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Marth on the Ledge: Traps Against You and Your Opponent
- Thread starter Steel
- Start date
I hate Marth on the ledge, he sucks so hard >.<
Steel, maybe put more emphasis on jabbing Falco's phantasm (I actually just found this out -_-) and doing dolphin slash out of shield on ledge attacks? DS OoS is a great defensive->offensive tactic which can be ideal in these situations. And I know counter isn't very reliable, easily punished, and there are better options but still maybe mention countering ledge attacks, just for the sake of it being an option?
The first half (Marth on the ledge) didn't so much talk about safely getting back on stage as much as, "If you do this, this is what'll happen and you're screwed". Ledge hopping to fair, nair, or uair can work well if you can space it right. At higher %'s, if you ledge hop and land an uair you have time to safely get back on stage and put yourself in a good position to start following up with utilts or more uairs.
On a more specific note, sometimes when an Ike tries to edgeguard me with Eruption I drop down or ledge hop and space myself right so I can dolphin slash straight into his face and not sweetspot the ledge. The invincibility frames can save you from Eruption and 1 of 3 things can happen:
1) he gets dolphin slashed in the face and you have time to get on stage
2) you miss and get punished by Ike (terrible thing to have happen)
3) you don't space it right and simply grab the ledge again and regain your initial invincibility frames.
I'm not saying these are completely safe things that you should try doing constantly. These are just some options for some situations that can work every now and then when your opponent isn't expecting it.
o.O
just a couple thoughts.
Steel, maybe put more emphasis on jabbing Falco's phantasm (I actually just found this out -_-) and doing dolphin slash out of shield on ledge attacks? DS OoS is a great defensive->offensive tactic which can be ideal in these situations. And I know counter isn't very reliable, easily punished, and there are better options but still maybe mention countering ledge attacks, just for the sake of it being an option?
The first half (Marth on the ledge) didn't so much talk about safely getting back on stage as much as, "If you do this, this is what'll happen and you're screwed". Ledge hopping to fair, nair, or uair can work well if you can space it right. At higher %'s, if you ledge hop and land an uair you have time to safely get back on stage and put yourself in a good position to start following up with utilts or more uairs.
On a more specific note, sometimes when an Ike tries to edgeguard me with Eruption I drop down or ledge hop and space myself right so I can dolphin slash straight into his face and not sweetspot the ledge. The invincibility frames can save you from Eruption and 1 of 3 things can happen:
1) he gets dolphin slashed in the face and you have time to get on stage
2) you miss and get punished by Ike (terrible thing to have happen)
3) you don't space it right and simply grab the ledge again and regain your initial invincibility frames.
I'm not saying these are completely safe things that you should try doing constantly. These are just some options for some situations that can work every now and then when your opponent isn't expecting it.
o.O
just a couple thoughts.
Darxmarth23
Smash Champion
The stall is a good idea.
i sould stall forward fast fall nair. cancel second hit and go straight into dancing blade.
i sould stall forward fast fall nair. cancel second hit and go straight into dancing blade.
comments in pink
Maybe I'm missing it but I don't see where you said to ds oos. I see the picture of Marth doing it but I don't think you said it.
Yeah, people can figure it out on their own and test out their own options to see what works for them but then what's the point of a guide like this? Like I said, you pretty much covered everything Marth can do ledge-wise, I'm just saying it might be useful to emphasize some things or make "obvious" statements for people who don't know.
And nvm about dolphin slashing eruption. I thought Marth had longer invincibility frames time-wise. I know it's the first 5 frames but I wasn't sure about where exactly he gets them. Guess it was always just bad timing for both me and Ike -_-
Yeah, people can figure it out on their own and test out their own options to see what works for them but then what's the point of a guide like this? Like I said, you pretty much covered everything Marth can do ledge-wise, I'm just saying it might be useful to emphasize some things or make "obvious" statements for people who don't know.
