Marth's Infinite on Ness is no more! YES

[cman]

Look back and read the post all the post here Marth cannot dash grab Ness. Marth can still grab release to attacks though.

Ness has a slight aerial range advantage over Marth, and projectile advantage.

Grounded Ness can use his shield, dodges, grab, yo yo, and projectiles. Or just counter ground attack with aerials, just because your opponent is grounded doesn't mean you have to say grounded.

Another point is that one of the parts that Ness players fear in this match up is completely gone.

Right now this is like cutting 5,000 feet off a 30,000 feet tree and trying to climb it, but making it to the same exact height proportion wise.

Dtilt>Dodge, shield, and grab.

Marth can counter, ds, and db during the pkfire, and thunder isn't that hard to avoid. I thought he only had a slight range advantage when retreating his fair. On the ground, marth still has a big advantage.

The main thing that the release was good for the guaranteed dsmash.

I'm inclined to agree that it does take this match slightly closer, but no more than 65:35.

 

[Ref]

Yes 65-35 is what I asked for... No other Marth player seems to agree.

 

[PKNintendo]

Lol @ steel.

Most people said it was 6-4 or even 55-45 with the infinite. I believe you posted this topic.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=198180

 

[Steel]

Look back and read the post all the post here Marth cannot dash grab Ness. Marth can still grab release to attacks though.

Ness has a slight aerial range advantage over Marth, and projectile advantage.

Grounded Ness can use his shield, dodges, grab, yo yo, and projectiles. Or just counter ground attack with aerials, just because your opponent is grounded doesn't mean you have to say grounded.

Another point is that one of the parts that Ness players fear in this match up is completely gone.

Right now this is like cutting 5,000 feet off a 30,000 feet tree and trying to climb it, but making it to the same exact height proportion wise.

His PK fire is nothing to be afraid of.

You can shield and dodge? Kool. Marth destroys rollers and spot dodgers.

Sir, we covered all of Ness' options in the match up discussion. Ness has zero answers for Marth's zoning.

You and the Ness community may have thought the regrab was the most feared thing, but... it's not. Ness' fair beats Marth's fair, sure. But it will still be one of Marth's main tools to shut Ness down when he is getting zoned by Marth's sword.

Again, the guaranteed dsmash is still in play.

 

[Steel]

Lol @ steel.

Most people said it was 6-4 or even 55-45 with the infinite. I believe you posted this topic.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=198180

Uh, no they didn't >_>

And I believe even you agreed with us, 70:30 without the death grab: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5521581&postcount=15

Edit: I skimmed through the whole thing: Viet said 60:40, there was one 65:35/70:30 (he wasn't sure), and then just the other delusional Ness' who thought it was near even. Most agreed with 70:30 or worse.

 

[PKNintendo]

His PK fire is nothing to be afraid of.

You can shield and dodge? Kool. Marth destroys rollers and spot dodgers.

Sir, we covered all of Ness' options in the match up discussion. Ness has zero answers for Marth's zoning.

You and the Ness community may have thought the regrab was the most feared thing, but... it's not. Ness' fair beats Marth's fair, sure. But it will still be one of Marth's main tools to shut Ness down when he is getting zoned by Marth's sword.

Again, the guaranteed dsmash is still in play.

I suppose thats true, but 7-3 is ridiculous, it's an almost impossible matchup.
Marth's 'new' chaingrab on Ness is like a Falco Chaingrab. The smash at the end is still painful, but it doesn't completely change the matchup.

Is Jiggs really at 5-5 on Marth?


Steel is kinda correct, Ness is trash, along with everyone (save few) in mid tier/low tier.
High tier and top tier is where it's at.

Spoiler

not underestimating her or anything

 

[Steel]

No, jiggs is 70:30 or worse.

70:30 is not unwinnable (unless emblem lord says so >_> ), the opponent just has a large advantage and.. probably won't win in a tourny.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Jiggz is not 5/5.

