Marth Matchup Guide v0.4 (Last Update: 09/21/11)

[JediSange]

Ugh, I did horrible vs Mango

LOL

D=

**** was hilarious. He got there like, all late to R3 pools... and i saw him on the way in. I was like "Dude people have been looking for you... Plank is saying he's going to DQ you if you don't hurry up." He's just like "I'll tell plank to suck my d." Then just shows up, 2-0s everyone.

So ****.

 

[Juno McGrath]

Okay im subbing into this

Just a few inputs

Falco is not 60-40 marth IMO its 55:45 at worst or even at best

Jiggs... Idk maybe your on to something

but Peach gets rapeeeeed by marth its one of my favorite matchups.

Ken comboing her is honestly the easiest thing in the world, as long as you can get the fair.

Baiting her down smash is fun, shes easy to tipper cause shes sort of wide.

also, Forward b> Uptilt is fun to kill her with (problem being we cant really kill her with it until 145 plus percent)

Glad to be a part of this thread hopefully I can learn how to fight fox/falcon soon!

 

[JediSange]

Thanks for the contribution Snap :D And yeah, the Falco matchup is going to be changed soon^^; I learned a lot from Pound 5. I'm of the opinion that it's in Falco's favor in the current meta-game, but have some insight into that as well.

I've just been busy with school work this week and Spring Break is around the corner. It will get a MASSIVE overhaul soon, no worries :D

 

[Juno McGrath]

I play frequently with two very good falcos (darksyde and PP) and i still believe marth wins. the only stage i see it being as bad as 60/40 is FD.

I think its close to even though if not even on a few stages.

 

[ILM]

I am of the opinion that Marth/Falco is largely stage dependant, with it going even on Marth's worse stages like Dreamland, maybe 55:45 Marth on most neutrals and 60:40 Marth on FD, as Snap said. It really comes down to the fact that Marth has so many options to deal with Falco's approach, and when he gets even one hit in, he has the capability to turn it into a stock. From a grab, everyone knows Marth is incredibly capable of destroying space animals, as M2K was once wont to do.

Falco, however, also has a good number of options, but really, Marth can deal with most if not all of them. Lasers prove to be little more than a nuisance as play level increases. Powershielding, for one, isn't overly hard to get, powershield->grab being a staple. Dash attack cuts under high lasers, and can also set up for combos.

Falco's shield pressure is a huge part of the matchup, of course. Pillaring can destroy a Marth who doesn't think through his options to it, since a pillar can lead to a poke which leads to Falco getting a hundred percent tacked onto Marth, and then a kill. That is Falco's power, in his comboing. However, one pretty simple option that works wonder to deal with it, in addition to choosing when to grab based on dair timing as is mentioned in the first post, is lightshielding. Lightshielding really messes with Falco's pillaring game, since it effectively pushes Marth out of the range of his shine with a light enough shield, leaving you capable of grabbing him out of it if your shield was the right size.

I'm sort of not sure why I typed this up, it just seemed like a good idea at the time I guess.

 

[JediSange]

I am of the opinion that Marth/Falco is largely stage dependant, with it going even on Marth's worse stages like Dreamland, maybe 55:45 Marth on most neutrals and 60:40 Marth on FD, as Snap said. It really comes down to the fact that Marth has so many options to deal with Falco's approach, and when he gets even one hit in, he has the capability to turn it into a stock. From a grab, everyone knows Marth is incredibly capable of destroying space animals, as M2K was once wont to do.

Falco, however, also has a good number of options, but really, Marth can deal with most if not all of them. Lasers prove to be little more than a nuisance as play level increases. Powershielding, for one, isn't overly hard to get, powershield->grab being a staple. Dash attack cuts under high lasers, and can also set up for combos.

Falco's shield pressure is a huge part of the matchup, of course. Pillaring can destroy a Marth who doesn't think through his options to it, since a pillar can lead to a poke which leads to Falco getting a hundred percent tacked onto Marth, and then a kill. That is Falco's power, in his comboing. However, one pretty simple option that works wonder to deal with it, in addition to choosing when to grab based on dair timing as is mentioned in the first post, is lightshielding. Lightshielding really messes with Falco's pillaring game, since it effectively pushes Marth out of the range of his shine with a light enough shield, leaving you capable of grabbing him out of it if your shield was the right size.

I'm sort of not sure why I typed this up, it just seemed like a good idea at the time I guess.

