Marth's Match Up Index

[Shaya]

Well, about time this happened. Most of our match ups are from late 2008 without much in terms of updating.
While I have been pretty aware of match up opinion changes over time, they have become somewhat word-of-mouth only. This primarily being about our high tier focus. For the most part our lower/mid tier match ups have remained somewhat constant in what the ratio is stated, even whilst the match up has developed over time.

Anyway, this will be the index thread I suppose. For the match up re-discussions themselves I would probably prefer someone starting it themselves. I know Rukkiko will be helpful here, as have others who said they would like to (Albert, Bengalz?, Divine?, Junk even?).

At the moment I want to get peoples (the good players ) ideas of ratios. I want this to be a pretty serious discussion at this point so I will be moderation-heavy. One liners are not acceptable. Things may need to get properly re-discussed, especially match ups that have a lot of contention on what the ratio truly is (as of late thats been ICs, DK, Diddy). But what determines what needs to be discussed is the level of interest gained here.

I hope you guys like the table format Ive done for this! MU ratios I have when you highlight a character image is not definite.

<table id="mu_tablemenu" class="tborder" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="2" border="0" width="60%" align="center">
<tr>
<td class="alt1" width="45%" colspan="3"><strong>Tier List Order</strong>
<table cellpadding="10" cellspacing="0" border="0"><tr><td>TOP
<a href="#mu_metaknight"><img src="http://www.smashboards.com/images/char/metaknight.png" border="0" title="Meta Knight - 40:60" width="20" height="20"></a></td></tr></table><table cellpadding="10" cellspacing="0" border="0"><tr><td>HIGH
<a href="#mu_snake"><img src="images/char/snake.png" border="0" alt="" title="Snake - 55:45" width="20" height="20"></a> <a href="#mu_diddy"><img src="images/char/diddy.png" border="0" alt="" title="Diddy Kong - 55:45" width="20" height="20"></a> <a href="#mu_falco"><img src="images/char/falco.png" border="0" alt="" title="Falco - 55:45" width="20" height="20"></a> <a href="#mu_climbers"><img src="images/char/popo.png" border="0" alt="" title="Ice Climbers - 50:50" width="20" height="20"></a> <a href="#mu_marth"><img src="images/char/marth.png" border="0" alt="" title="Marth - 50:50" width="20" height="20"></a> <a href="#mu_wario"><img src="images/char/wariocl.png" border="0" alt="" title="Wario - 60:40" width="20" height="20"></a>
<a href="#mu_dedede"><img src="images/char/dedede.png" border="0" alt="" title="King Dedede - 45:55" width="20" height="20"></a> <a href="#mu_pikachu"><img src="images/char/pikachu.png" border="0" alt="" title="Pikachu - 65:35" width="20" height="20"></a> <a href="#mu_olimar"><img src="images/char/olimar.png" border="0" alt="" title="Olimar - 60:40" width="20" height="20"></a> <a href="#mu_lucario"><img src="images/char/lucario.png" border="0" alt="" title="Lucario - 60:40" width="20" height="20"></a> <a href="#mu_gw"><img src="images/char/gw.png" border="0" alt="" title="Mr. Game &amp; Watch - 65:35" width="20" height="20"></a></td></tr></table><table cellpadding="10" cellspacing="0" border="0"><tr><td>Middle
<a href="#mu_pit"><img src="images/char/pit.png" border="0" alt="" title="Pit - 60:40" width="20" height="20"></a> <a href="#mu_toonlink"><img src="images/char/toonlink.png" border="0" alt="" title="Toon Link - 60:40" width="20" height="20"></a> <a href="#mu_zerosuit"><img src="images/char/zerosuitsamus.png" border="0" alt="" title="Zero Suit Samus - 60:40" width="20" height="20"></a> <a href="#mu_kirby"><img src="images/char/kirby.png" border="0" alt="" title="Kirby - 60:40" width="20" height="20"></a> <a href="#mu_rob"><img src="images/char/rob.png" border="0" alt="" title="R.O.B. - 50:50" width="20" height="20"></a>
<a href="#mu_donkeykong"><img src="images/char/dk.png" border="0" alt="" title="Donkey Kong - 50:50" width="20" height="20"></a> <a href="#mu_peach"><img src="images/char/peach.png" border="0" alt="" title="Peach - 60:40" width="20" height="20"></a> <a href="#mu_fox"><img src="images/char/fox.png" border="0" alt="" title="Fox - 60:40" width="20" height="20"></a> <a href="#mu_luigi"><img src="images/char/luigi.png" border="0" alt="" title="Luigi - 65:35" width="20" height="20"></a> <a href="#mu_wolf"><img src="images/char/wolf.png" border="0" alt="" title="Wolf - 55:45" width="20" height="20"></a>
<a href="#mu_sheik"><img src="images/char/shiek.png" border="0" alt="" title="Sheik - 60:40" width="20" height="20"></a> <a href="#mu_trainer"><img src="images/char/pt.png" border="0" alt="" title="Pokémon Trainer - 70:30" width="20" height="20"></a> <a href="#mu_sonic"><img src="images/char/sonic.png" border="0" alt="" title="Sonic - 65:35" width="20" height="20"></a> <a href="#mu_ness"><img src="images/char/ness.png" border="0" alt="" title="Ness - 70:30" width="20" height="20"></a> <a href="#mu_bowser"><img src="images/char/bowser.png" border="0" alt="" title="Bowser - 65:35" width="20" height="20"></a></td></tr></table><table cellpadding="10" cellspacing="0" border="0"><tr><td>Low
<a href="#mu_lucas"><img src="images/char/lucas.png" border="0" alt="" title="Lucas - 70:30" width="20" height="20"></a> <a href="#mu_ike"><img src="images/char/ike.png" border="0" alt="" title="Ike - 65:35" width="20" height="20"></a> <a href="#mu_yoshi"><img src="images/char/yoshi.png" border="0" alt="" title="Yoshi - 65:35" width="20" height="20"></a> <a href="#mu_mario"><img src="images/char/mario.png" border="0" alt="" title="Mario - 65:35" width="20" height="20"></a> <a href="#mu_falcon"><img src="images/char/falcon.png" border="0" alt="" title="Captain Falcon - 70:30" width="20" height="20"></a> <a href="#mu_samus"><img src="images/char/samus.png" border="0" alt="" title="Samus - 65:35" width="20" height="20"></a> <a href="#mu_jiggly"><img src="images/char/jigglypuff.png" border="0" alt="" title="Jigglypuff - 70:30" width="20" height="20"></a>
<a href="#mu_zelda"><img src="images/char/zelda.png" border="0" alt="" title="Zelda - 70:30" width="20" height="20"></a> <a href="#mu_link"><img src="images/char/link.png" border="0" alt="" title="Link - 65:35" width="20" height="20"></a> <a href="#mu_ganondorf"><img src="images/char/ganondorf.png" border="0" alt="" title="Ganondorf - 80:20" width="20" height="20"></a></td></tr></table></td>
<td style="font-size:10pt; padding-top:1px" colspan="3"></td>
<td class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap" width="45%" valign="top"><strong>Difficulty Order</strong>
<table cellpadding="10" cellspacing="0" border="0"><tr><td>Disadvantage
<a href="#mu_metaknight"><img src="http://www.smashboards.com/images/char/metaknight.png" border="0" title="Meta Knight" width="20" height="20"></a></td></tr></table><table cellpadding="10" cellspacing="0" border="0"><tr><td>Even
<a href="#mu_dedede"><img src="images/char/dedede.png" border="0" alt="" title="King Dedede" width="20" height="20"></a><br><a href="#mu_marth"><img src="images/char/marth.png" border="0" alt="" title="Marth" width="20" height="20"></a><br><a href="#mu_snake"><img src="images/char/snake.png" border="0" alt="" title="Snake" width="20" height="20"></a></td></tr></table><table cellpadding="10" cellspacing="0" border="0"><tr><td>Advantage
<img src="images/char/lucario.png" border="0" alt="" title="Lucario" width="20" height="20"></td></tr></table><table cellpadding="10" cellspacing="0" border="0"><tr><td>Large Advantage
<img src="images/char/ganondorf.png" border="0" alt="" title="Ganondorf" width="20" height="20"></td></tr></table><table cellpadding="10" cellspacing="0" border="0"><tr><td>Limbo
<img src="images/char/diddy.png" border="0" alt="" title="Diddy Kong" width="20" height="20"> <a href="#mu_peach"><img src="images/char/peach.png" border="0" alt="" title="Peach - 60:40" width="20" height="20"></a></td></tr></table></td>
</tr>
</table>