And nvm about dolphin slashing eruption. I thought Marth had longer invincibility frames time-wise. I know it's the first 5 frames but I wasn't sure about where exactly he gets them. Guess it was always just bad timing for both me and Ike -_-
OmegaXF
Smash Ace
This thread is full of win.
10 wins!!
10 wins!!
Darxmarth23
Smash Champion
What about ledgehop to airdodge?
is that okay?
is that okay?
ZHMT
Smash Lord
Its a good option, just dont do it every time lol.
Darxmarth23
Smash Champion
Remzi
formerly VaBengal
Anyone else use the ledgedrop to fair? You strike about a foot past the ledge, and if it doesn't hit, it at least helps to clear the ledge for you to give you some breathing room.
Martselsoep
Smash Cadet
And what about the possibility of dropping down doing upB hitting the opponent while simultaniously grabbing the ledge.
Effect: the opponent will be knocked back, not much, but probably enough to make a more safer jump from the edge or something like that
Effect: the opponent will be knocked back, not much, but probably enough to make a more safer jump from the edge or something like that
Punishment Divine
Smash Champion
That's another option. Chances are if you hit them with it, though, they weren't standing at a safe enough distance or shielding to limit your options, anyways. And then there's also the fact that it can degrade your UpB. Nevertheless, if it works it works
Also, yeah I use ledgedrop fair Bengalz. Mostly cause you can be invincible while you do it. I also use ledgedrop uair sometimes.
Darxmarth23
Smash Champion
Blad01
Smash Lord
Marth can also Ftilt to FSmash the second part of Falco's Phantasm (the first part has invinvibility frames).
That's why I said it might be a good idea to include things like this Steel!
You can jab his phantasm. Just found this out and it works well for more setups cause of the low knockback. And typically jabbing someone can get them in range for a tipper fsmash or tilt. Jab hits on frame 4 while ftilt hits on 7 IIRC so if you're worried about speed then jab is the better choice but ftilt has more range. So your choice.
Dolphin Slash gets virtually all of its knockback after like 2 dancing blades, which every Marth should be abusing. So that's okay
Double post, just saw this.
Not really sure what this means. You don't get invincibility frames from ledge dropping? If timed and spaced wrong you can easily get edgeguarded.
feardragon64
Smash Champion
Odigo, firstly you don't get new invincibility frames from ledgedropping, but basically you grab the ledge and quickly ledgedrop before the frames run out.
Secondly, I understand why someone might double post to bump an old topic for a legitimate purpose. They might even double post if they started a new thread or something and want to have some reserved posts so that they can edit future information into it because it's some sort of compendium. But why on earth would you double post two minutes between posts? There is no point to that other than giving yourself a post count ++; Please use the edit button next time. I know it feels nice to see your post count go up, but it's just unnecessary clutter.
Secondly, I understand why someone might double post to bump an old topic for a legitimate purpose. They might even double post if they started a new thread or something and want to have some reserved posts so that they can edit future information into it because it's some sort of compendium. But why on earth would you double post two minutes between posts? There is no point to that other than giving yourself a post count ++; Please use the edit button next time. I know it feels nice to see your post count go up, but it's just unnecessary clutter.
Cloud Cleaver
Smash Journeyman
Me = Three-day old Marthist.
This thread = helpful as Hell.
Thanks.
Is there much use for the Shield Breaker out of a ledgehop? A lot of people like to shield the get-up attack, and this would suitably punish them, especially if you grabbed the edge again thereafter.
This thread = helpful as Hell.
Thanks.
Is there much use for the Shield Breaker out of a ledgehop? A lot of people like to shield the get-up attack, and this would suitably punish them, especially if you grabbed the edge again thereafter.
smasher?o.0
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 4, 2008
- Messages
- 218
no it wouldn't be of use because it will take to long or they will shield it
Palpi
Smash Hero
Awesome thread. Further proves how spacing is such a necessity for Marth.
Punishment Divine
Smash Champion
Uh dude...You kinda WANT them to shield it LOL
Yeah you could probably use it as an uber mixup, not to safe, though.
Also, if you drop away from the ledge and fair, you do an invincible, hitting through the stage fair. Very useful. and can just UpB back onto the ledge.
