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Marth vs __________ Help.

kevo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 25, 2011
Messages
241
Location
Minneapolis, MN
...okay so Im going to jump in here, based upon personal experience, I find Falco to be the more difficult MU because yes he shuts down our ability to move around as we should, Interupts our combos better, CAN kill us easier then Fox(I mean with our recovery, once they laser us below the stage, you might as well say **** it.) Where as Fox, does ahve many options, but his ability to interupt combos isnt as great, and he cant shut down our recovery with lasers. Yes he can U-Throw to U-air us to death, but I feel(personally) that you can get around that.
I also find edgeguarding Fox more forgiving than edgeguarding Falco. Miss the f-smash and get hit my Firefalco? Oops, now I'm tumbling across the stage. Miss fair off the stage and get hit by side b? Oops, meteor spiked.

I dunno, I'm really bad at the Falco MU
 

makoforce

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 25, 2009
Messages
705
Location
Inkster,Michigan
^ 1.) marths need to stop acting like f smash is his only edgeguard move. Going offstage with marth is not hard to do nd you cn just swat them with fair

2.) Can we discuss the ditto?
 

Bing

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 8, 2010
Messages
4,885
Location
St.Catharines, Ontario, Canada
Im alright with them, I just play "whack as ****" lots of spaced Aerials. Somehow it works.

My last tournament I played a Marth who had 3 moves. Counter, F-smash and the occasional fair and it was very annoying...
 

Archangel

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
6,453
Location
Wilmington, Delaware
NNID
combat22386
So I've been working on Marth Dittos. Just finished a reel of good friendlies but still feel like I have no idea what I'm doing minus a few things I've picked up.
 

Mahie

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 18, 2007
Messages
1,067
Location
Lille, France
You wanna share them? I don't know marth dittos much either. I know you can uthrow utilt @8% or something and that's pretty much it.
 

BeLia

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 16, 2008
Messages
21
in dittos you can fthrow twice (or three time if the stage is big enough / they miss di, however I think it is possible to jump between the 2nd and the 3rd, not sure) at 0% ; fsmash if they miss the di, then uthrow, and uptilt if they don't jump right away. If they do, you still can fair to rack up percent, then upair juggle.
 

Archangel

Smash Hero
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I learned that you can SideB an improperly spaced Nair. Also you can Fthrow to Fsmash-utilt-Ftilt-Dtilt(rarely)-Nair- & Fair. All DI dependent but othertimes you can just Tech chase. Or do a Dthrow when the Marth isn't expecting it and Fsmash them or pursue them for continual tech chasing.
 

Bing

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 8, 2010
Messages
4,885
Location
St.Catharines, Ontario, Canada
Marth Dittos are simple, it basically comes down to spacing and patience.

Also Im having a ton of issues because my Marth is like.. MASS AGGRO. Which is the wrong way to play Marth I know just its how I enjoy playing.. its just getting me combo'd hard


If you space your nair properly, you can nair to pivot f-smash.
 

Beat!

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
3,214
Location
Uppsala, Sweden
Fsmash and pivot Fsmash is **** in the ditto (the former is not very good in the neutral game, though)

DD grab beats SH aerial,

SH aerial beats Dtilt/Running dtilt,

and Dtilt/running dtilt beats DD grab

Fthrow should generally lead into fsmash if they DI badly, and tech chase if they DI away. If they DI away and you notice/know they'll end up off stage, then dash attack will almost always connect

Fair *****

So does more fair

Juggling is fairly easy, as long as you stay aware of the occasional counter

If they're just a little bit off stage and still have their double jump, stay in a threatening area and be prepared for the possibility that they'll use it (the double jump) really early. If you can anticipate it and hit them out of it, it's pretty much a stock

Dtilt/Fsmash/grab the ledge is basically all you need for edge guarding. If you wanna be fancy sometimes you can go for the hard read and follow them way down into a reverse up-B

Spot dodge can be good if used sparingly

Recovering is hard. Try to sweet spot the ledge if possible

blergh
 

BeLia

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 16, 2008
Messages
21
I'd like to have some tips on the falco matchup, I really don't understand it. During the neutral position i dont know what to do, lasers kill my approaches, if I try to use platforms i'll get hit by a nair or a bair, and shielding will get me grabed or shined to death. The only thing I really have success in is shielding and fair oos, or counter ; I counter a lot vs falco because i really dont know what to do, and it's the best thing i've found yet (especially vs agro falcos that play mindlessly).

Basically, the problem is I really don't know what do to in the neutral position. I feel I just have to wait an opening, is this the only thing marth can do ? I've read emblemlord's guide about falco's lasers, but it doesn't help me much.
 