<table id="mu_metaknight" class="tborder" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="2" border="0" width="90%" align="center"><tr><td class="alt1" width="95%" colspan="3"> Meta Knight 40:60 (Disadvantage)<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr><tr><td class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap" width="95%" valign="top">Recent Discussion
<hr size="1" style="color:; background-color:" />blah blah info
<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr></table>
<table id="mu_snake" class="tborder" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="2" border="0" width="90%" align="center"><tr><td class="alt1" width="95%" colspan="3"> Snake 55:45 (Slight Advantage)<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr><tr><td class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap" width="95%" valign="top">Original Discussion
<hr size="1" style="color:; background-color:" />blah blah info
<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr></table>
<table id="mu_diddy" class="tborder" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="2" border="0" width="90%" align="center"><tr><td class="alt1" width="95%" colspan="3"> Diddy Kong (???)<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr><tr><td class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap" width="95%" valign="top">Original Discussion
<hr size="1" style="color:; background-color:" />blah blah info
<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr></table>
<table style="display: none" id="mu_falco" class="tborder" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="2" border="0" width="90%" align="center"><tr><td class="alt1" width="95%" colspan="3"> Falco 55:45 (Slight Advantage)<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr><tr><td class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap" width="95%" valign="top">Links n stuff
<hr size="1" style="color:; background-color:" />blah blah info
<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr></table>
<table style="display: none" id="mu_climbers" class="tborder" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="2" border="0" width="90%" align="center"><tr><td class="alt1" width="95%" colspan="3"> Ice Climbers (???)<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr><tr><td class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap" width="95%" valign="top">Links n stuff
<hr size="1" style="color:; background-color:" />blah blah info
<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr></table>
<table style="display" id="mu_marth" class="tborder" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="2" border="0" width="90%" align="center"><tr><td class="alt1" width="95%" colspan="3"> Marth 50:50 (Even)<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr><tr><td class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap" width="95%" valign="top">Links n stuff
<hr size="1" style="color:; background-color:" />blah blah info
<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr></table>
<table style="display: none" id="mu_wario" class="tborder" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="2" border="0" width="90%" align="center"><tr><td class="alt1" width="95%" colspan="3"> Wario (???)<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr><tr><td class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap" width="95%" valign="top">Links n stuff
<hr size="1" style="color:; background-color:" />blah blah info
<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr></table>
<table style="display" id="mu_dedede" class="tborder" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="2" border="0" width="90%" align="center"><tr><td class="alt1" width="95%" colspan="3"> King Dedede 45:55 (Slight Disadvantage)<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr><tr><td class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap" width="95%" valign="top">Links n stuff
<hr size="1" style="color:; background-color:" />blah blah info
<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr></table>
<table style="display: none" id="mu_pikachu" class="tborder" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="2" border="0" width="90%" align="center"><tr><td class="alt1" width="95%" colspan="3"> Pikachu (???)<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr><tr><td class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap" width="95%" valign="top">Links n stuff
<hr size="1" style="color:; background-color:" />blah blah info
<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr></table>
<table style="display: none" id="mu_olimar" class="tborder" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="2" border="0" width="90%" align="center"><tr><td class="alt1" width="95%" colspan="3"> Olimar (???)<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr><tr><td class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap" width="95%" valign="top">Links n stuff
<hr size="1" style="color:; background-color:" />blah blah info
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<table style="display: none" id="mu_lucario" class="tborder" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="2" border="0" width="90%" align="center"><tr><td class="alt1" width="95%" colspan="3"> Lucario (???)<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr><tr><td class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap" width="95%" valign="top">Links n stuff
<hr size="1" style="color:; background-color:" />blah blah info
<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr></table>
<table style="display: none" id="mu_gw" class="tborder" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="2" border="0" width="90%" align="center"><tr><td class="alt1" width="95%" colspan="3"> Mr. Game & Watch (???)<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr><tr><td class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap" width="95%" valign="top">Links n stuff
<hr size="1" style="color:; background-color:" />blah blah info
<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr></table>
<table style="display: none" id="mu_pit" class="tborder" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="2" border="0" width="90%" align="center"><tr><td class="alt1" width="95%" colspan="3"> Pit (???)<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr><tr><td class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap" width="95%" valign="top">Links n stuff
<hr size="1" style="color:; background-color:" />blah blah info
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<table style="display: none" id="mu_toonlink" class="tborder" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="2" border="0" width="90%" align="center"><tr><td class="alt1" width="95%" colspan="3"> Toon Link (???)<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr><tr><td class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap" width="95%" valign="top">Links n stuff
<hr size="1" style="color:; background-color:" />blah blah info
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<table style="display: none" id="mu_zerosuit" class="tborder" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="2" border="0" width="90%" align="center"><tr><td class="alt1" width="95%" colspan="3"> Zero Suit Samus (???)<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr><tr><td class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap" width="95%" valign="top">Links n stuff
<hr size="1" style="color:; background-color:" />blah blah info
<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr></table>
<table style="display: none" id="mu_kirby" class="tborder" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="2" border="0" width="90%" align="center"><tr><td class="alt1" width="95%" colspan="3"> Kirby (???)<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr><tr><td class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap" width="95%" valign="top">Links n stuff
<hr size="1" style="color:; background-color:" />blah blah info