70/30 is pretty unwinnable.

 

[PKNintendo]

Uh, no they didn't >_>

And I believe even you agreed with us, 70:30 without the death grab: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5521581&postcount=15

Edit: I skimmed through the whole thing: Viet said 60:40, there was one 65:35/70:30 (he wasn't sure), and then just the other delusional Ness' who thought it was near even. Most agreed with 70:30 or worse.

I was feeling depressed. (infinite and all) this changes everything? 65-35, take or it or leave it.

 

[Steel]

Meh, no.

Ill change it from 75:25 to 70:30. You just went to being ***** to having a large disadvantage! Yay ^_^

 

[PKNintendo]

Meh, no.

Ill change it from 75:25 to 70:30. You just went to being ***** to having a large disadvantage! Yay ^_^

HURRAY!

Ness is no longer in the gutter vs Marth. And If I play a crappy one, I can win! YEAH!

 

[Zankoku]

70:30 is "unwinnable" at any respectable level of play. Any higher than that is a matchup you simply won't ever see in late tournament matches.

 

[feardragon64]

Ness's options against Marth doesn't change. Either way, Marth can still rackup decent damage with a grab release, even if it doesn't last as long.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

This doesn't really mean anything except that it will be over shorter for Ness, but it's still a CG. And Marth can still use Dsmash to kill, and probably tip it.

 

[Ref]

It's not a chain grab anymore, dashing isn't fast enough to get Ness at the distance he slides away before he can react I retested it and posted that several times.. All you have now are grab releases to attacks.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Yup. All I have is grab release tipper.

Oh wait.

 

[Ref]

That's not what I meant by that... I meant all you have out of grab releases are attacks. No more re grabbing stuff.

Not that is all you have in a match vs. Ness.

 

[BacklashMarth]

Horray, i love techniques that dont significantly change the outcome of a matchup. This ID tactic is similiar to finding a new medicine for cancer. Its not a cure for the initial problem, but it lets you live a little bit longer. *gives steel the nod and goes 70-30

 

[feardragon64]

That's not what I meant by that... I meant all you have out of grab releases are attacks. No more re grabbing stuff.

Not that is all you have in a match vs. Ness.

lol40%deathstotipperfsmash

Thanks for spacing FOR me. Normally I had to spend the time to rack up damage to kill you with a dsmash. But since you're going to go to the perfect distance for a fsmash well, thanks.

Not that Marth needs that either.

 

[Zankoku]

Good point, if you don't change up your DI immediately, you'll not only be placing yourself in tipper range, you'll also be double-stick DIing away against a tipper fsmash.

 

[illinialex24]

Yes 65-35 is what I asked for... No other Marth player seems to agree.

Cause its not like that.

Lol @ steel.

Most people said it was 6-4 or even 55-45 with the infinite. I believe you posted this topic.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=198180

Nowhere even close.

His PK fire is nothing to be afraid of.

You can shield and dodge? Kool. Marth destroys rollers and spot dodgers.

Sir, we covered all of Ness' options in the match up discussion. Ness has zero answers for Marth's zoning.

You and the Ness community may have thought the regrab was the most feared thing, but... it's not. Ness' fair beats Marth's fair, sure. But it will still be one of Marth's main tools to shut Ness down when he is getting zoned by Marth's sword.

Again, the guaranteed dsmash is still in play.

Pretty much, still ****.

I suppose thats true, but 7-3 is ridiculous, it's an almost impossible matchup.
Marth's 'new' chaingrab on Ness is like a Falco Chaingrab. The smash at the end is still painful, but it doesn't completely change the matchup.

Is Jiggs really at 5-5 on Marth?


Steel is kinda correct, Ness is trash, along with everyone (save few) in mid tier/low tier.
High tier and top tier is where it's at.

Spoiler

not underestimating her or anything

Its not 70-30, I believe its 65-35 or 67-33. Its around 2-1 because although Jigglypuff has the material to beat Marth, its very hard to do so. Pound and bair are too much rapage for it to be 70-30.

