Marth's Match Up Index

[Shaya]

Okay I feel I need to get this ball rolling again (was a hectic few weeks here).

1. Do we open up a proper Dedede discussion?
2. Otherwise in this thread let's talk about DEM OPTIONS.
3. And what you think the match up ratio is.

 

[M@v]

55:45 ->60:40 DDD wins. The ratio is worse for marth on FD, although its even to our advantage on a stage like BF or norfair.


DEM options:

More platforms, the better. More platforms=less cgs, and more marth aerial ownage. DDD's bair is his only move that can compete with our fair/nair in the air. And if he's above us, he's in trouble.

 

[Lord Chair]

I don't think it's in Marth's advantage on Battlefield. Doesn't allow as much for vertical spacing.

edit: Still better than SV/FD, of course.

 

[Punishment Divine]

I actually don't mind SV. Many people overrate the stage as "FD with a moving platform". However, the moving platform and lack of ******** lip change the stage greatly. I know that against ICs another FD would be terrible, but SV is actually good against them imo. the fact that the platform moves makes camping it a lot easier.

I think that the matchup is anywhere between 55-45 to 6-4 DDD, depending on the stage. However, I think that 55-45 is more accurate because imo the only stages D3 gets that solid of a adv are FD and Delfino, while Marth has stages like Lylat, BF, and now Norfair with the MLG list to push the matchup closer to even, with the matchup being 55-45 anywhere else pretty much.

 

[Lord Chair]

DDD on Castle Siege is no fun either.

 

[IIIIRICK]

arg hate castle seige and delfino in the ddd match up.

 

[Raziek]

Castle Siege isn't really all THAT bad, you just have to refuse to fight on the ground on the 2nd transition. I just chill up on the canopies and jump back and forth until the 3rd transition.

 

[Lord Chair]

Oh yeah, since MLG comes into play: Green Greens says hi.

 

[Shaya]

Green Greens imo isn't as bad as you'd think.

If you have a percent lead and are in the middle there, Dedede has no hope in hell of getting in there.
If you dtilt the bottom of a filled up quarry of blocks, the blocks on top will remain there and you should be able to break out of the CG.

It's a bit risky if let's say you are at MLG (or at an event using MLG rules) and get confronted with this as a CP out of no where if you don't have practice, but there are various tricks here that can help you out.

Another thing to remember is that the platforms above you in the middle part allow you to full hop rising dair into an auto cancel (IIRC). If you dtilt against a wall into a jab and get a lucky trip you're looking at gaining a lot of damage (I've done this before) as well.

Personally I hate norfair against Dedede

 

[Raziek]

Personally I hate norfair against Dedede

How can you hate Norfair against Dedede? As long as he hasn't claimed the bottom section, you get to pressure his shield from a SAFE distance with Bair, instead of getting shield-grabbed all day.

Like, I don't have any super, top-of-the-metagame Dedede's around here, but I have all really easy time on Norfair.

 

[Lord Chair]

The stage is pretty much ALL ABOUT getting the bottom platform. You can the fact that having it is a pro, but you've got yourself a rather silly situation if he's the one in charge. No, you don't have to approach, that's the utter failure of the stage itself. It promotes excessive camping until you are given an advantageous situation because of the lava, that's when you'll strike and if you succeed in getting stage control then it's fine, if you do not succeed you'll just camp some more.

Truth is, whatever specific advantage you'll net yourself on this stage (easy recovering from the ledge, reduced length on chaingrabs) will probably be outweighed by whatever advantage DDD gets. You can't approach this stage without approaching it in an unorthodox fashion, because that's exactly what it requires: it's a stupid stage and you have to think in stupid ways in order to understand how it works. So long as you don't have excessive experience with the matchup on this stage, you shouldn't really be discussing it. MLG has decided to stick to this stage, and it should get complete coverage on all matchups by experienced Marths. Perhaps it's a decent community project, since the Marth boards are lacking any such project at the moment, and Norfair may turn out to be an important stage as the metagame develops.

Shaya, it's up to you. Here's our free opportunity to advance the metagame.

 

[Shaya]

Norfair was legal in my region for a year+,

I've dealt with enough Dededes, Pits, MKs, Warios, ZSSs and other nuisances on this stage in that time to pretty much hate it

I'm up for anyone starting a project, really; me giving them as much support as necessary. It's an interesting idea you bring up (covering each match up on the unorthodox/mlg stages) but is it really required? Will it actually get the support from the right people?

 

[Lord Chair]

It should, since it's actually of importance (especially since even a fair amount of good players probably won't know how to deal with certain matchups on these stages). Also, there's nothing going on at the moment so I wouldn't see a reason not to have something important like this happen.

I'm not up to leading such a project, though. I no longer play Marth and discussion about his metagame is nothing more than insightful for my case. It really should only matter if Marths actually care about improving their game, but that's what you're here for, I hope?

 

[Shaya]

Well Norfair isn't becoming legal near me any time soon...

 

[Lord Chair]

No but you obviously want to help those poor MLG Marths, and your insights about the stage are kinda valuable.