Really awesome feedback, and I appreciate it. I love that Marth's are commenting and giving positive feedback. I didn't even think about lightshielding. That will definitely be included in this guide. Thank you very, very much =D

 

[ILM]

I'm not entirely sure how it translates to higher level play, since I am obviously not very established in the Smash community, but I can't really think of a downside at this point other than lightshielding TOO lightly and not being able to get the grab. And yet, you'll STILL at least be out of shine range and able to reset to a more neutral position.

 

[Signia]

Just wavedash out of the shield pressure. Right after the shine, guess where the falco will go and WD away from him. If successful, this will put you in a great position, and it works against all followups except ones that you can shieldgrab. But Shine-grab will still catch you; if that starts happening you'll need to buffer roll once in a while.

"pillaring" and shield pressure doesn't last long against against an attentive Marth player. All it does is force Marth to WD or buffer roll away if he is unsure of the falco's timings, both of which leave him open if he guesses wrong.

 

[t-iceman]

I would say that marth fox is in fox's favor in mu theory just because perfect fox beats perfect marth any day. It's not 06 anymore. Fox's have ways to get out of our grab chains (shine out of up throw at about 25, not sure who wins this frame wise but I think if they di slightly behind marth turnaround grab doesn't get there in time+ smash di on the uptilt at 30% can get you out of the chain). Other than that I think both characters can do a lot to eachother an the matchup is still fairly even. 55-45 fox's favor IMO. Idk maybe I only think this because I play with silent wolf and eggz

 

[JediSange]

I would say that marth fox is in fox's favor in mu theory just because perfect fox beats perfect marth any day. It's not 06 anymore. Fox's have ways to get out of our grab chains (shine out of up throw at about 25, not sure who wins this frame wise but I think if they di slightly behind marth turnaround grab doesn't get there in time+ smash di on the uptilt at 30% can get you out of the chain). Other than that I think both characters can do a lot to eachother an the matchup is still fairly even. 55-45 fox's favor IMO. Idk maybe I only think this because I play with silent wolf and eggz

The chaingrab is unescapable lol. Frame perfect Marth wins. Although, I do agree with you that Fox in the current meta game has so many solutions to it. After the second pivot grab you start utilting Fox. I'm not 100% certain on the DI options of the Fox, but to my knowledge you can't Smash DI grabs. Even if you can, M2K will chain throw any Fox until they're blue in the face... so I know it can be done, I think there are just DI options that escape me at the moment.

Largely, whether it's in fox's favor, marth's favor, or even... the point to take away from it is not the percents, but rather the idea that "Hey, in this matchup, we both get about the same amount of punishment off of mistakes... and here is what that looks like"

 

[FoxLisk]

marth can reverse utilt you at 25 and then if you were holding down to shine you get killed. maybe an SDI away on that utilt would get you out... but that doesnt.

 

[stopNstart]

you can't SDI a throw.

 

[phi1ny3]

I would say that marth fox is in fox's favor in mu theory just because perfect fox beats perfect marth any day. It's not 06 anymore. Fox's have ways to get out of our grab chains (shine out of up throw at about 25, not sure who wins this frame wise but I think if they di slightly behind marth turnaround grab doesn't get there in time+ smash di on the uptilt at 30% can get you out of the chain). Other than that I think both characters can do a lot to eachother an the matchup is still fairly even. 55-45 fox's favor IMO. Idk maybe I only think this because I play with silent wolf and eggz

3ggz (antinamesearch) thinks the MU is even.

I need help with the C. Falcon MU, Marth is complete combo fodder when up against Falcon, and I got wrecked by a good one at a recent tournament. I'm sure it's evenish probably, but if someone could make a brief breakdown on what to look for in the MU, that'd be great.

 

[Juno McGrath]

marth fox is pretty.... even ish.

 

[edgeluca]

3ggz (antinamesearch) thinks the MU is even.

I need help with the C. Falcon MU, Marth is complete combo fodder when up against Falcon, and I got wrecked by a good one at a recent tournament. I'm sure it's evenish probably, but if someone could make a brief breakdown on what to look for in the MU, that'd be great.

