Marth's Match Up Index

[Punishment Divine]

DDD is harder than MK.

Circumstantial reasoning?

Mike.

Mike beat Shadow's, DM's, Lee's, and Havok's MKs at MLG
He's beaten Dojo, DSF, and Tyrant in the past.

Atomsk's DDD beat his Marth for their placings matches.
and in the past, Mike has used MK against DDD in the past (Commander Beef's btw.)

Another factor- MK does not have a "past 100 automatic KO with DI" move. DDD does. (UTilt)

I usually live to at least 140 against MK, but DDD has more power.

Circumstantial reasoning has little to no place in matchup discussion imo. It can help sway opinions maybe, but using Mike as one example can't do much.

Like I said, WC has little DDD exp. Junk is getting there as a prominent DDD but tbh CBeef looks pretty ***, albeit he knows how to play basic DDD.

It isn't a matchup that happens too often but when I see Neo, Minty, and even myself play the matchup, it isn't very bad.

And also D3's utilt shouldn't be hitting you often. Going over DDD is the second worst cardinal sin you should be committing in this matchup, with the first being airdodging into him.

And thank you, John lol

 

[Player-3]

so in short

nair alot

stay away from above him
don't ad into him


and grab

 

[Pr0phetic]

I want to throw in my two cents, and it's going to involve Marth, MK, and D3.

At the moment, I use all of them (Marth maining, D3 second and MK and D3 for teams). Now I've played pro MKs, and pro D3's, and it is considerably harder to beat an MK than D3.

D3's weight and gimping prowess allow him to have the slight advantage, yes. However, Junk has helped me with this in the past and allowed me to expand on this idea: Marth outspeeds and outspaces D3. Marth has a way easier time gimping a D3 due to his considerably slow aerial movement and Nair. MK has a lot more options to recover. Now onto the grab, the pain in the *** for Marth. Even though this may lead to substantial traps, Marth can outspace D3 with Dtilt and Nair. I'm sorry Junk but ima spill this, simply zoning with a retreating Nair and Dtilt will keep Marth out of D3's killer zone. Whether this holds true (I doubt it, D3's metagame isn't rapidly changing) is up in the air, i need to revisit this.

If I think of anything else, I'll add it, but for now I feel MK is Marth's hardest mu.

 

[Albert.]

Circumstantial reasoning has little to no place in matchup discussion imo. It can help sway opinions maybe, but using Mike as one example can't do much.

Like I said, WC has little DDD exp. Junk is getting there as a prominent DDD but tbh CBeef looks pretty ***, albeit he knows how to play basic DDD.

It isn't a matchup that happens too often but when I see Neo, Minty, and even myself play the matchup, it isn't very bad.

Using Mike as an example is VERY valid.

And honestly, None of you are showing the respect deserved to somebody that has beaten both Mike and Havok in-tourney (CBeef)

 

[Shaya]

WC: MK isnt that bad, probably close to even (Havok, MikeHaze, Tyrant)
EC: MK is 70:30 or worse. Impossible match up.



Ill do an export for an actual dedede match up discussion soon. But I was more interested in getting a base for ratios.

Are people opposed to 40:60 disadvantages for Marth against both Dedede and MK?
ive seen some say its close to even or whatever, but what ratio are you thinking here?

Yes, one person shouldnt set the discourse for fact in match ups, well not all the time, at least. Im honestly interested in what CO18 thinks, rounding off the information im interested in I guess.
Either way, a lot WC players ive talked to as well as Florida players have had opinions of Dedede being harder.

 

[Pr0phetic]

I think Marth:MK is 40:60 and I'm EC and I approve this message.

 

[Blacknight99923]

if metaknight only has an advantedge when he has a lead it shouldn't be worse then 4-6

 

[-Cross-]

If MK is behind in %, he still has a decent advantage over Marth, even if Marth plays defensively. If anything the MU gets much worse than 6-4 when MK is in the lead. The only reason I would say 6-4 is because Marth has guaranteed kill moves at mid-higher%'s. Situational but gamebreaking.