Mahie

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 18, 2007
Messages
1,067
Location
Lille, France
If you can work on your powershield, it'd definitely make for a great weapon in the match-up. After a while the Falco will just want to completely remove the laser component from the game, and it makes it way easier after that.

If the Falco lasers too high (i.e. above crouch height) it's a free PS so keep that in mind even if you think your timing isn't great, and profit from it.
 

Beat!

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
3,214
Location
Uppsala, Sweden
WD OOS *****.
Powershielding *****.
Don't overcommit when he's cornered.
Always punish rolls.
Never miss an edge guard/gimp.
 

Fregadero

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 6, 2011
Messages
389
I consider myself decent at edgeguarding for someone at my skill level, but I can't seem to get down edgeguarding sheik other than edgehogging. Any tips?
 

BeLia

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 16, 2008
Messages
21
Go inner fair her far from the ledge, or backair.
Or juste edgehog and fsmash, theres not much you can do.
Still be carefull if you go far from the ledge edgeguard her, she can fair you and that hurts.
 

metroid1117

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 1, 2005
Messages
3,786
Location
Chester, IL
Hey guys, I didn't want to make a new thread just for some advice, so I thought I'd bump this one instead. I have some trouble with the Falco match-up; I know how to reliably gimp Falco, but I don't know how to get around his lasers outside of powershielding them back. This set is sort of old, but this is the last recorded match I've had against a Falco. I take the first match on Yoshi's fairly convincingly, so I'm specifically looking for advice on the 2nd match (which starts at 2:37) in 4:41; in this part of the match, I go on for a stock and a half without a powershield, and I couldn't take down his last stock. The commentary at 4:47 pretty much sums up my strategy against Falco, which I highly doubt works in high levels of play. Can I get some advice on how to get in without powershielding?
 

Mahie

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 18, 2007
Messages
1,067
Location
Lille, France
In my opinion, you had trouble taking his last stock because your techchases aren't good enough. He missed his tech like 3 times in a row, and 5:22 especially was a free tipper.

Also, I'd suggest not getting in if you have the momentum and a two stock lead. Just run around, pressure him, force him to get to the upper platforms or something, disrupt his rhytm. Or just walk in like a boss and fsmash through the laser, he's a bit close when he does it sometimes, and the laser will cancel your move if you miss.
 

BairJew

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Messages
269
Location
Seminole, FL
Toughest time with Marth v. Marth I was given tips to never try aerial movement to pressure your opponents shield or you just get grabbed out of your SH fair or nair, and instead apply SP using dtilt, DD grabs, jabs to stay grounded until you see and opening. Are there any other tips?
Also Marth v. Peach, I am honestly quite lost on what I should be doing in this mu...
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
Puff is a challenge of how creative your walling can be, I think. And a massive trial in conditioning her when she's on the ground. Her moveset is pretty narrow, so the more tricks, proficiency with moves outside of fair, and even gimmicks you have the more successful your wall will be against her. Puff doesn't like it when people are creative because it means she has to have subtle variations of relatively simple things, which is harder than using different moves for different situations altogether.
/agree.

i rarely post..but this one shouldn't be missed..all these fair only marths get *****...though honestly pp's marth vs puff wasn't as much about walling at all as just dashdancing extremely well

however, what KK is describing is how i tend to play the matchup at least. if you just fair it's extremely easy for the puff to guess where and when you are going in and get inside your range with a bair..then she has the momentum she needs to get inside your guard and do what she wants (upair, grab, pound, etc).

mix in sh reverse wave lands or even forward waveland into fsmash if they are boxing you out too hard, sh empty hops into ftilts, the random undershot dash attack (so you can't be CC rested and only eat a bair at worst), and your game against puff will improve a lot
 

PolishSmash

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 17, 2011
Messages
210
Location
New York, U.S.A.
For some reason when I fight Pikachu it's like fighting Jiggs. So frikin gay and boring. Anyone feel that way too? I don't know what it is, but its just SO boring. Especially when the Pikachu is campy.
 

Archangel

Smash Hero
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Dec 4, 2008
Messages
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Wilmington, Delaware
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combat22386
For some reason when I fight Pikachu it's like fighting Jiggs. So frikin gay and boring. Anyone feel that way too? I don't know what it is, but its just SO boring. Especially when the Pikachu is campy.
it Depends. I have some vids of me vs Pika. I'll put them up sometime maybe it can help. I have only been playing against this new pika player for like 2 months though but I've adapted to Pikachu. It can be gay you just have to be careful.
 