That's a tough matchup, definitely. I used to hate it alot. The main thing you gotta remember is, be patient. The more patient player in this matchup will most likely win. Dash dance alot, making sure to weave out of his attacks, so you can get an opportunity to grab or something else you want. Tech chase with grabs as much as possible, dthrow and fthrow. Uthrow at about 40 will give you a utilt. If he is above you and to the side a bit, always fsmash. Use alot of dtilt to get inside him and go for the grab. Uthrow him onto platforms so you can get a combo or a platform chaingrab. Fair combos are good. Don't space double fairs for no reason, a good falcon will grab/hit you in between the two. If you get a short hop fair, following up with uair is good, it gets him in the air which is where you want him. In the air in hitstun. Combo food.

 

[t-iceman]

you can't SDI a throw.

I said up tilt. I was referring to 2 different scenarios the first one was shine if the marth is not grabbing frame perfect. Second is at 30% after an up throw marth should always go for an up tilt and I wasn't sure if you could sdi to get away from marth via the up tilt.

 

[FoxLisk]

That's a tough matchup, definitely. I used to hate it alot. The main thing you gotta remember is, be patient. The more patient player in this matchup will most likely win. Dash dance alot, making sure to weave out of his attacks, so you can get an opportunity to grab or something else you want.

true

If he is above you and to the side a bit, always fsmash.

Anything ending in "always ___," especially always throw a highly laggy move, should be considered extremely suspect. If you do this once or twice the CF will jump into that space and then DJ and come down with a stomp and ****ing kill you.

Use alot of dtilt to get inside him and go for the grab.

yah, do, until he notices you are and starts to jump over you and ****ing kill you. be careful, CF is a ****ty character so good CFs are relying on their speed and movement tricks to bait things like this.

Don't space double fairs for no reason, a good opponent will grab/hit you in between the two.

(or just CC the first one)

If you get a short hop fair, following up with uair is good, it gets him in the air which is where you want him. In the air in hitstun. Combo food.

that might or might not be true, but i can guarantee that there are situations where it's not. I can also take a wild guess that this will cause more harm than help to most new players as how to get the short hop fair to land in the first place is a much bigger concern.


CF can't ever really approach you. His only approach with a decent amount of priority is nair, which is beaten cold by CC up to some ridiculous percent. He's generally moving around trying to bait a laggy action from you that he can grab or stomp to start a combo. He's like 10x faster than you, so you have to make sure you limit those laggy actions a lot so he doesnt get more first hits than you; if he does, you're gonna lose. You have to force him to commit to something through a combination of camping, safe aerials (that he tries to punish), and pressure (mostly spatial) and then hit him. After you hit him, your major goal is to get him off stage. A CF at 120% on stage is far more of a threat than a CF at 20% off stage.

idk why im even posting this...

 

[Metal Reeper]

^ Hah I like your posts Foxlisk

I agree with don't double fair your butt off.
Marth is really good at threatening space without even randomly spacing attacks. Get close enough to scare them, then they will do something like, try to jump over you/roll/attack. Then just wait and react.

/Matchups

 

[Juno McGrath]

Hey foxlisk play me at my tournament and help me get betttter :D

 

[FoxLisk]

im moving to boston this weekend... probably no more NC tournaments for me anytime soon

 

[t3h Icy]

Tippers are good for all match-ups and fully charged Shield Breaker is good for Jigglypuff.

 

[Winston]

I can't think of any matchup among the decent characters where double fairing a lot is good. It should go without saying that it's not a good idea vs. one of the fastest and most lethal.

 

[Eggz]

no one anti name searches me

 

[Juno McGrath]

GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT DAMN get ****ed up by eggs

 

[stopNstart]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=226822

 

[Lanstar]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=226822

^This^

What was wrong with the other Marth match-up thread?

 

[Teczer0]

Uhhh nothing I guess?

I dunno, I'd prefer if just one was stickied.

Doesn't matter which one to me.

 

[stopNstart]

I only posted that cuz i thought we could get the best information this way. since thats really old, maybe somethings changed idk haha but it does have a lot of helpful info

 

[Lanstar]

Uhhh nothing I guess?

I dunno, I'd prefer if just one was stickied.

Doesn't matter which one to me.

Why not make topic, put links to both threads, label the older one as "old" in parenthesis's next to it's link, name the thread something along the lines of "Marth match-up guides", and then sticky that. You could also add any future match-up guides made to that thread :3

 

[Zinth]

The old matchup thread did help me out a lot when I decided to get serious about Melee again (after having had the Barwls for awhile). It also contains collected insights from M2K, Cactuar, and other great Marth players, which is pretty valuable, so I think that it should definitely be kept around, at least in a link on the OP.