<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr></table>
<table style="display: none" id="mu_rob" class="tborder" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="2" border="0" width="90%" align="center"><tr><td class="alt1" width="95%" colspan="3"> R.O.B. (???)<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr><tr><td class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap" width="95%" valign="top">Links n stuff
<hr size="1" style="color:; background-color:" />blah blah info
<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr></table>
<table style="display: none" id="mu_donkeykong" class="tborder" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="2" border="0" width="90%" align="center"><tr><td class="alt1" width="95%" colspan="3"> Donkey Kong (???)<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr><tr><td class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap" width="95%" valign="top">Links n stuff
<hr size="1" style="color:; background-color:" />blah blah info
<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr></table>
<table style="display" id="mu_peach" class="tborder" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="2" border="0" width="90%" align="center"><tr><td class="alt1" width="95%" colspan="3"> Peach (???)<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr><tr><td class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap" width="95%" valign="top">Links n stuff
<hr size="1" style="color:; background-color:" />Currently discussing at: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=275515
<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr></table>
<table style="display: none" id="mu_fox" class="tborder" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="2" border="0" width="90%" align="center"><tr><td class="alt1" width="95%" colspan="3"> Fox (???)<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr><tr><td class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap" width="95%" valign="top">Links n stuff
<hr size="1" style="color:; background-color:" />blah blah info
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<table style="display: none" id="mu_luigi" class="tborder" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="2" border="0" width="90%" align="center"><tr><td class="alt1" width="95%" colspan="3"> Luigi (???)<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr><tr><td class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap" width="95%" valign="top">Links n stuff
<hr size="1" style="color:; background-color:" />blah blah info
<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr></table>
<table style="display: none" id="mu_wolf" class="tborder" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="2" border="0" width="90%" align="center"><tr><td class="alt1" width="95%" colspan="3"> Wolf (???)<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr><tr><td class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap" width="95%" valign="top">Links n stuff
<hr size="1" style="color:; background-color:" />blah blah info
<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr></table>
<table style="display: none" id="mu_sheik" class="tborder" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="2" border="0" width="90%" align="center"><tr><td class="alt1" width="95%" colspan="3">:shiek: Sheik (???)<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr><tr><td class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap" width="95%" valign="top">Links n stuff
<hr size="1" style="color:; background-color:" />blah blah info
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<table style="display: none" id="mu_trainer" class="tborder" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="2" border="0" width="90%" align="center"><tr><td class="alt1" width="95%" colspan="3"> Pokémon Trainer (???)<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr><tr><td class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap" width="95%" valign="top">Links n stuff
<hr size="1" style="color:; background-color:" />blah blah info
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<table style="display: none" id="mu_sonic" class="tborder" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="2" border="0" width="90%" align="center"><tr><td class="alt1" width="95%" colspan="3"> Sonic (???)<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr><tr><td class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap" width="95%" valign="top">Links n stuff
<hr size="1" style="color:; background-color:" />blah blah info
<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr></table>
<table style="display: none" id="mu_ness" class="tborder" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="2" border="0" width="90%" align="center"><tr><td class="alt1" width="95%" colspan="3"> Ness (???)<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr><tr><td class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap" width="95%" valign="top">Links n stuff
<hr size="1" style="color:; background-color:" />blah blah info
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<table style="display: none" id="mu_bowser" class="tborder" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="2" border="0" width="90%" align="center"><tr><td class="alt1" width="95%" colspan="3"> Bowser (???)<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr><tr><td class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap" width="95%" valign="top">Links n stuff
<hr size="1" style="color:; background-color:" />blah blah info
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<table style="display: none" id="mu_lucas" class="tborder" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="2" border="0" width="90%" align="center"><tr><td class="alt1" width="95%" colspan="3"> Lucas (???)<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr><tr><td class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap" width="95%" valign="top">Links n stuff
<hr size="1" style="color:; background-color:" />blah blah info
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<table style="display: none" id="mu_ike" class="tborder" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="2" border="0" width="90%" align="center"><tr><td class="alt1" width="95%" colspan="3"> Ike (???)<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr><tr><td class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap" width="95%" valign="top">Links n stuff
<hr size="1" style="color:; background-color:" />blah blah info
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<table style="display: none" id="mu_yoshi" class="tborder" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="2" border="0" width="90%" align="center"><tr><td class="alt1" width="95%" colspan="3"> Yoshi (???)<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr><tr><td class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap" width="95%" valign="top">Links n stuff
<hr size="1" style="color:; background-color:" />blah blah info
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<table style="display: none" id="mu_mario" class="tborder" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="2" border="0" width="90%" align="center"><tr><td class="alt1" width="95%" colspan="3"> Mario (???)<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr><tr><td class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap" width="95%" valign="top">Links n stuff
<hr size="1" style="color:; background-color:" />blah blah info
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<table style="display: none" id="mu_falcon" class="tborder" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="2" border="0" width="90%" align="center"><tr><td class="alt1" width="95%" colspan="3"> Captain Falcon (???)<div class="smallfont"><a href="#mu_tablemenu">Top</a></div></td></tr><tr><td class="alt2" nowrap="nowrap" width="95%" valign="top">Links n stuff
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[Shaya]