And the 1 move argument starts again.

 

[BacklashMarth]

Good point, if you don't change up your DI immediately, you'll not only be placing yourself in tipper range, you'll also be double-stick DIing away against a tipper fsmash.

Can you say self inflicted pwnage ftw?

 

[illinialex24]

Can you say self inflicted pwnage ftw?

Yes and thats why the matchup stays the same.

 

[Ref]

The forward smash does not Tipper, the down smash does not tipper either.

Also I found out you can just hold the two sticks diagonally.

And Pk fire isn't Ness' only projectile.

 

[Gaussis]

I love it when people argue about Ness's trashiness (pun very well intended) and have absolutely nothing to back up their points.

As stated before, Marth suffers from having a slight aerial disadvantage against Ness in the air to retreating fairs. He also loses on aerial mobilty.

Now that the long and suffering CG is gone, Ness can now incorporate his rather underestimated ground game. I will only state this once: yo-yos (mainly usmash) will work on Marth. Very well. Ftilt outprioritzes most of his ground attacks and will push him far back if necessary. Nair OOS keeps him away if he gets too close also (frame 4 startup).

Ness has three projectiles, each with its own use. PK Fire can be fanned but to little effect. Also, it disrupt much of what Marth can do. Flash is situational at best, not used at worst. Now for the main course, PKT. This projectile can be fanned by Marth's various attacks, except at one position: in the air under him. If he loses his second jump, Ness can set up near-guaranteed PKT2 (can't seem to pull of the "guaranteed" ones yet). Juggling for extra damage is also an option. Not a place where Marth likes to be due to an extremely laggy dair, counter not being reliable, and airdodge not being reliable.

What Marth has over Ness:
-Range on ground and some aerial departments
-Speed on ground
-Several lagless manuevers
-Strong "tippered" attacks
-Possible gimp (probable because he doesn't just pull out PKT, you still have his DJ to deal with)
-A situational guaranteed finish

This is 60:40, but since I still need to refine a few points in my argument, I'll say 65:35.

EDIT: I'm looking for several matches to prove or disproive my points above. I know Wi-fi is rather unreliable, but it's a start. So anyone willing to cooperate is appreciated.

 

[Zankoku]

Wifi is silly for Marth. You may as well be asking to play against a nerfed Ike.

I don't see how Ness can do much of anything with three projectiles that have a fair bit of startup and leave Ness relatively vulnerable. You're not going to be camping with them, and you're not going to be approaching with them. Well, not against any Marth with a decent reaction time, anyway.

If Ness relies too hard on OOS **** he's just asking to get frame-trapped with Dolphin Slash.

 

[Levitas]

Gaussis, so Ness's break is now to the level of LUCAS'S, and that's the reason you're claiming it went from 80:20 marth to 60:40 marth?

 

[Steel]

Well for one, ness is trash. Pretty much every character is unless you are top of top tier. No need to back it up except the fact that Ness isn't very good and doesn't have the tools to compete with the higher tier'd characters.

How are you going to incorporate this "underestimated" ground game when Marth can just outrange everything you have with a dtilt? I've said it before, Ness has very limited options against Marth's zoning. He can PK fire, which is very unsafe once Marth is inside it, and a dash grab which is pretty quick I'll admit.

You stated three projectiles and basically told us each is extremely situational and probably won't have much effect.

You listed what Marth has over Ness. So how does Ness compete with a character with better range, speed, and power?

Ness has nair OOS (frame 4 start up)? Cool, Marth has DS OOS (5 frame invincibility).

Anything else?

 

[Gaussis]

@ Ankoku: OOS is an option, but not necessarily a heavily relied one.

I don't see how Marth can fight through a properly placed PKT tail. Airdodging will only lead to PKT2, which is death above 40%. Either Marth stays and plays it safe or Marth risks a stock by trying to go through the tail. PK flash is situational. PK fire has spacing involved, aerial spacing that is as fast as Marth's running speed.