PolishSmash

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 17, 2011
Messages
210
Location
New York, U.S.A.
it Depends. I have some vids of me vs Pika. I'll put them up sometime maybe it can help. I have only been playing against this new pika player for like 2 months though but I've adapted to Pikachu. It can be gay you just have to be careful.
Oh ok those videos would help thanks man, I''m really not trying on focusing just to beat Pikachu's because I'm trying to get my tech skill down, which is my main priority at the moment but maybe these videos will help me with Pikachu's in the future as the metagame evolves and more Pikachus appear.
 

Planet Piss

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 22, 2008
Messages
233
Location
Meridian, ID
Falcon: Jab him when he approaches. If he dashes back, assume that he's coming back and jab again. Don't jab blindly, and expect him to roll behind you at any time. If he tries to arial you, you can OP it with a jab. He'll get mad pissed eventually. He's fast, but you have a big sword. Avoid grabbing him (unless you're the **** at TCing and have lots of patience, because you can grab him six times and he'll still be around 20%, while he can 0-death you at any time). Bottom line: when he's coming at you, swing at him BUT DO NOT FSMASH UNLESS YOU KNOW IT WILL CONNECT. He's also extremely easy to keep offstage.

Sheik: Stay away from her hitboxes. Pick a ledge or a platform, and if you're above her, avoid uairs. She's easy to combo, so 0-deaths aren't very difficult (at least as much as they are with, say, Falco or Falcon). If you're on the ledge and she's recovering over you (to get on stage), WL past her and fsmash (or utilt/usmash for slashiness if she's on a platform). I don't know a lot about this MU, but it's pretty overblown and all you need to do is space very well, don't **** up on combos, and avoid needles. Shiek starts to win when you walk into her grabs and tilts. One way to space/zone well is to get near her and start SELECTIVELY fairing and nairing with the occasional uair or tilt/jab, using both full and short hops. NEVER start jumping AT her with sh double fairs or whatever; make sure to only acts as a wall of sword so that she may not pass/ do what she wants. Keep her guessing. Sheik doesn't have the same control over Marth as he can have over her, and as I said, she begins to win when the Marth can't play a good defense/space game. As a side note, well-timed ccing/light shield use can save you from getting ****ed up. One ftilt is all it takes with this *****.

Falco: I need help with this one as well, but for the most part, once you get past the lasers, he's like a ******** version of Fox. How you do that is up to you, but whatever you do, don't stand there and shield as he hops toward you. Learn to shield drop consistently and you can spend more time hiding on platforms. Learn to switch to lightshield as often as possible. Shield pressure is nothing to a light shield; you just slide away/off the edge, or the Falco gets tired and grabs. Countering is a GREAT strategy, but you need to read your opponents in order to pull off successful and consistent counters. There is no reason why you should get hit by Falco when he's on the ledge. Predict his Ledge behaviors and you'll end up killing him when he tries a dair or double laser.

Jiggs: Don't walk into bairs or other arials. Keep swingin' and stay far away from above her at all costs. With good reaction time (on your part), this can be one of Jiggs' worst MUs, because there isn't a single thing that she can do that can't be OP'd by your sword. Since she's pretty impossible to combo, it's mostly just about racking up damage and remaining patient. She's really light, so grabs are great on her. Randomly placed f/bthrows can lead directly into a tipper (or other maneuver) if she ASDI's poorly. Also, surprise her with a followup WD grab after an fthrow sometimes.

Peach: Pretty easy. Rack up damage with fthrow chains (until she grows wise), learn to catch turnips, and fair/nair her offstage and upb/dair her while she's over the edge. A Marth with consistent combos can be a very scary thing to a Peach. Random fthrow fsmashes are too good. Also, if you crouch your fsmash while peach is stunned from the grab, you'll have a higher chance of tipper. If she DIs, you may be able to WD fsmash. Pay attention to her float habits and smack her out of the air when she tries her dumb ****. Once her % is too high for consecutive hits, it's all about how good your defense is. Keep fairing and uairing, and look for any utilt possibilities. Uthrow kill if you have to.

Fox: The favorite of many Marths. He's like a little toy that you can throw around, and you'll win if you don't **** up. A missed l-cancel, getting stuck in shine, or a bad recovery job can all result in the death of the Fox, so get good at punishing and this MU is extremely simple.

Marth: Don't get hit.

Additional stuff:
Lightshield often
Learn ALL of your oos options
Learn to counter properly
Observe how Marths such as M2K can systematically eliminate opponents' options
DD whenever possible, and WL/WD more than you run. You can do any attack/lightsheid while sliding, and running around limits your options and makes you easier to read.
Keep swingin' and stay consistent
Be smart
With floaties at high %, be really gay and grab them only to knee them into a higher %. When they break away, try for a regrab and do this until you can throw them through the ceiling or kill them with a fair.

That's all I got.
 

Archangel

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For now my most recent Marth vs Pika matches have been epicly corrupted......I'll find some older ones...burried somewhere...
 