A while back (7 months ago, so take things with a grain of salt), the Marth Backroom members listed what they felt about match ups in terms of difficulty. Seperating things in tiers. Of course other than the number of categories they used, the level of difficulty for each wasnt uniform. As in one person may have had 3 categories for matchups that were around even (out of 7) whilst my seven had a wider spread in that regard.

Meta Knight 2.14
Dedede 3.43
Ice Climbers 4.14
Snake 4.89
ROB 5.64
ZSS 5.68
Marth 5.93 (obv 50:50)
DK 6.89
Diddy Kong 7.04
Falco 7.43
Wario 7.43
Fox 7.71
Wolf 7.79
Kirby 8.32
Pit 8.43
Bowser 8.61
Olimar 8.68
Pikachu 8.96
Lucario 8.96
Jigglypuff 9.11
G&W 9.21
Sheik 9.21
Tink 9.32
Mario 9.46
Sonic 9.71
Link 9.86
Peach 9.96
Charizard 10.21
Zelda 10.36
Falcon 10.36
Luigi 10.71
Ike 10.86
Squirtle 10.93
Yoshi 11.32
Samus 11.36
Ivysaur 12.11
Ness 12.86
Lucas 12.86
Ganondorf 12.86

-

One of the main things was that some characters (like pikachu and FOX) didnt get many votes. Train of thought for Snake has changed drastically since then as well.

 

[Reizilla]

Awesome. I've been waiting for this for quite some time. I wish I could help in some way, but I'm not very good/knowledgeable at most match-ups :/

Although, I think discussions should start with either Snake or ICs, since those seem to be the match-ups that people think evolved the most since last discussed.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I agree however MK and diddy need to be re-included as after snake.


Snake is probably the match up we should discuss first


also difficulty and match ups aren't always the same thing, playing an ice climber generally requires more mental focus then metaknight(imo), yet its around and even match up.

 

[Jdietz43]

Great. I fully support this as I recently picked up Marth, though I'm afraid I won't be able to help you very much. It's taking all my self control to not make a huge Biglou 100:0 MU joke at this very moment so I'll just give my kudos to starting this project and leave before I make a fool of myself.