Right? :D

 

[Shaya]

My insights into it are based on my limited experience, hence I can only be a soundboard for other player's ideas and notions who are putting effort into/experiencing the stage.

:'(

Stage projects are truly one of those finicky things.

 

[Raziek]

My insights into it are based on my limited experience, hence I can only be a soundboard for other player's ideas and notions who are putting effort into/experiencing the stage.

:'(

Stage projects are truly one of those finicky things.

I VOLUNTEER. NORFAIR IS MY FIRST LOVE. IF IT WERE A WOMAN, I WOULD MARRY IT.

I have heavy match-up experience on this stage against ROB, Snake, Marth, Ike, Dedede, ZSS, DK, and virtually every other character people play around here. I have replays to supplement my claims, and I can easily undertake additional research by playing it against people in my area.

Pick meeeeeeee.

 

[Lord Chair]

Well, start the thread already

 

[Raziek]

Well, start the thread already

I can't do it just yet. T_T

I'm heading over for Smash practice at a friend's place in an hour, and I'll be busy most of Saturday and Sunday prepping for our family move.

If I get some time tonight after I get back, I'll begin the preliminary preparations.

 

[Reizilla]

What do we do if someone mains MK and DDD? Where should we go for a CP or nuetral?

 

[Raziek]

What do we do if someone mains MK and DDD? Where should we go for a CP or nuetral?

I'd go with wherever you're most comfortable, in that case.

 

[Blacknight99923]

D3 stage counter pick them

MK anything that doesn't him a bigger advantage

or FD but only a ******* won't ban it against you
but due to the match up they will PROBABLY be going MK not D3
And Raziek I wouldn't mind helping you on that thread if you wanted, I have a lot of match up knowledge on MK snake Falco, the marth ditto captain falcon(well we don't really need to know this match up to win) I have some pit, peach knowledge to go with it too

 

[Raziek]

D3 stage counter pick them

MK anything that doesn't him a bigger advantage

or FD but only a ******* won't ban it against you
but due to the match up they will PROBABLY be going MK not D3
And Raziek I wouldn't mind helping you on that thread if you wanted, I have a lot of match up knowledge on MK snake Falco, the marth ditto captain falcon(well we don't really need to know this match up to win) I have some pit, peach knowledge to go with it too

MK and Falco would probably help, not many people play them in my area. (Scary, I know) I'll send you a message when I do the character specific match-up tips.

 

[Anaky]

Ive read through all this about Dedede and i think pretty much everythign has been said, i miss-spaced fast fall arieal and your gonna get Chaingrabbed 20-30%, plus Dedede is then gonna follow you and do some more damage with Bair after the Fthrow.

Personally i think Dedede is harder than Meta, although i havent really had Meta experiance (surprise surprise lol) i still think from what ive seen Dedede is more of a pain than Meta, ofc they can both do stupid **** on Marth, but i feel Dededeis slightly harder, i think both matchups are 60:40 though.

Also ROB hasnt been discussed yet, and i wont discuss yet, but i feel that ROB is a hard matchup for Marth as well, ive played a Decent (GAY) ROB player before and i srsly find this matchup frustating, i can state why but i wont start yet.

 

[Shaya]

I'm so/so on ROB.

Like I handle ROB/Wolf/ZSS/DK reasonably well these days...
All of them have range that annoys Marth but none of them have any disjoints... You combo rob to kingdom come after one fair/uair... He just has uber lame gimps on Marth.
All 4 I dance outside their range and swat their hurtboxes on predicted attacks !_!

Dedede would totally be the same if it wasn't for the fact every time you made a mistake it resulted in 30-40% damage plus a terrible position Actually maybe not.. Dedede's bair is insanely hard for Marth to swat from outside d3's range (probably because like a lot of characters, Dedede's foot is disjointed).

 

[Blacknight99923]

d3 can only chain grab marth on flat surfaces iirc from readining in D3 thread....

its also possible to stage **** D3

but again I suppose its all about match one

 

[Player-3]

how2stage **** d3

 

[grimAuxiliatrix]

i think counter is a good move against dedede. even in the air. i mean, it's fairly easy to get it out before any air attacks hit you, and you can always expect a bair at any time. i mean, i know it is like a, super precaution move and generally it's used by newer marfs out of fear of how seemingly weak marth is in situations that you could like, fsmash or dtilt in, but i don't know. i just like countering dedede. it always gtfo's him, and with is range it's generally a tipper.

 

[Pr0phetic]

i think counter is a good move against dedede. even in the air. i mean, it's fairly easy to get it out before any air attacks hit you, and you can always expect a bair at any time. i mean, i know it is like a, super precaution move and generally it's used by newer marfs out of fear of how seemingly weak marth is in situations that you could like, fsmash or dtilt in, but i don't know. i just like countering dedede. it always gtfo's him, and with is range it's generally a tipper.

Stun jacket, oh yes.

And D3 is easy to tipper because he's so fat and slow, spacing him becomes fairly simple (negating the fact of his super arm ra... I mean grab).