MasterShake

Smash Lord
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
1,911
Location
Sacramento, CA
This is what I do vs. Marth. Shield, spotdodge, they whiff a grab, dash behind them, they whiff grab again, I grab them.

And then everything else is a guessing game.
 

TheCrimsonBlur

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
Messages
3,406
Location
LA, CA near Santa Monica
This is what I do vs. Marth. Shield, spotdodge, they whiff a grab, dash behind them, they whiff grab again, I grab them.

And then everything else is a guessing game.
Yeah, running through them and pivot grabbing is a very common gimmick in those 50/50 spotdodge/grab situations.

The best way to beat it when someone does it on you is to just turn around and grab lol. Looks really funny.
 

Archangel

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Marth's ability to dash through things is quite funny. Perhaps that's why so many characters get away with Dsmashes on him.
 

RAVENx08

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 21, 2011
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33
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Pharr TX
3DS FC
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Marth Vs. Link

im getting out prioritized on my N-air and spammed items i can approch since a link's fair apparently beats mine what do i do??
 

Archangel

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Wilmington, Delaware
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im getting out prioritized on my N-air and spammed items i can approch since a link's fair apparently beats mine what do i do??
It's called Mind-games. Use them. The great part about having a good option is that it's almost always overused. With that come luring and baiting. Link's Nair is beat by well placed fairs if they are above you can Uair or even Utilt them out of the sky. as for bombs, Catch them ;). The Rangs....don't ever approach right away after they toss one. If so get behind them and try to get a grab or something. It's almost always a trap....I'll think of more later.
 

Shadow Huan

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 31, 2008
Messages
2,224
Location
Springfield, MA
marth vs link pretty much revolves around how well you as marth deal with the stuff that link throws at you. Learn to swat the boomerang and swat\catch the bombs and that'll give you defensive options against the spam.

On the ground, The Master Sword's range is good and you have to respect that. Treat the spacing vs link like another marth who can't tip you back. In the air, Link's nair is GREAT, you can beat it but only if you tip. The danged thing even combos into itself, but if you DI it properly (up and away iirc) you should be able to escape it taking only 2 hits at the very least. As long as you space and time it properly, every one of your air attacks beats all of links (except your dair, it'll trade unless i'm mistaken). But remember, it's a spacing battle, respect the nair!

Edgeguarding link is like a feild day with marth, you have a ton of options and all of them work. You can make link very sad lol. Dtilt works, fsmash works, counter works, ledgehop dair works. But despite that, getting the kill really depends on how creative link forces you to be because he has some pretty good recovery mix ups and he's got really tricky edgeguards against you if he manages to trick his way onto the stage past you and turns the tables.

Play smart and safe and you should do fine. There are very few well known link players; i only know of two in my region and both of them happen to be pretty good against marth. I'll be sure to get some matches in against both of them next time we're all at the same tournament and alter what i feel i got wrong.

Thoughts fellow marths?

:phone:
 

linkoninja

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 26, 2009
Messages
459
Location
Los Angeles
Marth dittoes: how to deal with them?
I'm ALWAYS getting ***** by other Marth's. I have an easier time going Falcon against Marth than Marth dittos. I find Falcon's speed much easier to use than Marth's range in this matchup. I have trouble comboing and outspacing other Marths.
 

Beat!

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
3,214
Location
Uppsala, Sweden
Fsmash and pivot Fsmash is **** in the ditto (the former is not very good in the neutral game, though)

DD grab beats SH aerial,

SH aerial beats Dtilt/Running dtilt,

and Dtilt/running dtilt beats DD grab

Fthrow should generally lead into fsmash if they DI badly, and tech chase if they DI away. If they DI away and you notice/know they'll end up off stage, then dash attack will almost always connect

Fair *****

So does more fair

Juggling is fairly easy, as long as you stay aware of the occasional counter

If they're just a little bit off stage and still have their double jump, stay in a threatening area and be prepared for the possibility that they'll use it (the double jump) really early. If you can anticipate it and hit them out of it, it's pretty much a stock

Dtilt/Fsmash/grab the ledge is basically all you need for edge guarding. If you wanna be fancy sometimes you can go for the hard read and follow them way down into a reverse up-B

Spot dodge can be good if used sparingly

Recovering is hard. Try to sweet spot the ledge if possible

blergh
10characters
 

Inty17

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 27, 2011
Messages
320
Location
Rochester, NY or Pasadena, CA
is it ever appropriate to use any throw other than fthrow in the marth ditto? I know uthrow is sometimes an utilt combo starter, but are bthrow and dthrow viable options?

Also, can side b do anything? Other than humiliating, off the ledge m2k-style spike shenanigans?
 
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