EDIT: On a semi-useful note I think the format/layout you're using with the individual boxes is head and shoulders above previous methods. It looks clean and crisp while still giving you the ratio at a glance. The hover text on the character images is also appreciated for quick referencing. I'll leave now, trust me it's best for everyone.

 

[Pr0phetic]

Glad you picked this up Shaya, track and SAT stuff is killing me. I'll be around to help though!

 

[Shaya]

Cool Rukkiko .

Anyway, I wanted to discuss Dedede a bit.
I honestly believe he is Marths hardest match up (yes harder than MK).

One of the most dedede saturated regions in the states (Florida) has been holding back a hidden gem of a Marth main for a VERY long time. I dont see how Marth pressures the king when d3s grab range is around the length of marths disjoint. When every mistake equates to 20-30% + being off stage against a character who destroys us at the ledge + mostly outprios us in the air with bair (we do outdisjoint that though, but whilst recovering we cant exactly afford to be retreating for long).
Some things that dont work on all characters (full hop rising aerials and ftilt) work on Dedede, and we can really harrass his recovery off stage as well as juggle him pretty well. But yeah...

Some EC marths thinks the match up is even iirc, but I just dont see how...

 

[Mr-R]

me neither, ddd is DEFINTELY marths hardest match up imo

 

[Shaya]

me neither, ddd is DEFINTELY marths hardest match up imo

would you like to bring up some of your experiences in the match up?

<3

 

[Punishment Divine]

I don't believe DDD is harder than MK, whatsoever. First of all, DDD is an easy juggle target, and easy to rack up damage on. Second, you have ways to play around his options, unlike MK. Ftilt, his main option other than F-B of keeping people out, can be easily punished by Marth. His grab range also isn't SO big a deal when you're able to hit him with Fullhop Rising Aerials, and you have fast, ranged options like DB and jab to punish missed grabs. You HAVE to have quick reaction time in order to beat DDD. As for his bair, the most you can hope for is, on stage, to get under him. You have to read what he does after the bair, however, because if you shield it, and you play your cards correctly, the most it should do is turn the situation neutral.

You simply can't fall behind, as always.

What also helps is if you play this matchup EXACTLY like you play against ICs. If you have the "If I get grabbed, I will die." mentality and play it safe while capitalizing on all his errors, you should be successful.

 

[Mr-R]

would you like to bring up some of your experiences in the match up?

<3

I only have experience within friendlies or teammatches against ddd,
in a tourney i always go zss

 

[Megavitamins]

DDD Marth isn't that bad, def not as bad as Mk... Mr r post ur specifc reasons plz

 

[Player-3]

i feel like d3 is even or 55-45 i'm just terribad at the matchup

tips plox

inb4don'tgetgrabbed

 

[Mr-R]

My primary reason would be that one mispaced ( fastfalled )fair would lead to a chaingrab that does like 30 + damege most of the time
other reasons would be his RIDICULOUS downair which outranges everything u have vertically. for example when he's hanging on the edge and JUMPS with a downair, and then continues to space with those annoying backairs ( while he keeps jumping ) he usually gets a 'safe' way of returning to the stage
if ur shorthop retreating fair gets shielded u get punished by his f tilt.
fullhops would usually do the job but I have trouble landing on the ground safely because of his broken grab range and f tilt.
his bair has pretty good killing power, comes out PRETTY fast, and has decent range which can be annoying when ur trying to space YOUR fairs ( same can be said about diddys fair )
not to mention that u cant kill the ******* till like 150-180
and its not like hes EASY TO GIMP like snake.
And every time he chaingrabs u, not only does he get a crazy amount of free damege, he also throws u to a ***** up position the air where he forces u to either get back onstage in a risky manner or just go for the edge. both would be 'bad' for u.

im a total fluke when it comes to this match up thats why i go zss lol ( and its pretty **** easy with zss )

 

[Shaya]

I wouldnt want this to turn into some regional bias debate... but... I dont want to see the same region of people talking in absoloutes about things.. just coz.

One of the only dededes Im aware of on the EC is Atomsk. Ive seen him say Marth does fine. I see a lot of EC players/Marths think MK is an abomination, but we have MikeHaze beating the MKs EC dread. Ive seen a more successful solo-D3 (CO18) say its an advantage (not sure if he said strong one). Junk may not be the most well-known [for] D3 either, but he is able to boast a good foundation of Marth knowledge and has stopped Zex from even bothering to use Marth against him anymore (from what Ive heard). We have chatted about how badly D3 mutilates marth in a lot of common situations, and honestly I do NOT see MK doing the same.

I do not see MK being able to do up to half a stock or more damage to us everytime he grabs us. I dont see MK living up to twice the percentages we do. I dont see MK outranging us in the air either, or killing us at the percents dedede can (without a gimp).
Now I may be extremely off here, but I see and know workable spacing techniques Marth can use against MK with a lot more margin for errors than he does against D3 (opinion)
One of the major annoyances I find is d3s shielding / rolldodges being so simply... effective. And they hamper on Marths weaknesses quite a bit. (opinion)

 

[Blacknight99923]

honestly i think D3 should be harder then MK if the d3 is playing it right you shouldn't win at all.


also i just GR daired a friend of mine today, teh feeling of gimping metaknight is.So ORGASMIC.

but stay on topic of D3 though.