 

[Punishment Divine]

Using Mike as an example is VERY valid.

And honestly, None of you are showing the respect deserved to somebody that has beaten both Mike and Havok in-tourney (CBeef)

That is the silliest thing I've ever heard. You can't just say "Uhh using one player as an example to set a rule is SOOOO VALID like wow I mean Ally beats MKs all the time Snake must win the matchup miright?" >.>

And CBeef, from what I've seen, isn't that good. WC lacks D3 experience =/ FL and EC in general has much more experience against D3.

if metaknight only has an advantedge when he has a lead it shouldn't be worse then 4-6

MK always has the advantage. It's just simply a lot easier when the situation is neutral or you're in the lead.

When you're in the lead/neutral, the matchup is 6-4, imo, but when he's in the lead it's probably like 7-3

 

[Player-3]

tbh i don't find mk that hard he just has 5 jumps

d3 is gay though

 

[Shaya]

Im one to think the MU is even in a neutral situation. His pros are from the higher likely hood of his win card (gimping) coming through more often than ours (tipper kills, grab release -> dair [hell, who is able to do this consistantly at all though? its that hard]).

Why I feel dedede is harder because I do not feel the match up is solid Disadvantage in a neutral situation. And once you are in a bad position the damage output from Dedede is near guaranteed, as opposed to MK most generally only getting one attempt (in any given bad situation) to gimp us.

 

[Punishment Divine]

I can do GR dair pretty consistently, as can Minty.

Why I feel the matchup is still at a disadvantage at neutral is due to the fact that we have to mindgame an approach. If we outright approach MK, he has a large number of options to shut us down, and simply doesn't have to approach.

We CAN approach DDD, albeit it has to be in a safe fashion.

 

[Megavitamins]

Albert, I just show your post on the last page...

Are you HONESTLY basing match up ratios based on what player's experience, without his personal input? Doesn't matter how good he is, when NEO lost to Ganon people didn't go Oh Em Gee, Ganon > marth!!

 

[Shaya]

mindgaming to approach MK?
The opposite is true as well...

And we have to approach dedede with thought in mind as well...
He has a very good dash to shield time that covers a small but notable area. His shield is spectacular in this regard and crossing over is pretty much always dangerous.

 

[Punishment Divine]

mindgaming to approach MK?
The opposite is true as well...

not exactly lol

MK has a lot more tools to approach Marth. He can literally just sort of throw a Tornado out there and put you in not only a bad position, but force the situation against you. This along with his ability to approach without committing to one option give him the nod in the neutral situation.

Obviously thought has to go into approaching, but you don't have to play guessing games with D3. You simply must space yourself correctly and know what his options are.

Crossing him up is, of course, a terrible idea.

 

[Shaya]

What?

How is approaching with Tornado from a neutral position ever good for MK?
How does MKs approach options not have commitment? If he isnt walking hes committing. If hes dashing his range is terrible. If hes in the air we outrange him from the ground, hit him where he cant hit us with rising fairs / retreating bairs.

Show me where/how MK can have 0% commitment safe approach.

 

[Punishment Divine]

Because that's what you do in debate? lol

Do they not teach you how to debate an issue in Australia, Shaya? You state your opinion in absolutes, what you say you must believe to be true.

As for backing them up with no real information, I beg to differ. I don't see you bringing stone cold facts to the table, to be honest, and I don't see you trying to disprove my points with data, either.

How is approaching with Tornado from a neutral position ever good for MK?

Marth is going to have to try and approach at some point, and tornado shuts down a majority of our approaches, unless you're going to try and tell me that jumping in and countering is a viable approach.

How does MKs approach options not have commitment? If he isnt walking hes committing. If hes dashing his range is terrible. If hes in the air we outrange him from the ground, hit him where he cant hit us with rising fairs / retreating bairs.

Why wouldn't he be walking? That should be all he's doing in the neutral situation. His grounded options, while walking, do not require him to commit or simply force the situation back to neutral if he chooses his options correctly.

