understand a word you said. We didn't agree, all my stuff contradicts yours.

 

[Neon X]

Well obviously i agree on dancing blade and ground part. But im still disagreeing on the fair issue. I know peach outranges Fair but there are other options to play with the Peach's mind.