 

[Punishment Divine]

One of the only dededes Im aware of on the EC is Atomsk. Ive seen him say Marth does fine. I see a lot of EC players/Marths think MK is an abomination, but we have MikeHaze beating the MKs EC dread. Ive seen a more successful solo-D3 (CO18) say its an advantage (not sure if he said strong one). Junk may not be the most well-known [for] D3 either, but he is able to boast a good foundation of Marth knowledge and has stopped Zex from even bothering to use Marth against him anymore (from what Ive heard). We have chatted about how badly D3 mutilates marth in a lot of common situations, and honestly I do NOT see MK doing the same.

We also have a couple of DDD's who are up and coming, like bschung and Leo (Basic Sausage) was always good, but kinda doesn't play much anymore.

I think that EC/WC style might have something to do with this. D3 doesn't really exist on the WC, outside of Commander Beef (And I scoff at anyone who would consider him a top D3), and it is a matchup you need experience in.

What situations do you think D3 can mutilate Marth that MK cannot do the same? If we're going by theory here, then Marth will actually NEVER be able to hit MK. Ever.

I do not see MK being able to do up to half a stock or more damage to us everytime he grabs us. I dont see MK living up to twice the percentages we do. I dont see MK outranging us in the air either, or killing us at the percents dedede can (without a gimp).
Now I may be extremely off here, but I see and know workable spacing techniques Marth can use against MK with a lot more margin for errors than he does against D3 (opinion)
One of the major annoyances I find is d3s shielding / rolldodges being so simply... effective. And they hamper on Marths weaknesses quite a bit. (opinion)

The thing is, MK might not be able to kill us without a gimp, but do you know how easy it can be to gimp Marth? Me and Eazy talked about it once. Whenever MK dthrows us, doesn't the thought go through your head: "Am I going to die right now?" Gimping Marth with MK is dumb easy, no matter how much you mix your options up.

Spacing against MK, imo, takes a LOT more patience and quick reaction time than it does fighting D3. As for him not outspacing us in the air, why would MK need to be in the air in this matchup unless he has momentum? To me, MK simply walking at me is the scariest thing in the world.

And why should rolling with D3 ever be a solid option, ever? Very few situations come to mind where you can't punish it on reaction. His shield is annoying, I must confess, but shield is a resource and space should be endless if you know what you're doing.

@ Mr. R - overall, step up your spacing. If you find yourself getting constantly grabbed by D3, you're playing the matchup very wrong. I think MK can capitalize on an error MUCH more than D3 can in a lot of situations. I'll address a few of your issues specifically, though:

other reasons would be his RIDICULOUS downair which outranges everything u have vertically. for example when he's hanging on the edge and JUMPS with a downair, and then continues to space with those annoying backairs ( while he keeps jumping ) he usually gets a 'safe' way of returning to the stage

I agree D3 has a ridiculous dair, but not in this matchup. If you're getting hit by dair a lot, you most likely have a spotdodge habit or simply aren't picking your options correctly. It outspaces us vertically, but it has 0 range horizontally, and has enough lag that if you play around it you should be able to keep him off the ledge.

his bair has pretty good killing power, comes out PRETTY fast, and has decent range which can be annoying when ur trying to space YOUR fairs ( same can be said about diddys fair )

I agree, it's a very dumb move but, like Diddy's fair, it must be played around. Characters like Wolf, Diddy, D3, etc. with range/priority in the air can be quite annoying, but you clearly outrange D3's bair and if you get the option to get under him for it, you can easily sway the situation.

not to mention that u cant kill the ******* till like 150-180

Patience is a virtue, and such things come with playing a character like Marth.

and its not like hes EASY TO GIMP like snake.

IMO, he's much easier to gimp and and juggle than an intelligently recovering Snake. he has two options - go low and put himself in danger, or go high and risk getting juggle trapped. DDD's up b, unlike Snake, leaves him helpless. This along with his overall mediocre aerial mobility allow you to KNOW exactly where he's going.

IMO the only thin that pushes this matchup in D3's favor are his ledge traps, and ability to put you in that situation. D3 is INCREDIBLY annoying at the edge when they understand how gay their options are. However, if you play it safe Marth is more than able to compete in this matchup at high levels.

somewhere between 55-45/6-4 D3, imo

 

[Lord Chair]

To be honest, you shouldn't be juggling DDD. Sure you can get nice strings on him and generally put him in an awkward position, but juggling? No. A definite no.

Look at the facts, if you miss a FFed airdodge, he's back on the ground. You can't effectively chase his fall like you would in most matchups, considering he can just DJ and screw up your timing.

I can't really give a definite ratio on this one since I quit Marth for good, but this matchup is nowhere near even. Whether or not it's worse than MK, I do not know. But I am tempted to call it 65-35, at least 60-40 in DDD's favor. Reasons have been given I guess, DDD is getting less and less represented (I thought that was just Europe, but seemingly the states don't really have a lot of good DDDs either) and specifically this matchup tends to see very little play, but on paper the matchup should definitely be in DDD's favor, and I think it works that way in practice as well.

 

[Punishment Divine]

Look at the facts, if you miss a FFed airdodge, he's back on the ground. You can't effectively chase his fall like you would in most matchups, considering he can just DJ and screw up your timing.