Darxmarth23
Smash Champion
Punishment Divine
Smash Champion
lol just kinda pointing out the obvious.
Why would you not want them to shield a move called ****ing Shieldbreaker?
Darxmarth23
Smash Champion
takeurlife2
Smash Ace
i like to drop down and uair their shield, repeat, then it is usually low enough to drop down double jump into shield breaker.
i can pull this off about once a game vs someone ive never done it on before.
i can pull this off about once a game vs someone ive never done it on before.
∫unk
Smash Master
practice against a smart player playing snake, dk, and mk.
everyone else's ledge traps are just weaker versions of what these guys can do to you.
everyone else's ledge traps are just weaker versions of what these guys can do to you.
Punishment Divine
Smash Champion
Ugh, I can attest to this. My friend's DK makes it so ****ing annoying to come back and then get off the ledge >_>
TKD+ITA+Mar=
Smash Ace
Sorry for the bump, but I have a question/idea.
What I have found useful for ledge traps recently for stages without platforms near the edges, is a sliding usmash.
If they roll, they end up at the hitbox behind you, if they do a simple get up, they get hit by the front hitbox, and if they ledgejump, they get hit by the tip.
Obviously, you have to predict when they try to get up, although this usually isn't too hard. I think you might be able to space it so you won't be hit by a possible ledge attack.
What I have found useful for ledge traps recently for stages without platforms near the edges, is a sliding usmash.
If they roll, they end up at the hitbox behind you, if they do a simple get up, they get hit by the front hitbox, and if they ledgejump, they get hit by the tip.
Obviously, you have to predict when they try to get up, although this usually isn't too hard. I think you might be able to space it so you won't be hit by a possible ledge attack.
feardragon64
Smash Champion
The problem is think of it like this. Sliding usmash means you have to be a decent distance away from the edge. If you're not, you'll get hit by get-up attack or a drop down attack. If you space yourself enough, that gives them the chance to back out of their commitment(i.e. ledge drop fair or nair when they see you running at them). It could work but if they have decent reaction time, you're likely to get hit or just reset the situation but with you in the lag of usmash and standing RIGHT on the edge.
Anyways, watching a movie while I typed that so tell me if I was unclear about it.
TKD+ITA+Mar=
Smash Ace
No don't worry, it is clear and legitimate.
Oh, but just to let let you know, the ending point of the running usmash [or now that I am thinking about, just a normal usmash], is about a character or two's length away from the edge, not right on it. So that way one foot hit's them if they try use get up, and the other hits them if they roll. But you are right in saying that it leaves you vulnerable to attacks. I just like it because it works against get up, roll, and ledgejump.
So that may or may not change some of it.
Oh, but just to let let you know, the ending point of the running usmash [or now that I am thinking about, just a normal usmash], is about a character or two's length away from the edge, not right on it. So that way one foot hit's them if they try use get up, and the other hits them if they roll. But you are right in saying that it leaves you vulnerable to attacks. I just like it because it works against get up, roll, and ledgejump.
So that may or may not change some of it.
feardragon64
Smash Champion
^Meh, I still wouldn't rely on it. It's alright to use every so often, but honestly it's really just not dependable.
Anyways, at least your thinking. Try not to use it too often though.
Anyways, at least your thinking. Try not to use it too often though.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Perfect Shield?
Anyways, good stuff, usmash for ledge game is really at most a mix up, not a totaly reliable way of dealing with someone on the ledge per se (especially if you're going for a stage spike).
legion598
Smash Ace
what about super planking with Fair>dolphin slash auto grab is this a good tactic?
ye s if you like planking
legion598
Smash Ace
well i dont necissarily like planking but its a good way to be random
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
Can you explain how Roy_R kept getting fsmashes on his opponent when they were on the edge.
ZHMT
Smash Lord
Wait for their invincibility frames to wear off, then fsmash and it always tips.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
That's all? It looked like he was doing something else i'll re-watch it make just to double check what he was doing.