Show me where/how MK can have 0% commitment safe approach.

When I say "approach" I mean "wait for Marth to do something then pick an option" because that's when MK can actually approach Marth. If he's in the air or is dashing, then yes, MK will have to commit to hit Marth and is actually at a disadvantage. However, by walking, he doesn't have to commit himself and if he does, the option is usually completely safe.

 

[Shaya]

Except at the point where from us standing still our Dancing Blade outranges MKs tilts.
All of our sword ground moves outrange his disjoints. Him actually using any move that doesnt have less than 4 frames cooldown is a commitment we can beat (read none of his moves; only Ftilt technically due to only 3 frames between each hit at max speed).
He cannot afford to whiff an attack
He has multiple hits of ftilt, but if he uses the second hit of it he is now in full commitment to the move. To top it off at max range SDIng to avoid the hits is possible and practical. And again, our moves outrange his disjoints, our fsmash outranges him, and our standing still db outranges him as well.

So where does MK not have to mindgame us to get a successful approach?
Our walk speed is better; our fair will hit MK whilst he cannot hit us with dtilt/ftilt faster than reaction time.
If Marth comes within his range with a shield he has to predict this specifically to avoid getting grabbed or punished.

If you were so correct about how MK has free approaches vs Marth, then no Marth would ever win.

MKs tornado is slower than reaction time, and a Marth jumping above MK without proper spacing (i.e. shuttle loop fodder) or throwing out moves that will whiff is not someone playing the match up properly.

 

[Punishment Divine]

Although I might have insinuated that MK has free approaches, it's not what I meant. I simply used the tornado example to show that MK can just sort of throw a move out there, and it actually has a moderate probability of working.

Except at the point where from us standing still our Dancing Blade outranges MKs tilts.

I might be wrong, but the cooldown on MK's dtilt and ftilt 1 seen to to be minuscule enough to where he can throw up a shield or use SL to escape DB. He could also just walk/dash away to either turn the situation neutral again or shield -> punish depending on where we go with our DB. The cooldown on the move alone make it a bad approach tool for a walking opponent.

All of our sword ground moves outrange his disjoints. Him actually using any move that doesnt have less than 4 frames cooldown is a commitment we can beat (read none of his moves; only Ftilt technically due to only 3 frames between each hit at max speed).

Point taken

He cannot afford to whiff an attack

Nor can we, to be honest.

So where does MK not have to mindgame us to get a successful approach?
Our walk speed is better; our fair will hit MK whilst he cannot hit us with dtilt/ftilt faster than reaction time.
If Marth comes within his range with a shield he has to predict this specifically to avoid getting grabbed or punished.

By WALKING. Also dash attacking our landing can spell bad news. And if we commit in the SLIGHTEST, MK's speed and ******** dash grab enable him to approach no problem.

If you get within distance of grabbing MK, you're not only banking on the idea that he won't predict it, but playing a very delicate frame-game. MK's Dtilt can put him in an advantageous position if you botch the timing on your grab in the slightest.

This is why I give the nod to MK in the neutral position. Marth has to be extremely precise in his timing, while MK's lightning fast tilts along with his ability to shut us down out of a walk allow him to play a much wider frame game, as opposed to Marth being tight on everything.

You could say that perfect play comes to mind, but to say you'll be playing perfect all the time is a meh concept to me.

 

[Shaya]

I can see an agreeable conclusion between us;
Our frame precision required to come out ontop is tighter than MKs.

Interpreting how significant that is opinion more than anything.

 

[Punishment Divine]

I can see an agreeable conclusion between us;
Our frame precision required to come out ontop is tighter than MKs.

Interpreting how significant that is opinion more than anything.

Yeah exactly lol

I would justify my point of reasoning with the most basic aspect of fighting games: whoever makes the most mistakes loses.

In this fashion, the character with the least margin of error has the advantage.

 

[Shaya]

The difference is less than reaction time though.
Because both characters cannot afford to whiff the thinking required makes up for a lot

The main thing I was trying to prove here was that MK does need to mindgame to approach.