Chasing D3 high up in the air? No thanks. I would rely on sticking to the ground, keeping close attention to where he'll land. If you apply proper platform pressure and read his landing points, you should be able to juggle D3 just fine imo

 

[Blacknight99923]

In my opinion the way WC marths fights metaknight is far more appropriate then ECs method, call me funny but WC marths(+the shaya god) tend to be doing better against MK and aren't the ones saying its as bad. I am looking at the threads as far as I know shaya, mike (or he would just be doing a ditto with MK) (I haven't heard junk saying anything terribad about MK) and I (not that most of you really care about a randoms opinion) seem to be saying the match up is definetly winnable and less of a pain in the ***. Since its unlikely we have an inherent ability to be better then people at a paticular match up its my guess that its the overall style that does better against metaknight.


When I get downthrowed i am honestly not scared about getting gimped lol,

If your getting gimped as marth you should probably work on your recovery I don't see any good marths getting frequently gimped by anyone.




On discussion of D3 match up lord chair is right, we don't see this match up played frequently

 

[∫unk]

just dont space obvious and you'll be fine.

don't go for the grab at 0, grab after 0 when you've established pressure. then fake like youre doing the same thing and grab them at 0 the next stock, etc. just playing smart.

the only thing that makes it in ddd advantage is the chaingrab and sometimes ddd gets a luck grab (hard to explain but if you play the matchup enough you'll know) which is a chaingrab + ledge trap

ddd's need to know how to manage their shield level with powershields and spotdodges and just retreating when you know you cant take a forward b.

this matchup is pretty simple, and ddd is a really dumb character lol

edit: shield management is really important for any character fighting marth/mk. you need a pretty good shield to beat db and tornado.

 

[Blacknight99923]

how usful is SB against D3?
I tend to use it against my oppenents when they have less then aproxamently 70% or less (I think it shatters at 80% of oppenents shield no? anyway i try to give leeway) because my oppenents options at that point are generally get hit or lose a stock (or spotdodge but I don't use it when ithink they will spotdodge).

 

[∫unk]

if my shield was at 70%, i'd use a lot more spotdodge and space so you can't safely shieldbreaker or db

in a pure analytical standpoint, those are obvious attacks, i mean you can try them but someone goods not going to repeatedly get into that situation and especially get hit by those moves in that situation

like that might work once then the next time you try you'll probably get hit for it

there's no "do this in this situation because its the best option". people just adapt too fast. there might be a best option, but the worst option is the obvious one. then there's the innovative options.

edit: i know people can do really dumb things like SD and that would technically be "the worst option", but those aren't options thats just... mistakes.

i dunno im probably rambling. mk and ddd are both hard for marth. doesn't really matter who is harder.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I didn't mean to convey I only use that attack in a situation, I simply feel its a better option but duely noted.


but for the purposes of a match up discussion what do you think Marth d3 is, or instead of numbers would you simply rather say "disadvantedge"

 

[Punishment Divine]

In my opinion the way WC marths fights metaknight is far more appropriate then ECs method, call me funny but WC marths(+the shaya god) tend to be doing better against MK and aren't the ones saying its as bad. I am looking at the threads as far as I know shaya, mike (or he would just be doing a ditto with MK) (I haven't heard junk saying anything terribad about MK) and I (not that most of you really care about a randoms opinion) seem to be saying the match up is definetly winnable and less of a pain in the ***. Since its unlikely we have an inherent ability to be better then people at a paticular match up its my guess that its the overall style that does better against metaknight.


When I get downthrowed i am honestly not scared about getting gimped lol,

If your getting gimped as marth you should probably work on your recovery I don't see any good marths getting frequently gimped by anyone.

No matter what, MK should have no problem gimping you. You say that if you're getting gimped you should work on your recovery, I say if you're having trouble gimping Marth you should work on your gimping skills.

Also, as far as WC Marths having less trouble with MK, I simply think that this is because Mike gets to play with the top MKs of the WC, and knows their style. Not that Mike isn't amazing, but I think his success against those MKs in particular is partially due to the fact that he plays with those MKs a lot. Also, EC does well against MK. Neo beats MKs often, Minty hasn't lost to one in a while other than Shadow and took him to last stock last time they played iirc, you just don't hear about it often lol.

 

[C.box]

Also, as far as WC Marths having less trouble with MK, I simply think that this is because Mike gets to play with the top MKs of the WC, and knows their style. Not that Mike isn't amazing, but I think his success against those MKs in particular is partially due to the fact that he plays with those MKs a lot. Also, EC does well against MK. Neo beats MKs often, Minty hasn't lost to one in a while other than Shadow and took him to last stock last time they played iirc, you just don't hear about it often lol.

well mike did beat lee's mk, and i heard he beat shadow and dmbrandon in mms.

 

[Punishment Divine]

Yeah he is obviously successful outside of WC. I'm just saying that it doesn't hurt that he plays the top MKs of his coast often.

I just don't think there's any evidence that supports other matchups are more difficult.

 

[Blacknight99923]

the gimping agruement works both ways but i feel strongly marth shouldn't be getting gimped by MK.


he also 3-0 DM in a 20$ MM.DM needs to shut his mouth regarding marth from now on lol



Playing the top players of your coast works both ways, yes you get better against them but so do they.

 

[Punishment Divine]

DM is always just trolling lol. Minty 2-stocked him twice, although he johns about it.

 

[Blacknight99923]

i was right he SHOULD wear the dunce tiara

 

[Shaya]

Yeah dthrow is bad.