 

[Teczer0]

The old matchup thread did help me out a lot when I decided to get serious about Melee again (after having had the Barwls for awhile). It also contains collected insights from M2K, Cactuar, and other great Marth players, which is pretty valuable, so I think that it should definitely be kept around, at least in a link on the OP.

Ok, done. Added to the bottom of the first post.

If anyone else has suggestions, lemme know.

 

[goateeguy]

Tip I've picked up on Marth v. Shiek: I know you've only discussed neutral stages for the most part, but one very useful CP I've found is Kongo Jungle 64.

The tricky edge makes her recovery difficult (more so than marth's anyway) setting her up for edgeguards. If a Shiek isn't confident it can make the edge without phasing through it, they really only have two options besides praying for the barrel: teleport right next to you or up onto the top platform. If they go next to you they get fsmashed or thrown off the edge again. If they go up, it's often possible to punish the landing lag with at least an aerial.

The lower section of the central platform makes it possible to avoid needles and can interfere with some of shiek's approach options. They can't use standing needles (they'd miss) or aerial (since they'd be jumping above you). They don't have much of an approach. Controlling that center section helps Marth immensely.

Additionally, the rotating platforms in the center (the area you should try to stay in) can be a godsend when stuck in a dthrow combo. It won't always work just because they aren't always there, but often I've found that this only makes it more surprising to the Shiek when it does work. The best part is that it moves upwards, preventing an aerial follow-up if the Shiek doesn't hop up for one right away.

 

[Dior]

Marth Vs. Peach Needs to be added asap!

 

[FoxLisk]

i think sange pretty much quit so if you guys want more knowledge in here you'll have to generate it yourselves. just to let you know. im not really speaking on his account but he hasn't been playing for a month or two.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

i think sange pretty much quit so if you guys want more knowledge in here you'll have to generate it yourselves. just to let you know. im not really speaking on his account but he hasn't been playing for a month or two.

Damn that sucks.

Oh well.

 

[JediSange]

i think sange pretty much quit so if you guys want more knowledge in here you'll have to generate it yourselves. just to let you know. im not really speaking on his account but he hasn't been playing for a month or two.

I live, I live. I've just been very busy with school and other stuff. I play, but only with the locals... I don't make it up to play with Mahone/Redd very much anymore. I went up to VT for a tournament called 2-UP today and came home and added more to my guide.

The Peach/Falcon matchups should be posted sometime after finals are done (early May).

 

[JediSange]

People in general don't account for the way matchups change between levels of play. At low level play, Marth vs Spacies is like 70-30 in Marth's favor. At top level play, spacies have an advantage. Everything is relative to the level of play being addressed.

I disagree with this on both ends to some extent. I don't think it's clear that spacies have the advantage, but that is very subjective (both ways). And in terms of level of play, I agree somewhat. However, it is my belief that this guide covers the play level of people trying to make bracket at bigger tournaments. That could be mistaken, but it is how I feel of my knowledge.

IE: I don't walk away from matches saying "Man, I wish I knew more." I walk away knowing what I did wrong, why it happened, and realizing that my tech skill sucks =(

 

[stopNstart]

for the peach match up.

I think a stage to watch out for also is kongo jungle
and since peaches 95% of the time ban yoshi's, i really like either pokemon (small blast stages) or final for counterpicking
I realized dash attack after fthrow around 20%-80% (not entirely sure here) is pretty sick unless they're dumb and DI in (just fsmash or something) you can also follow up wit fair sometimes.

when peach is recovering , stand sorta near the ledge
if she's really high (and high %) bair her away (m2k sometimes uses shield breaker) (or dair if you're lucky)
when shes coming pretty low just keep jabbin/d-tiltin her
when they kinda float above you, they're lookin for that fsmash, wait a lil, if they spot dodge, just follow n ****, if they go for fair you might counter or just fair back early idk mix it up.

im not sure how much of this works, but this is generally what i do, and i suck lol but i thought edgeguarding peach is something we can discuss since its a pain in the ***.

 

[Juno McGrath]

To be honest with you, my honest opinion is, if you fmsash peach off the stage, and manage to hit her out of float, you should do 80 damage to her before she can touch the ground.

marths moveset is just built to keep peach off the stage imo.

 

[JediSange]

To be honest with you, my honest opinion is, if you fmsash peach off the stage, and manage to hit her out of float, you should do 80 damage to her before she can touch the ground.

marths moveset is just built to keep peach off the stage imo.

Agree 100% with this. The goal of the matchup is to never let her touch the ground.