If wi-fi is silly for Marth, it's even moreso for Ness. PKT doesn't turn at it's closest angles, jump lag takes a bit to get used to, and punishing is hard. I only wanted to do it for learning things that I didn't know already.

@Levitas: What I am saying is that now that he lacks his CG, his ground game is usable again. It is very underestimated IMO. And I keep it at 65:35.

@Steel2nd: There are several things which you are wrong on. You say that MK is the only non-trash, correct. Why then do you argue about the trashiness of a character if 1) all characters except MK are trash and 2) its your opinion?

Dtilt doesn't reach bsticked fires. No risk involved.

PK fire has spacing value, so that isn't as situational as you say it is. PKT is never going to be situational. PKT2 however...

Marth lacks range in departments where he needs it. Same goes to speed. Power might be an issue here...

 

[∫unk]

Well for one, ness is trash. Pretty much every character is unless you are top of top tier. No need to back it up except the fact that Ness isn't very good and doesn't have the tools to compete with the higher tier'd characters.

How are you going to incorporate this "underestimated" ground game when Marth can just outrange everything you have with a dtilt? I've said it before, Ness has very limited options against Marth's zoning. He can PK fire, which is very unsafe once Marth is inside it, and a dash grab which is pretty quick I'll admit.

You stated three projectiles and basically told us each is extremely situational and probably won't have much effect.

You listed what Marth has over Ness. So how does Ness compete with a character with better range, speed, and power?

Ness has nair OOS (frame 4 start up)? Cool, Marth has DS OOS (5 frame invincibility).

Anything else?

This post should be under the definition of ****.

Ness still sucks sorry. Oh and the margin of error Marth has to for this matchup is so much larger than Ness. Ness has to do some crazy shenanigan to try and get out of grab release while all Marth does is spam A and have decent reaction time.

 

[Zankoku]

Why would Marth ever have to fight through a PKT tail? If he's playing it right, he should never be at so far a range that Ness can even begin to use ANY of his projectiles safely.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Give me a scenario where Marth would be forced to dodge PKT and if he did so he would eat PKT2.

I simply can't visualize it.

Anyway Marth can swat the PKT. That's always an option.

 

[Gaussis]

Give me a scenario where Marth would be forced to dodge PKT and if he did so he would eat PKT2.

I simply can't visualize it.

Anyway Marth can swat the PKT. That's always an option.

Can't swat the tail. I'm not good at making scenarios. Only setting them up through the game.

@Ankoku: Fthrow sets the perfect distance for PKT.

@Junkinthetrunk: For the last time, there is no grab-release CG.

 

[BacklashMarth]

Continuing from EL's post: Or marth could just shairdodge backwards then counter the PKT2 for some epic lulz.

 

[Zankoku]

Ness can fthrow Marth and try to shoot him with PK Thunder.

Marth can grab Ness and dsmash/fsmash him on release.

I wonder which is better?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Swat the ball itself. Not the tail. And are you saying that by the time Marth airdodge he wouldn't be able to dodge a PKT2. I find it hard to believe he wouldn't have enough time to counter PKT2 on reaction. Or at least....ya know..roll out of the way.

And if this is all Ness has then there is no way it's 60/40.

 

[Hype]

I just relized that ness ***** marth. proof.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=CDWHjkqgYt0

ps. read the description.

 

[Steel]

So like


How is this 60 40 again?

 

[Gaussis]

@Ankoku Only dsmash works. Me likee your attitude.

Also, why would Marth grab him when Marth has to go to him to get it whereas it's easier to attack?

Spoiler

This is why I'd prefer to show things because arguing sometimes inhibits learning when it's done theoretically.

And I said I'll keep it at 65:35.

 

[HeroMystic]

I just relized that ness ***** marth. proof.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=CDWHjkqgYt0

ps. read the description.

That Marth made me cry... and I don't even main as him...