 

[**Havok**]

Using Mike as an example is VERY valid.

And honestly, None of you are showing the respect deserved to somebody that has beaten both Mike and Havok in-tourney (CBeef)

I have never lost to mr Beef.

Nor ever will.

Smile!

 

[Punishment Divine]

I have never lost to mr Beef.

Nor ever will.

Smile!

<3 Havok

We need to chill at C-bus, dude, not enough interaction at Pound 4 besides giving me Peach tips! lol

 

[Blacknight99923]

I have never lost to mr Beef.

Nor ever will.

Smile!

I think the marth mains are probably forgeting that you were more likely to use MK in that paticular match up

 

[**Havok**]

I think the marth mains are probably forgeting that you were more likely to use MK in that paticular match up

that too.

Besides the TRUE true reason I picked up MK in the first place was to never play marth dittos again.

 

[Blacknight99923]

do you just hate dittos in general?

 

[Remzi]

that too.

Besides the TRUE true reason I picked up MK in the first place was to never play marth dittos again.

well that's as good a reason as any tbh.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I think havok might just be saying that so he doesn't lose respect

I think the real reason he picked up metaknight was to win more



but then again thats just as good of a reason too

 

[Reizilla]

That's why I originally picked up Snake. haha! XD No more dittos and the MK match-up is like 30 times easier for me >_<

 

[Albert.]

I think havok might just be saying that so he doesn't lose respect

I think the real reason he picked up metaknight was to win more



but then again thats just as good of a reason too

Are you like TRYING to be awkward on these forums? You're succeeding.

 

[Blacknight99923]

Are you like TRYING to be awkward on these forums? You're succeeding.

anyone who sacrifices marth for MK lost their pride therefore pointing out his sins won't hurt him at all

 

[Reizilla]

There's no loss of pride in making a good decision. Especially one that has probably gotten him a few more wins/money/success. First commandment, bro. (Be a cool kid)

Sorry for the off-topicness. What starters would be best to take MK/DDD? They'll probably ban FD/Battlefield respectively. Anything terrible about taking MK to PS1, which is just my personal good stage.

 

[Blacknight99923]

There's no loss of pride in making a good decision. Especially one that has probably gotten him a few more wins/money/success. First commandment, bro. (Be a cool kid)

Sorry for the off-topicness. What starters would be best to take MK/DDD? They'll probably ban FD/Battlefield respectively. Anything terrible about taking MK to PS1, which is just my personal good stage.

damm your right all hail Havok teh cool kid


um I dunno why they would ban BF its not terrible for MK and it can screw up Grab releases

 

[Pr0phetic]

Just a side note as it seems EVERYONE AND THEIR GRANDMOTHERS are trying to decide match-ups based on pros beating other pros. While this may seem right, what you really wanna focus on is perfect play vs perfect play, as in Char vs Char, not individuals. Tis' is all, back to relaxing before SATs.

 

[Reizilla]

SAT's 2ez. ACT's 3ez.

Also, Soren, I said "respectively", which means that MK would ban FD and DDD would ban BF. I'm not sure if YI screws with grab releases or not, because of the slants, but I can never do them consistently there. Coincidence or no? Probably should be in the Q&A thread....

 

[Blacknight99923]

that slant can help you though, but fair nair should still work there

 

[M@v]

DDD on FD is Marth's hardest matchup imo. Any other stage MK is his toughest. Reason's simple: You got nowhere to go to escape DDD's loving satanic arms of grabbing doom. On any other stage, you can camp platforms, and if DDD whiffs you can punish him hard by sending him skyward and proceeding with the juggling.

 

[Blacknight99923]

and btw i meant slant helps with D3 and fair and nair will still work on the majority of YI


and I think metaknight on brinstar could be marths worst match up possibly
I haven't actually played it though

 

[Shaya]

I'd prefer MK on brinstar over Frigate, but I hate Frigate .

Hit lag abuse on Brinstar is amazingly good for Marth.
If only MK couldn't shark