 

[Raziek]

Ok, so, the preliminary work on the Norfair project is almost completed, I should have a thread up soon with the basics of the stage, and some general tips. Specific match-up information will be completed gradually.

Edit: Norfair Guide is up.

 

[Anaky]

Tbh u shud sticky this thread and replace the old out of date one.

 

[Shaya]

Once this gets more complete I will.
Thus far it's mostly just a template.

 

[Remzi]

I used to think R.O.B was like the hardest matchup for Marth, but I think my opinion was skewed because of Wi-fi... The only R.O.B i've played offline is Oath's and I won most of them (friendlies, though). I still think It's slightly in ROB's favor though.

 

[Lord Chair]

What makes you think that.

 

[Remzi]

His aerial defensive game is amazing. He can completely **** up your spacing with bair and nair. His fair rivals ours and ftilt ***** any aerial approaches. He edgeguards us better than we do to him, he is heavier, has a strong projectile game, etc.

The reason it's still close is because we can juggle him well and you can rack hella damage with combos at low percents.

 

[Lord Chair]

You are wrong.

His ftilt and fair should not necessarily pose a problem. Ftilt only really beats a jump predict in a fairly neutral situation, and you shouldn't be predictable like that in the first place. He cannot safely whiff either of those attack, whiffed fair > he gets ****ed. Whiffed ftilt: he gets ****ed only slightly less so (well spaced, it's fairly safe on shield, yes). Nair and bair are kinda the same deal: they can only mess you up if you're just wildly swinging in the open air. ROB has no disjoints, Marth does. This means that he cannot really wall Marth, he can only limit his options through his camping game.

If you fullhop from a slight distance, how can ROB possibly screw you up with nair/bair/fair/ftilt/whatever? He won't laser you unless he actually takes it into the air as well, which isn't really the best of situations. Full hopping is decently safe, ROB can't cover that zone.

ROB's edgeguarding is decent enough, so is his ledgeguarding. But keep in mind that he isn't really comfortable being on the ledge either, he doesn't really have anything even close to safe there, while Marth can technically ledge jump > find a way out > when failure occurs, just go back to the ledge and be safe. ROB can't do that, ledge jumping isn't even close to safe in his case. Yeah he can ledgecamp to a certain extent, but it's not really threatening.

As for bair and nair in general, those moves are fun but both situational, he can't simply space with bair without losing stage control, and I don't understand your problem with nair in the first place.

 

[Megavitamins]

You are wrong.

His ftilt and fair should not necessarily pose a problem.

F-tilt angled up beats fair.

His fair can beat out yours, or just trade.

Ftilt only really beats a jump predict in a fairly neutral situation, and you shouldn't be predictable like that in the first place.

... Rob doesn't have to approach, marth does. Marth has limited approaches, the main one being jump ->fair...

He cannot safely whiff either of those attack, whiffed fair > he gets ****ed.

Same thing applies to us lol...

Whiffed ftilt: he gets ****ed only slightly less so (well spaced, it's fairly safe on shield, yes).

True. You can punish with a side-b, but becuase it's so far away he can easily DI out of it. (NL does this alot to me)

Nair and bair are kinda the same deal: they can only mess you up if you're just wildly swinging in the open air.

Okay... You think Rob is going to throw out random air attacks? Yeah, Marth can punish those too, if Rob hits open air.

ROB has no disjoints, Marth does. This means that he cannot really wall Marth, he can only limit his options through his camping game.

Completely untrue. F-tilt is disjoint, bair is disjoint, nair is, im pretty sure fair is as well.

If you fullhop from a slight distance, how can ROB possibly screw you up with nair/bair/fair/ftilt/whatever?

You shouldn't be right next to him, rob can zone marth pretty well... I used to think the same thing as well, until I fought a good rob.

He won't laser you unless he actually takes it into the air as well, which isn't really the best of situations. Full hopping is decently safe, ROB can't cover that zone.

...I don't understand wtf you meant

ROB's edgeguarding is decent enough, so is his ledgeguarding. But keep in mind that he isn't really comfortable being on the ledge either, he doesn't really have anything even close to safe there, while Marth can technically ledge jump > find a way out > when failure occurs, just go back to the ledge and be safe. ROB can't do that, ledge jumping isn't even close to safe in his case. Yeah he can ledgecamp to a certain extent, but it's not really threatening.

Okay... marth is **** on the ledge, rob can just keep a gyro on the ledge. If you're just spamming ledge jump, fair and bair ***** it.

Both chars **** the other on the ledge, its true, but marth isn't as safe as you claim.

As for bair and nair in general, those moves are fun but both situational, he can't simply space with bair without losing stage control, and I don't understand your problem with nair in the first place.

Fun is irrelevant.

Answers are bolded.

 

[xxmoosexx]

Megavitamins wins and ***** both of you.

10wins

 

[Player-3]

Fun is.......ERELEPHANT?





Trollface.jpg


Serioisly though where do you take d3

 

[Shaya]

ROB's ftilt and fair aren't disjointed.
I'm pretty sure at least.

As long as I zone outside ROB's range and bait whiffs I always win, so mmm.