Even though DI down and you are at least giving yourself the opportunity for a bounce to cut your trajectory / allow an early dolphin slash / maybe even a tech.
Downthrow is scary... nuff said.

And lol @ the in theory we would never hit MK. Cut the crap. Enough of our moves hit MK where he cant hit us. The only move that SERIOUSLY is not ideally manageable is fsmash... but whooee 20+ frame start up.
We outrange his disjoints, that is enough to allow a tight spacing game where Marth can win the altercations.

 

[Blacknight99923]

imo MK wins this due to being able to stage counter pick marth far more effectivly then marth can stage CP meta.
GR dair is really good here too if you can land it. I am in firm belief ALL marths serious about taking on thsi match up should spend their free time even 15 minutes a day, working on GR dair to the point of doing it consistently.

 

[Punishment Divine]

And lol @ the in theory we would never hit MK. Cut the crap. Enough of our moves hit MK where he cant hit us. The only move that SERIOUSLY is not ideally manageable is fsmash... but whooee 20+ frame start up.
We outrange his disjoints, that is enough to allow a tight spacing game where Marth can win the altercations.

It's not WHERE MKs moves hit which make him, theoretically, almost impossible to hit. It's WHEN they hit, when they can hit us, and HOW they hit.

 

[Shaya]

You said that theoretically he is [now almost] impossible to hit.
beyond instantly starting the match on the ledge or infinite dimension caping you are presenting absoloutely no valid information. At least not which I would consider justifying such a statement.
Dont do a DP on me PD. And you know which DP I mean.

 

[Punishment Divine]

Here's my theory on MK:

The only reliable way to hit MK is to bait and play guessing games tipped away from your favor.

I simply cannot think of a reliable way to hit MK without eating a ftilt, SL, dtilt, nado or uair.

And of course I was exaggerating when I said literally impossible. It's obviously possible, but in my opinion so far away from consistently probable that I believe the matchup to potentially be 7-3

 

[Albert.]

DDD is harder than MK.

Circumstantial reasoning?

Mike.

Mike beat Shadow's, DM's, Lee's, and Havok's MKs at MLG
He's beaten Dojo, DSF, and Tyrant in the past.

Atomsk's DDD beat his Marth for their placings matches.
and in the past, Mike has used MK against DDD in the past (Commander Beef's btw.)

Another factor- MK does not have a "past 100 automatic KO with DI" move. DDD does. (UTilt)

I usually live to at least 140 against MK, but DDD has more power.

 

[Megavitamins]

Papa Matt... I never realized how good you are at posting. Call this meat riding, but that's like exactly what I wanted to say only in a really good manner. Good stuff

 

[-Cross-]

Well if we are still talking about the D3 mu instead of arguing about which mu is harder then here's some more input. Most of this is what I remember Pierce telling me about the MU a while back, and Pierce is a pretty knowledgeable source so I wouldn't doubt him

Most of your damage will come from edgeguarding. It's where D3 is most vulnerable and his bair is not as big of an obstacle because he won't be able to use it as freely while trying to recover. This is also the reason f-throw x3 > f-smash at 0% is very useful, because it will get D3 off the stage most of the time. Once he is off the stage, just make it hell for him to get back. Mix in empty jumps to try and get him to waste jumps, and empty jumps also help with a mixup b/c then you can second jump fair if they don't expect you to attack them.

Also cover D3's recovery options so that D3 is forced to recover to the ledge. You want to keep D3's options as minimized as possible, so when you can't get any more % from edgeguarding. Back up and cover the stage so D3 goes to the ledge.

Regarding the onstage game:
D3's bair is very good. Do not try to beat this move with fair. I actually believe that nair can beat this move. Now from my limited experience, I have had moments where spaced correctly nair has beaten moves that usually counter fair. But this is not 100%, so I'm sure everybody has plenty of moments to argue against this point, but I rely on nair to beat his bair if I have too.

Also I forget exactly but it seemed like Pierce was able to powershield most of bsc's ftilt on reaction and punish. Idk if this is pure reaction or there was some anticipation involved, but it's very possible. Also almost 100% of the time a waddle dee was thrown Pierce was able to shield and punish. The point of these two instance is to DB and take D3 off the stage for edgeguarding.

tl;dr
The MU is dependent on your ability to rack up your damage from edgeguarding. So make sure most of your options are used to get him offstage. Kills will come from more %.

 

[clowsui]

there is no way to explain how i feel about marth vs. mk in a way that is accessible to the understanding of the masses but if i were to TRY the best statement would be "learn to master the neutral situation"

there are ways of keeping the situation neutral but having an obvious advantage. momentum is the most obvious + common one but changing mixup potential, doing reads, correct reactions in PREVIOUS situations, etc. all this stuff adds up vs. mk

u guys also have to remember that just because somebody hits u doesn't mean that they're automatically in a good position. sometimes hitting the opponent is worse than not hitting them, and not necessarily due to pure positioning factors

 

[Steel_Samurai]

Regarding the onstage game:
D3's bair is very good. Do not try to beat this move with fair. I actually believe that nair can beat this move. Now from my limited experience, I have had moments where spaced correctly nair has beaten moves that usually counter fair. But this is not 100%, so I'm sure everybody has plenty of moments to argue against this point, but I rely on nair to beat his bair if I have too.

Yeah, I have found nair reliable against bair as well

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eqHW_sY6mI
at :47, mike uses a nair in place to beat CPU's bair